MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Evil96
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Portogruaro, VE IT
6/13/2024 2:24am

New ZEB is gonna arrive TODAY lads. 

Let’s hope the new charger 3.1 is actually an upgrade from the 2.1 unlike the 3

1
Primoz
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SI
6/13/2024 5:07am

An upgrade kit is actually available for Charger 3 dampers.

1
Sakes
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6/13/2015
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NL
6/13/2024 5:16am Edited Date/Time 6/13/2024 5:17am

It's great they give you the option to 'uprade' the damper instead of having to buy a whole new damper.

charger 3 1 rc2 piston upgrade kit.width-1920 0charger 3 1 damper shim tune kit .width-1920

11
6/13/2024 6:15am
Sakes wrote:
It's great they give you the option to 'uprade' the damper instead of having to buy a whole new damper.

It's great they give you the option to 'uprade' the damper instead of having to buy a whole new damper.

charger 3 1 rc2 piston upgrade kit.width-1920 0charger 3 1 damper shim tune kit .width-1920

This a massive win from them. If only the drive train side of SRAM approached upgrades/replacement parts with the same process as the suspension side. 

 

Also more damping! About time, still should be more 

10
Snfoilhat
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Berkeley, CA US
6/13/2024 8:35am
sspomer wrote:
rockshox stuff from our end     article - https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/rockshox-announces-charger-3-1-damper-vivid-coil-and-updates-super-deluxe

How does less low speed compression damping increase traction? Throughout the press release it’s written like that’s a known thing. How do we know that, please?

1
Dave_Camp
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8/25/2009
Location
CO US
6/13/2024 9:06am Edited Date/Time 6/13/2024 9:07am

I’ve always understood less damping = more tire traction at the cost of chassis control, bottoming out etc.

always within reason of course- a pogo stick will bounce off the ground and lose traction.  The race tech suspension bible had some good graphic representation of that. 

7
TheFBI
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5/20/2024
Location
London GB
6/13/2024 9:43am
sspomer wrote:
rockshox stuff from our end     article - https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/rockshox-announces-charger-3-1-damper-vivid-coil-and-updates-super-deluxe
Snfoilhat wrote:

How does less low speed compression damping increase traction? Throughout the press release it’s written like that’s a known thing. How do we know that, please?

Interesting that Fox are going the other way and adding more damping with their products. I've heard from tuners that an under-damped fork can mean the tyre rebounds off obstacles without enough damping to control it, and briefly loses contact with the ground, which breaks traction. 

3
TimBud
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GB
6/13/2024 9:46am
Dave_Camp wrote:
I’ve always understood less damping = more tire traction at the cost of chassis control, bottoming out etc. always within reason of course- a pogo stick...

I’ve always understood less damping = more tire traction at the cost of chassis control, bottoming out etc.

always within reason of course- a pogo stick will bounce off the ground and lose traction.  The race tech suspension bible had some good graphic representation of that. 

Indeed.

To add to that- if "you" find that you're washing out in corners on the front, that can sometimes be helped by increasing lsc on the shock (assuming it's not a technique issue). So maybe that's what they're referring to here? 

The blanket statement that increased lsc can improve traction is a bit misleading. 

 

2
pheller
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US
6/13/2024 9:50am Edited Date/Time 6/13/2024 10:23am

Rudimentary Understanding:

Low Speed Compression is the resistance against a slow shaft speed movement, so pedaling, or going off a drop. 

High Speed Compression is the resistance against a high shaft speed movement, so a chunky downhill. 

The trick is, what's "high speed" for me might be "low speed" for someone else. 

Bike suspension tuning was always chasing less pedalling movement while still maintaining traction at speed with comfortable landings after drops. We ended up with preloaded shim stacks, poppits and others ways of controlling movement while still allowing comfort on landings, but on some dampers they didn't react fast enough (slow transitions between damping circuits) and they still felt harsh. 

I think we're finally moving away caring so much about pedaling movement, and being able to dial it out other ways. 

Perfect suspension would be no (or virtually no) low speed damping, plenty of high speed damping, slow rebound for drops, but fast rebound everywhere else. Oh, and perfect spring rate. There is always going to be some adjustment necessary based on changing terrain, and getting all of that into a tiny little package of a bike fork is challenging. 

1
15
gibbon
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wales GB
6/13/2024 10:02am

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1
ethanrevitch
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Bellingham , WA US
6/13/2024 10:21am

New ZEB is gonna arrive TODAY lads. 

Evil96 wrote:

Let’s hope the new charger 3.1 is actually an upgrade from the 2.1 unlike the 3

How’s the 2.1 to 3 not an upgrade? It was a full damper redesign. So in your case the 3 to 3.1 will be even less of an upgrade most likely. 

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pheller
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6/13/2024 10:24am

Sorry for a sec there I was caught in some rain

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DServy
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Location
Jackson, WY US
6/13/2024 10:40am

New ZEB is gonna arrive TODAY lads. 

Evil96 wrote:

Let’s hope the new charger 3.1 is actually an upgrade from the 2.1 unlike the 3

How’s the 2.1 to 3 not an upgrade? It was a full damper redesign. So in your case the 3 to 3.1 will be even less...

How’s the 2.1 to 3 not an upgrade? It was a full damper redesign. So in your case the 3 to 3.1 will be even less of an upgrade most likely. 

I think the phrase is "just because its new doesn't mean is better"

Anyone have any ETA on when the 38 Grip X2 Damper upgrade might be available? its now officially "mid June"

7
Finkill
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9/2/2015
Location
GB
6/13/2024 10:51am

New ZEB is gonna arrive TODAY lads. 

Evil96 wrote:

Let’s hope the new charger 3.1 is actually an upgrade from the 2.1 unlike the 3

How’s the 2.1 to 3 not an upgrade? It was a full damper redesign. So in your case the 3 to 3.1 will be even less...

How’s the 2.1 to 3 not an upgrade? It was a full damper redesign. So in your case the 3 to 3.1 will be even less of an upgrade most likely. 

I found the Charger 3 to be very harsh in a lot of situations. Did a lot of work to try and get a setup that worked but ultimately failed and put a 2.1 damper in my Zebs. The 2.1 damper is much better in my experience. Hopefully the 3.1 is a step up in performance. 

6
1
bikelurker
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Bilbao, Vizcaya ES
6/13/2024 12:00pm

I think the most inportant thing is not that they updated the charger 3 damper, but that they will offer a tunning kit for it, so you can actually make  changes to the shim stack in order to adapt the damm thing to your riding style and preferences 

3
ethanrevitch
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Bellingham , WA US
6/13/2024 12:10pm
bikelurker wrote:
I think the most inportant thing is not that they updated the charger 3 damper, but that they will offer a tunning kit for it, so...

I think the most inportant thing is not that they updated the charger 3 damper, but that they will offer a tunning kit for it, so you can actually make  changes to the shim stack in order to adapt the damm thing to your riding style and preferences 

That’s what I’m most excited in the fork. I’m gunna try to get my hands on one when I need a 200hr rebuild. 

1
14
yzedf
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Location
Hebron, CT US
6/13/2024 1:21pm
Finkill wrote:
I found the Charger 3 to be very harsh in a lot of situations. Did a lot of work to try and get a setup that...

I found the Charger 3 to be very harsh in a lot of situations. Did a lot of work to try and get a setup that worked but ultimately failed and put a 2.1 damper in my Zebs. The 2.1 damper is much better in my experience. Hopefully the 3.1 is a step up in performance. 

Sad part is the 2.1 wasn’t that great. 

3
Finkill
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Location
GB
6/13/2024 1:24pm
Finkill wrote:
I found the Charger 3 to be very harsh in a lot of situations. Did a lot of work to try and get a setup that...

I found the Charger 3 to be very harsh in a lot of situations. Did a lot of work to try and get a setup that worked but ultimately failed and put a 2.1 damper in my Zebs. The 2.1 damper is much better in my experience. Hopefully the 3.1 is a step up in performance. 

yzedf wrote:

Sad part is the 2.1 wasn’t that great. 

Indeed. Got it cheap as a stopgap, hopefully the 3.1 is good and I can move onto that, or I will look at other non rockshox options. 

1
yzedf
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Hebron, CT US
6/13/2024 1:41pm
Finkill wrote:
I found the Charger 3 to be very harsh in a lot of situations. Did a lot of work to try and get a setup that...

I found the Charger 3 to be very harsh in a lot of situations. Did a lot of work to try and get a setup that worked but ultimately failed and put a 2.1 damper in my Zebs. The 2.1 damper is much better in my experience. Hopefully the 3.1 is a step up in performance. 

yzedf wrote:

Sad part is the 2.1 wasn’t that great. 

Finkill wrote:
Indeed. Got it cheap as a stopgap, hopefully the 3.1 is good and I can move onto that, or I will look at other non rockshox...

Indeed. Got it cheap as a stopgap, hopefully the 3.1 is good and I can move onto that, or I will look at other non rockshox options. 

I gave up and went with Avalanche. 

3
6/13/2024 4:18pm Edited Date/Time 6/13/2024 5:33pm

The marketing team at SRAM says, "The new Linear XL Air Can is the one air can to span them all, bridging the gap between linear and progressive. This improved air can doesn’t sacrifice tunability, either. With room for a total of eight Bottomless Tokens, the air volume can be adjusted to fine-tune feel. It’s the upgrade your shock’s been waiting for."

As far as I can tell, progressive air cans for a super deluxe with a stroke of 57.5 to 65 have been out of stock everywhere for at least six months. 

Anyone know if the Linear XL is suppose to be the only aftermarket option going forward, and you just stuff a bunch of tokens in the positive chamber to create the old progressive air can?  Looks like that's the case?  If not, anyone know why the progressive cans have been unavailable for so long?  

Here's a wonderful graph from SRAM:

Whoops, wrong one.  Here it is.  

 Looks like the new super deluxe only goes up a 65 stroke.  Think the prior version went to 75.  Either way, not sure what's going on with the x-axis labeling.

But more importantly, if this graph says what I think it does, why the hell aren't they just shipping the new shocks with the Linear XL can?

 

8
1llumA
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Location
CA
6/13/2024 6:10pm
The marketing team at SRAM says, "The new Linear XL Air Can is the one air can to span them all, bridging the gap between...

The marketing team at SRAM says, "The new Linear XL Air Can is the one air can to span them all, bridging the gap between linear and progressive. This improved air can doesn’t sacrifice tunability, either. With room for a total of eight Bottomless Tokens, the air volume can be adjusted to fine-tune feel. It’s the upgrade your shock’s been waiting for."

As far as I can tell, progressive air cans for a super deluxe with a stroke of 57.5 to 65 have been out of stock everywhere for at least six months. 

Anyone know if the Linear XL is suppose to be the only aftermarket option going forward, and you just stuff a bunch of tokens in the positive chamber to create the old progressive air can?  Looks like that's the case?  If not, anyone know why the progressive cans have been unavailable for so long?  

Here's a wonderful graph from SRAM:

Whoops, wrong one.  Here it is.  

 Looks like the new super deluxe only goes up a 65 stroke.  Think the prior version went to 75.  Either way, not sure what's going on with the x-axis labeling.

But more importantly, if this graph says what I think it does, why the hell aren't they just shipping the new shocks with the Linear XL can?

 

75mm stroke super deluxe were a stop gap for DH bike until the new vivid was launched. Now that both Vivid coil and Vivid air are available there is no value for Rockshox to keep making the superdeluxe air/coil in 75mm stroke size.

Air can option for OEM spec is always up to the bike brand PM.

2
6/13/2024 6:13pm
The marketing team at SRAM says, "The new Linear XL Air Can is the one air can to span them all, bridging the gap between...

The marketing team at SRAM says, "The new Linear XL Air Can is the one air can to span them all, bridging the gap between linear and progressive. This improved air can doesn’t sacrifice tunability, either. With room for a total of eight Bottomless Tokens, the air volume can be adjusted to fine-tune feel. It’s the upgrade your shock’s been waiting for."

As far as I can tell, progressive air cans for a super deluxe with a stroke of 57.5 to 65 have been out of stock everywhere for at least six months. 

Anyone know if the Linear XL is suppose to be the only aftermarket option going forward, and you just stuff a bunch of tokens in the positive chamber to create the old progressive air can?  Looks like that's the case?  If not, anyone know why the progressive cans have been unavailable for so long?  

Here's a wonderful graph from SRAM:

Whoops, wrong one.  Here it is.  

 Looks like the new super deluxe only goes up a 65 stroke.  Think the prior version went to 75.  Either way, not sure what's going on with the x-axis labeling.

But more importantly, if this graph says what I think it does, why the hell aren't they just shipping the new shocks with the Linear XL can?

 

I'm interested to see how the new Linear XL can with a bunch of spacers in it will stack up to the old megneg setup. I had the old SDU and found the Megneg to be night and day. Now that I'm on the MY23 version with the linear aircan, I'm missing that feeling to an extent.

1
6/13/2024 6:20pm
The marketing team at SRAM says, "The new Linear XL Air Can is the one air can to span them all, bridging the gap between...

The marketing team at SRAM says, "The new Linear XL Air Can is the one air can to span them all, bridging the gap between linear and progressive. This improved air can doesn’t sacrifice tunability, either. With room for a total of eight Bottomless Tokens, the air volume can be adjusted to fine-tune feel. It’s the upgrade your shock’s been waiting for."

As far as I can tell, progressive air cans for a super deluxe with a stroke of 57.5 to 65 have been out of stock everywhere for at least six months. 

Anyone know if the Linear XL is suppose to be the only aftermarket option going forward, and you just stuff a bunch of tokens in the positive chamber to create the old progressive air can?  Looks like that's the case?  If not, anyone know why the progressive cans have been unavailable for so long?  

Here's a wonderful graph from SRAM:

Whoops, wrong one.  Here it is.  

 Looks like the new super deluxe only goes up a 65 stroke.  Think the prior version went to 75.  Either way, not sure what's going on with the x-axis labeling.

But more importantly, if this graph says what I think it does, why the hell aren't they just shipping the new shocks with the Linear XL can?

 

1llumA wrote:
75mm stroke super deluxe were a stop gap for DH bike until the new vivid was launched. Now that both Vivid coil and Vivid air are...

75mm stroke super deluxe were a stop gap for DH bike until the new vivid was launched. Now that both Vivid coil and Vivid air are available there is no value for Rockshox to keep making the superdeluxe air/coil in 75mm stroke size.

Air can option for OEM spec is always up to the bike brand PM.

Yep, but if you assume the values on the x-axis are a typo, then it'd go 80, 90, and end at 100.  My point was it doesn't make sense either way.

On the air can spec, as far as I understand suspension, the light blue line is superior to the bright red line for pretty much every rider.  Unless I'm missing something, seems like all the standard air can does is limit your tunability on the progressive side, fit flight attendant, and save something like 15 grams.

Uncle Cliffy
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Location
Medford, OR US
6/13/2024 6:50pm Edited Date/Time 6/13/2024 8:14pm

Every product release it’s the same story. We’ve done this we’ve done that, yada yada. Thing is, they are trying to cater to a broad market. New riders and advanced riders all in the same bucket with only 10 clicks to separate them. As bikes change and skills advance more quickly, this assembly line damping process struggles to keep up with the changes.

None of the fork companies would ever do this, but wouldn’t it be interesting if they just offered a chassis? You could build the forks tuning from the ground up with whatever tuner you think is best…

13
dknapton
Posts
54
Joined
11/5/2020
Location
CA
6/13/2024 7:58pm
Evil96 wrote:

Let’s hope the new charger 3.1 is actually an upgrade from the 2.1 unlike the 3

How’s the 2.1 to 3 not an upgrade? It was a full damper redesign. So in your case the 3 to 3.1 will be even less...

How’s the 2.1 to 3 not an upgrade? It was a full damper redesign. So in your case the 3 to 3.1 will be even less of an upgrade most likely. 

Finkill wrote:
I found the Charger 3 to be very harsh in a lot of situations. Did a lot of work to try and get a setup that...

I found the Charger 3 to be very harsh in a lot of situations. Did a lot of work to try and get a setup that worked but ultimately failed and put a 2.1 damper in my Zebs. The 2.1 damper is much better in my experience. Hopefully the 3.1 is a step up in performance. 

Did you ever get a full service done on it? Mine felt the same way when I first got it, took it to Fluid Function (a rockshox service center) thinking there was something wrong with it. They did a full tear down and there was nothing wrong, but it came back feeling 100 times better. Was able to run the recommended pressure now, where before i had to go way less in order to not feel way harsh. 

5
6/13/2024 9:47pm
Every product release it’s the same story. We’ve done this we’ve done that, yada yada. Thing is, they are trying to cater to a broad market...

Every product release it’s the same story. We’ve done this we’ve done that, yada yada. Thing is, they are trying to cater to a broad market. New riders and advanced riders all in the same bucket with only 10 clicks to separate them. As bikes change and skills advance more quickly, this assembly line damping process struggles to keep up with the changes.

None of the fork companies would ever do this, but wouldn’t it be interesting if they just offered a chassis? You could build the forks tuning from the ground up with whatever tuner you think is best…

In europe we have this a bit funky webshop called RCZ in luxemburg, which does firesale on bike parts they taken apart from few year old stock completes. The prices are pretty hilarious at times. I bought a zeb select for 259e, had it shipped straight from RCZ to m-suspensiontech in germany and for 400e I had zeb with custom built damper. 

7
1
Primoz
Posts
4522
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
6/13/2024 10:31pm
Every product release it’s the same story. We’ve done this we’ve done that, yada yada. Thing is, they are trying to cater to a broad market...

Every product release it’s the same story. We’ve done this we’ve done that, yada yada. Thing is, they are trying to cater to a broad market. New riders and advanced riders all in the same bucket with only 10 clicks to separate them. As bikes change and skills advance more quickly, this assembly line damping process struggles to keep up with the changes.

None of the fork companies would ever do this, but wouldn’t it be interesting if they just offered a chassis? You could build the forks tuning from the ground up with whatever tuner you think is best…

Even being able to buy a shock in the aftermarket that actually fits the design parameters of your bike would be wonderful... Though what you want is possible, you can buy a CSU and the lowers separately, it's just gonna cost more than a complete fork.

3
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