MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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monarchmason
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Nevada City, CA US
12/4/2023 7:29am
ENHANCE!

ENHANCE!IMG 5015.jpeg?VersionId=97e8wwHlEUr4tqmpt1F T wWRt5g

austin-NC wrote:
Wireless brake tech certainly wouldn't be all that complicated. Small motor controlling a little piston that pushes fluid into the calipers. But there is a ton...

Wireless brake tech certainly wouldn't be all that complicated. Small motor controlling a little piston that pushes fluid into the calipers. But there is a ton of drawbacks and zero benefits besides no cables (who cares)

Lag time from lever to brakes, no real way to create brake feel, you are adding weight in general but all the weight you are adding is unsprung weight. 

Not entirely. One biiiig thing I see is being able to program your lever stroke. I hate shimano brakes due to 99% of the stroke feeling dead then that last 1% is like full lock up it seems. Im not someone who can utilize this. I like to feel a good curve of power. Afterall a good brake should not stop you, but slow you down precisely so youre faster. At least that is my belief. 

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Dave_Camp
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12/4/2023 7:51am Edited Date/Time 12/4/2023 7:51am

Liability of wireless brakes is terrifying… I don’t think any cars are doing fully electric brakes yet? 
 

cool if someone can make it happen though 

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nskerb
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12/4/2023 8:45am

Looks heavy. 

Losifer
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Fantasy
12/4/2023 9:29am
Forbidden posted this today.  Song on the story is “supanaught”. Sounds like the dh bike is days away :) 

IMG 3775 0Forbidden posted this today.  Song on the story is “supanaught”. Sounds like the dh bike is days away Smile  

As much as I appreciate the use of the original version of Supernaut, I kinda wish they'd used the 1000 Homo DJs cover.

 

 

Definitely a high pivot gravel bike...

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12/4/2023 11:18am
Hi. A mate said it would be worth posting this on here. I was out riding in the forest of dean at the weekend with my...

IMG 1012.jpg?VersionId=1rj4P44 DQMA9pTC6ffHi. A mate said it would be worth posting this on here. I was out riding in the forest of dean at the weekend with my mates, and spotted a guy riding with some strange ass brakes. I couldn't see cables running up to the bar. I tried to get a quick photo, but this was all I could manage. Maybe ABS or wireless brakes?! 

Accelerometer for Fox Live valve REAR shock. (not front fork). Seems like it bolts onto ---existing---disc brake tab mounts for universal retrofit. 

If so, and sold as a "bolt-on upgrade" for ANY bike, it is a slick product. An especially slick product as we enter an era where consumers "upgrade rather than replace" their bikes.

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Yoda
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12/4/2023 12:58pm

FC7EC6FC-031F-43B7-A951-9AEC57C406DB.jpeg?VersionId=bJipxBrendog’s new ransom?

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12/4/2023 1:15pm
Dave_Camp wrote:

Liability of wireless brakes is terrifying… I don’t think any cars are doing fully electric brakes yet? 
 

cool if someone can make it happen though 

The Alfa Guila is fully brake by wire. The Infinity Q50 is steer by wire.

The Infinity is required to have a physical backup, but I haven't heard if there is a backup system for the brakes in the Alfa. Most reviewers complained about the lack of modulation at low speeds making it hard to smoothly stop the Alpha. 

 

Almost all modern cars with some kind of driver's assistance including emergency braking have electronic control of the brakes. Most are a tradition braking system with additional computer input not pure brake by wire though. 

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WhoKnows
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12/4/2023 1:37pm
Dave_Camp wrote:

Liability of wireless brakes is terrifying… I don’t think any cars are doing fully electric brakes yet? 
 

cool if someone can make it happen though 

The Alfa Guila is fully brake by wire. The Infinity Q50 is steer by wire. The Infinity is required to have a physical backup, but I...

The Alfa Guila is fully brake by wire. The Infinity Q50 is steer by wire.

The Infinity is required to have a physical backup, but I haven't heard if there is a backup system for the brakes in the Alfa. Most reviewers complained about the lack of modulation at low speeds making it hard to smoothly stop the Alpha. 

 

Almost all modern cars with some kind of driver's assistance including emergency braking have electronic control of the brakes. Most are a tradition braking system with additional computer input not pure brake by wire though. 

I was about to post about how the cybertruck is steer by wire and many manufacturers have expressed interested in brake by wire due to their inherent benefits. Won't be long til brands try it. Still surprised by how eebs don't have wireless remotes to change modes. 

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fluider
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12/4/2023 1:45pm

I think Brembo, or Bosch?, developed brake by wire braking in their electro wheels.

Why are so afraid? Your fighter jets are totally drive by wire almost 30 years. And US techno is top of all, isn't it?

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Uncle Cliffy
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12/4/2023 2:09pm
fluider wrote:
I think Brembo, or Bosch?, developed brake by wire braking in their electro wheels. Why are so afraid? Your fighter jets are totally drive by wire...

I think Brembo, or Bosch?, developed brake by wire braking in their electro wheels.

Why are so afraid? Your fighter jets are totally drive by wire almost 30 years. And US techno is top of all, isn't it?

Did you just compare billion-dollar fighter jets to passenger cars? Silly

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Dave113
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Lafayette, CO US
12/4/2023 2:25pm
Dave_Camp wrote:

Liability of wireless brakes is terrifying… I don’t think any cars are doing fully electric brakes yet? 
 

cool if someone can make it happen though 

The Alfa Guila is fully brake by wire. The Infinity Q50 is steer by wire. The Infinity is required to have a physical backup, but I...

The Alfa Guila is fully brake by wire. The Infinity Q50 is steer by wire.

The Infinity is required to have a physical backup, but I haven't heard if there is a backup system for the brakes in the Alfa. Most reviewers complained about the lack of modulation at low speeds making it hard to smoothly stop the Alpha. 

 

Almost all modern cars with some kind of driver's assistance including emergency braking have electronic control of the brakes. Most are a tradition braking system with additional computer input not pure brake by wire though. 

The new Corvette Z06 is also brake by wire, but most reviewers don't love it compared to conventional brakes. 

I'm fine with hydraulic brakes and even shifting and dropper posts using cables. I don't have problems with it and I don't notice it while riding, so I have doubts it's going to make mtb'ing a better, more fun experience overall. 

OTOH, I did just get a cable-actuated Eagle drivetrain for a REALLY good price, so there's that. Smile

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THIRTYone
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Camas, WA US
12/4/2023 2:27pm

Been out of the forum for awhile so not sure if it’s been posted but just spotted this on a video go pro posted on IG of Jackson… getting away from vpp? Certainly not a “traditional” Santa Cruz

 

Sorry if it’s already been posted* IMG 8166.png?VersionId=wRep9QcN3FpFB

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Primoz
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12/4/2023 2:38pm
Dave_Camp wrote:

Liability of wireless brakes is terrifying… I don’t think any cars are doing fully electric brakes yet? 
 

cool if someone can make it happen though 

Cars are doing it for a while now (Alfa Romeo Gulia was the first one I think), it's the steering that is getting to be fly by wire now, first one of the Lexus cars, now the Cybertruck.

Primoz
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12/4/2023 2:39pm
ENHANCE!

ENHANCE!IMG 5015.jpeg?VersionId=97e8wwHlEUr4tqmpt1F T wWRt5g

austin-NC wrote:
Wireless brake tech certainly wouldn't be all that complicated. Small motor controlling a little piston that pushes fluid into the calipers. But there is a ton...

Wireless brake tech certainly wouldn't be all that complicated. Small motor controlling a little piston that pushes fluid into the calipers. But there is a ton of drawbacks and zero benefits besides no cables (who cares)

Lag time from lever to brakes, no real way to create brake feel, you are adding weight in general but all the weight you are adding is unsprung weight. 

Not entirely. One biiiig thing I see is being able to program your lever stroke. I hate shimano brakes due to 99% of the stroke feeling...

Not entirely. One biiiig thing I see is being able to program your lever stroke. I hate shimano brakes due to 99% of the stroke feeling dead then that last 1% is like full lock up it seems. Im not someone who can utilize this. I like to feel a good curve of power. Afterall a good brake should not stop you, but slow you down precisely so youre faster. At least that is my belief. 

Scrap the Shimanos and go Code RSC then Tongue

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Primoz
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12/4/2023 2:42pm
THIRTYone wrote:
Been out of the forum for awhile so not sure if it’s been posted but just spotted this on a video go pro posted on IG...

Been out of the forum for awhile so not sure if it’s been posted but just spotted this on a video go pro posted on IG of Jackson… getting away from vpp? Certainly not a “traditional” Santa Cruz

 

Sorry if it’s already been posted* IMG 8166.png?VersionId=wRep9QcN3FpFB

Doesn't really look like Jackson of today, if Jackson at all. And the bike is a Horst link or a split pivot.

brash
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12/4/2023 3:11pm

you know the saying "it looks like a session"

it's because it is.

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THIRTYone
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Camas, WA US
12/4/2023 3:34pm

Ah yea an old video makes sense. No redbull helmet. It’s certainly Jackson out front, and remy following. But it must be a trek.
 

The video was posted only a few days ago tho, so that’s what threw me off 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0PvPpTPAft/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==

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boozed
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12/4/2023 3:35pm
fluider wrote:
I think Brembo, or Bosch?, developed brake by wire braking in their electro wheels. Why are so afraid? Your fighter jets are totally drive by wire...

I think Brembo, or Bosch?, developed brake by wire braking in their electro wheels.

Why are so afraid? Your fighter jets are totally drive by wire almost 30 years. And US techno is top of all, isn't it?

Did you just compare billion-dollar fighter jets to passenger cars? 

Did you just compare billion-dollar fighter jets to passenger cars? Silly

Not only that, but the military is much more risk tolerant than the general population.  Military aircraft require insane amounts of maintenance and still go catastrophically wrong relatively frequently because of how complex they are.  Their operators accept those risks as part of the job.

Not to mention that fly-by-wire is used in fighter jets to keep them in the air, because they're often so aerodynamically unstable that any human pilot would crash one using traditional controls.  It's not just for the fun of it.

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Kango
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Calgary, AB CA
12/4/2023 9:43pm
Forbidden posted this today.  Song on the story is “supanaught”. Sounds like the dh bike is days away :) 

IMG 3775 0Forbidden posted this today.  Song on the story is “supanaught”. Sounds like the dh bike is days away Smile  

They need to update the Dreadnaught anyways. I bet it will be a 170/170 bike. And maybe different linkages for DH applications.

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bski90
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San Jose, CA US
12/4/2023 10:02pm

Automotive systems have built in redundancy. The BBW and SBW systems have hydraulic and mechanical backups in case of failure. (I'm a brake controls engineer). True brake by wire, electro-mechanical (EPB's), would still have a secondary redundant power source, possibly even a third, to prevent any 'no brake' scenarios.

 

Wireless braking is sketchy and I'd personally never use it. Always have redundancy.

11
fluider
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SK
12/4/2023 10:20pm
fluider wrote:
I think Brembo, or Bosch?, developed brake by wire braking in their electro wheels. Why are so afraid? Your fighter jets are totally drive by wire...

I think Brembo, or Bosch?, developed brake by wire braking in their electro wheels.

Why are so afraid? Your fighter jets are totally drive by wire almost 30 years. And US techno is top of all, isn't it?

Did you just compare billion-dollar fighter jets to passenger cars? 

Did you just compare billion-dollar fighter jets to passenger cars? Silly

No, I just compared electro signals in one metal thread to another metal thread.

1
Primoz
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12/4/2023 10:53pm
bski90 wrote:
Automotive systems have built in redundancy. The BBW and SBW systems have hydraulic and mechanical backups in case of failure. (I'm a brake controls engineer). True...

Automotive systems have built in redundancy. The BBW and SBW systems have hydraulic and mechanical backups in case of failure. (I'm a brake controls engineer). True brake by wire, electro-mechanical (EPB's), would still have a secondary redundant power source, possibly even a third, to prevent any 'no brake' scenarios.

 

Wireless braking is sketchy and I'd personally never use it. Always have redundancy.

Electric power steering motors for example have dual windings so even if one of the two fails, the other can still power the steering. The car of course throws a catastrophic error, probably even goes into limp mode and forces the driver to stop ASAP to prevent any further issues.

The amount of bureaucratic systems in place to develop these kinds of things in automotive fields would probably be quite surprising to many people, on the other hand there are a ton of products in the bike industry where it's really questionable if even the basic FMEA was made at all...

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12/5/2023 5:01am
Dave_Camp wrote:

Liability of wireless brakes is terrifying… I don’t think any cars are doing fully electric brakes yet? 
 

cool if someone can make it happen though 

oohh boys, wireless brakes are not coming to normal bikes due to weight penalty.

The best use case for wireless brakes is the F1 style of brake. You have an engine, motor, some shit that takes power away/recharge batteries when braking. Use that energy before the calipers with abs (on an e-bike you can have it sliding just a bit, never fully locked for example). Lever feel would be something like incresing spring force untill you actuate the brake itself. To be fair, there is a mechanical way of doing that, not even wireless.

 

For the front of the bike, the maximum will be abs. The weight will never be low enough to justify. Also safety since there is no way of braking if there is any problem.

1
dolface
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CA US
12/5/2023 6:14am

Looks to be updated shigura’s. Definitely interesting

From the article:

What's the deal with the brake?

The brakes come from the Alb ra ( Swabian Alb, editor's note&nbspWink . You may know - the three worst diseases of humanity: cholera, leprosy and from the Alb ra ( Swabian joke, editor's note&nbspWink . They come from Steffen Braungardt and he also makes the majority of the milled parts. That's why I have his prototype brake levers here now.

 

Are they fully adjustable?

Exactly! On the one hand, you can adjust the lever ratio, but also the free travel regardless of the grip width. The brake levers are available to fit Magura MT5 or MT7 or for Shimano brake calipers. They will be coming onto the market soon.

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swoopswoop
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Caerphilly GB
12/5/2023 9:08am Edited Date/Time 12/5/2023 9:09am
NotMeAtAll wrote:
oohh boys, wireless brakes are not coming to normal bikes due to weight penalty. The best use case for wireless brakes is the F1 style of...

oohh boys, wireless brakes are not coming to normal bikes due to weight penalty.

The best use case for wireless brakes is the F1 style of brake. You have an engine, motor, some shit that takes power away/recharge batteries when braking. Use that energy before the calipers with abs (on an e-bike you can have it sliding just a bit, never fully locked for example). Lever feel would be something like incresing spring force untill you actuate the brake itself. To be fair, there is a mechanical way of doing that, not even wireless.

 

For the front of the bike, the maximum will be abs. The weight will never be low enough to justify. Also safety since there is no way of braking if there is any problem.

There's no way of braking with hydraulic brakes if they have a problem. It's easier to build a fail safe into a brake like that than it is with a hydraulic system, surely? e.g. if the caliper losses connection to the lever it could be set up automatically apply X amount of force to bring you to a controlled stop. 

 

From personal experience if you encounter a problem with your lever, hose, or caliper on a hydraulic brake, there's nothing you're doing about it. There's no redundancy or safety built into the system at any point in terms of failures. 

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Josnoro
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Bromont, QC CA
12/5/2023 9:49am
THIRTYone wrote:
Been out of the forum for awhile so not sure if it’s been posted but just spotted this on a video go pro posted on IG...

Been out of the forum for awhile so not sure if it’s been posted but just spotted this on a video go pro posted on IG of Jackson… getting away from vpp? Certainly not a “traditional” Santa Cruz

 

Sorry if it’s already been posted* IMG 8166.png?VersionId=wRep9QcN3FpFB

Don't think it has been posted yet. I notice the same in one of latest Metailler video. Looks like a trek.. might borrow a bike. But it seems weird from him to get shown on popular video without SC bike. It looks like a final version of a carbon bike too by the look and risk taken in these drops. Maybe SC thinking of doing a more traditional suspension layout and get rid of that counter rotating upper link which would be odd. Snipaste 2023-12-05 12-35-12

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4
2supple
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Location
Denver, CO US
12/5/2023 9:54am
THIRTYone wrote:
Been out of the forum for awhile so not sure if it’s been posted but just spotted this on a video go pro posted on IG...

Been out of the forum for awhile so not sure if it’s been posted but just spotted this on a video go pro posted on IG of Jackson… getting away from vpp? Certainly not a “traditional” Santa Cruz

 

Sorry if it’s already been posted* IMG 8166.png?VersionId=wRep9QcN3FpFB

Josnoro wrote:
Don't think it has been posted yet. I notice the same in one of latest Metailler video. Looks like a trek.. might borrow a bike. But...

Don't think it has been posted yet. I notice the same in one of latest Metailler video. Looks like a trek.. might borrow a bike. But it seems weird from him to get shown on popular video without SC bike. It looks like a final version of a carbon bike too by the look and risk taken in these drops. Maybe SC thinking of doing a more traditional suspension layout and get rid of that counter rotating upper link which would be odd. Snipaste 2023-12-05 12-35-12

I think I saw a video of him on his Trek Slash from not too long ago. Might be prior gen Slash that he still has from the Trek days. As to why he would be riding that over a SC bike, no idea. 

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motomike
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Linville, NC US
12/5/2023 10:06am

Those 5.10 Kestrel shoes are from ~2019 I believe.

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