It seems to only have 2 tunes available, A or B based on spring rate. And if you are right on the edge (i.e. 500# spring) you might end up in between instead of in the sweet spot of the tune. Not to mention that it doesn't appear to be frame specific any longer. Of course, I don't have all info only what I see at that link, so who knows.
For the same money, I'd still choose an Avy tuned Bomber CR personally. (I did and have one on order)
This fits a really nice spot in the market.
It seems to only have 2 tunes available, A or B based on spring rate. And if...
This fits a really nice spot in the market.
It seems to only have 2 tunes available, A or B based on spring rate. And if you are right on the edge (i.e. 500# spring) you might end up in between instead of in the sweet spot of the tune. Not to mention that it doesn't appear to be frame specific any longer. Of course, I don't have all info only what I see at that link, so who knows.
For the same money, I'd still choose an Avy tuned Bomber CR personally. (I did and have one on order)
the one thing this has over an avy tuned shock is the user adjustable stroke. 5mm isn't a lot, but its something.
This fits a really nice spot in the market.
It seems to only have 2 tunes available, A or B based on spring rate. And if...
This fits a really nice spot in the market.
It seems to only have 2 tunes available, A or B based on spring rate. And if you are right on the edge (i.e. 500# spring) you might end up in between instead of in the sweet spot of the tune. Not to mention that it doesn't appear to be frame specific any longer. Of course, I don't have all info only what I see at that link, so who knows.
For the same money, I'd still choose an Avy tuned Bomber CR personally. (I did and have one on order)
the one thing this has over an avy tuned shock is the user adjustable stroke. 5mm isn't a lot, but its something.
That's not really unique though is it? It's just a spacer behind the bottom out bumper unless you're also changing eye-to-eye. Seems like it would mess with HBO though, I know the EXT should be rebuilt to adjust HBO if you change stroke.
Also HBO. Usefulness depends on the bike, but in the right use case it's really nice to have.
It's not adjustable however and Avy accomplishes the same thing using custom shaped & density bumpers for your specific application. Well except the Avy solution is better because the bumper has a rebound effect consistent with the amount of damping it provides, unlike hydraulic bottom out.
This fits a really nice spot in the market.
It seems to only have 2 tunes available, A or B based on spring rate. And if...
This fits a really nice spot in the market.
It seems to only have 2 tunes available, A or B based on spring rate. And if you are right on the edge (i.e. 500# spring) you might end up in between instead of in the sweet spot of the tune. Not to mention that it doesn't appear to be frame specific any longer. Of course, I don't have all info only what I see at that link, so who knows.
For the same money, I'd still choose an Avy tuned Bomber CR personally. (I did and have one on order)
That's not really unique though is it? It's just a spacer behind the bottom out bumper unless you're also changing eye-to-eye. Seems like it would mess...
That's not really unique though is it? It's just a spacer behind the bottom out bumper unless you're also changing eye-to-eye. Seems like it would mess with HBO though, I know the EXT should be rebuilt to adjust HBO if you change stroke.
didn't mean to infer that it was unique, but that it's not a feature available on any of the shocks that can be tuned by Avy to the best of my knowledge.
That's not really unique though is it? It's just a spacer behind the bottom out bumper unless you're also changing eye-to-eye. Seems like it would mess...
That's not really unique though is it? It's just a spacer behind the bottom out bumper unless you're also changing eye-to-eye. Seems like it would mess with HBO though, I know the EXT should be rebuilt to adjust HBO if you change stroke.
didn't mean to infer that it was unique, but that it's not a feature available on any of the shocks that can be tuned by Avy...
didn't mean to infer that it was unique, but that it's not a feature available on any of the shocks that can be tuned by Avy to the best of my knowledge.
On the Bomber (like pre-21 DHX2's) you'd just have to clamp the shaft, unscrew the rebound eyelet, insert spacer, and reinstalls eyelet. User adjustable as long as you have the right tools
That's not really unique though is it? It's just a spacer behind the bottom out bumper unless you're also changing eye-to-eye. Seems like it would mess...
That's not really unique though is it? It's just a spacer behind the bottom out bumper unless you're also changing eye-to-eye. Seems like it would mess with HBO though, I know the EXT should be rebuilt to adjust HBO if you change stroke.
didn't mean to infer that it was unique, but that it's not a feature available on any of the shocks that can be tuned by Avy...
didn't mean to infer that it was unique, but that it's not a feature available on any of the shocks that can be tuned by Avy to the best of my knowledge.
Yeah IDK what Push's solution is but newer DHX2's are pretty easy with the 2-piece spacer - https://www.ridefox.com/fox17/help.php?m=bike&id=1100
On the Bomber (like pre-21 DHX2's) you'd just have...
On the Bomber (like pre-21 DHX2's) you'd just have to clamp the shaft, unscrew the rebound eyelet, insert spacer, and reinstalls eyelet. User adjustable as long as you have the right tools
Just looked at the full article, it's pretty much just like the newer DHX2's only on the eyelet end instead of the shock body. So a bit easier than the Bomber, and no need for shaft clamps.
That's not really unique though is it? It's just a spacer behind the bottom out bumper unless you're also changing eye-to-eye. Seems like it would mess...
That's not really unique though is it? It's just a spacer behind the bottom out bumper unless you're also changing eye-to-eye. Seems like it would mess with HBO though, I know the EXT should be rebuilt to adjust HBO if you change stroke.
didn't mean to infer that it was unique, but that it's not a feature available on any of the shocks that can be tuned by Avy...
didn't mean to infer that it was unique, but that it's not a feature available on any of the shocks that can be tuned by Avy to the best of my knowledge.
Yeah IDK what Push's solution is but newer DHX2's are pretty easy with the 2-piece spacer - https://www.ridefox.com/fox17/help.php?m=bike&id=1100
On the Bomber (like pre-21 DHX2's) you'd just have...
On the Bomber (like pre-21 DHX2's) you'd just have to clamp the shaft, unscrew the rebound eyelet, insert spacer, and reinstalls eyelet. User adjustable as long as you have the right tools
avy no longer offers the SSD modification for the dh/x2s that have the externally adjustable stroke via the spacer/plate. the sv8 has a similar adjustment for stroke, but the spacers screw in under the bottom out bumper instead of the main shock body
It's not adjustable however and Avy accomplishes the same thing using custom shaped & density bumpers for your specific application. Well except the Avy solution is...
It's not adjustable however and Avy accomplishes the same thing using custom shaped & density bumpers for your specific application. Well except the Avy solution is better because the bumper has a rebound effect consistent with the amount of damping it provides, unlike hydraulic bottom out.
Is the rebound statement part your own theory or something you can back up? Because common theory of HBO is pretty clear in that it offers added rebound damping in the same part of the travel where it ads compression damping(it takes force to disengage cone from the cup), which is considered nice bonus when you get that deep into stroke.
It's not adjustable however and Avy accomplishes the same thing using custom shaped & density bumpers for your specific application. Well except the Avy solution is...
It's not adjustable however and Avy accomplishes the same thing using custom shaped & density bumpers for your specific application. Well except the Avy solution is better because the bumper has a rebound effect consistent with the amount of damping it provides, unlike hydraulic bottom out.
I've owned a couple of Avy tuned shocks as well as the current Super Deluxe with HBO. With HBO you don't need to alter rebound since the HBO only kicks in during compression and doesn't add any spring energy. HBO feels smoother on large drops when you max out travel - like you're landing on a pillow; however as you point out the HBO on the Push is non-adjustable, so how well it will work on any given bike is unknown.
This fits a really nice spot in the market.
It seems to only have 2 tunes available, A or B based on spring rate. And if...
This fits a really nice spot in the market.
It seems to only have 2 tunes available, A or B based on spring rate. And if you are right on the edge (i.e. 500# spring) you might end up in between instead of in the sweet spot of the tune. Not to mention that it doesn't appear to be frame specific any longer. Of course, I don't have all info only what I see at that link, so who knows.
For the same money, I'd still choose an Avy tuned Bomber CR personally. (I did and have one on order)
I'm sure there is a better thread for this 'discussion' but 'e-bikes' already have a name that clearly differentiates them from 'bikes' so there is no...
I'm sure there is a better thread for this 'discussion' but 'e-bikes' already have a name that clearly differentiates them from 'bikes' so there is no need to rename 'bikes' in any way or form.
I've been calling regular bikes "Naturally asperated" for a couple years but it hasn't caught on yet.
The naming convention was determined decades ago. Motorized pedal bikes were called mopeds, full human powered bicycles have and always will be bicycles.
The naming convention was determined decades ago. Motorized pedal bikes were called mopeds, full human powered bicycles have and always will be bicycles.
Please can we just get on with it?
If you want to discuss the differences in bicycles and motorbikes please do that somewhere else.
The naming convention was determined decades ago. Motorized pedal bikes were called mopeds, full human powered bicycles have and always will be bicycles.
This is the most logical thinking that I have seen in the e-bike vs bike naming debate. I'm 100% on board with this.
E-Moped or E-Ped are the only terms I am accepting at this point. Who's with me? lol
The naming convention was determined decades ago. Motorized pedal bikes were called mopeds, full human powered bicycles have and always will be bicycles.
The naming convention was determined decades ago. Motorized pedal bikes were called mopeds, full human powered bicycles have and always will be bicycles.
For those who can't get enough raw alu, Ancillotti's proto is now for sale: Ancillotti bikes. Very sick.
sick indeed. But those GX Transmission cranks look like something off of a department store bike circa 1998. The frame makes these cranks look even worse than usual.
I thought there was no way this was true, but yeah it sure seems like it. It's super sensitive to miniscule changes but there's almost no way...
I thought there was no way this was true, but yeah it sure seems like it. It's super sensitive to miniscule changes but there's almost no way it's actually 170mm, and if anything it's closer to 180mm. I guess sometimes it "rides like it has more travel than it does" because, well, it actually does.
High vs low also influences travel a lot too. Putting it in high increases the eye to eye by 3 mm. If you integrate the leverage...
High vs low also influences travel a lot too. Putting it in high increases the eye to eye by 3 mm. If you integrate the leverage curve for the enduro on our site you get 176mm as well
.
Could you talk more about how the high vs low affects the leverage curve and travel? I went from a ful 29 enduro in high to a mullet with mullet link (which is supposed to be closer to low setting) Bike feels less poppy and I think the spring feels a bit soft.
Could you talk more about how the high vs low affects the leverage curve and travel? I went from a ful 29 enduro in high to...
Could you talk more about how the high vs low affects the leverage curve and travel? I went from a ful 29 enduro in high to a mullet with mullet link (which is supposed to be closer to low setting) Bike feels less poppy and I think the spring feels a bit soft.
Just to try and make sure this little bit makes sense, a yoke is essentially a method to increase the eye-to-eye length of a shock. It is rigidly connected to the shock so increasing the length of the yoke can be viewed as increasing the eye-to-eye. This is also what Specialized flip chips do.
The Enduro is an interesting one because there are a few things going on that can do this. To correct geo for the smaller rear wheel you need to make the shock yoke about 6mm longer. There is not enough clearance to go this far. The longest the shock yoke can be made before clearance becomes an issue is around 4.5mm. The mullet yoke can also only be used in low. It is the max length you can make the yoke/shock member. The difference in effective length of the shock yoke between high and low with the flip chip is 3mm... only a 1.5mm difference between that an a mullet yoke, which works out to a about a 3mm difference in BB height compared to doing the same wheel change with the bike in high. So in reality, the BB ends up being a little lower than the low setting with a 29" rear wheel, which is a fair bit lower than high with a 29" wheel. Looking at how stock in high vs mullet yoke impacts travel/leverage ratio, there actually isn't a massive difference because the total change in length is only 1.5mm. That said, for a given wheel speed input and damping ratio, force as felt at the wheel is inversely proportional to leverage ratio squared. So if you go to middle of travel, spring force as felt at the wheel might be 3% less with the yoke, but damping at the wheel is 7% less for this bike.
Looping back to the bike feeling less poppy and the spring feeling soft, I would say this is most likely the result of the compression damping now being lower as you feel it at the wheel and the bike being slacker. Dropping the rear of the bike shifts some weight to the rear. That alone can make things feel softer. If you've left compression damping untouched that could potentially result in the softer feel as well. That can be remedied by just adding some damping though.
I thought there was no way this was true, but yeah it sure seems like it. It's super sensitive to miniscule changes but there's almost no way...
I thought there was no way this was true, but yeah it sure seems like it. It's super sensitive to miniscule changes but there's almost no way it's actually 170mm, and if anything it's closer to 180mm. I guess sometimes it "rides like it has more travel than it does" because, well, it actually does.
High vs low also influences travel a lot too. Putting it in high increases the eye to eye by 3 mm. If you integrate the leverage...
High vs low also influences travel a lot too. Putting it in high increases the eye to eye by 3 mm. If you integrate the leverage curve for the enduro on our site you get 176mm as well
.
Could you talk more about how the high vs low affects the leverage curve and travel? I went from a ful 29 enduro in high to...
Could you talk more about how the high vs low affects the leverage curve and travel? I went from a ful 29 enduro in high to a mullet with mullet link (which is supposed to be closer to low setting) Bike feels less poppy and I think the spring feels a bit soft.
It's been a little while since I've looked into kinematics stuff and I'm sure the folks at Cascade would have a better answer than me (of course they already replied by the time I finished typing all this out, lol), but here goes:
I assume you're referring to the WRP mullet link, which results in similar geometry to the stock 29" Enduro in Low but also gives it a higher leverage rate throughout its travel (see the graphs here). Since your shock now has more leverage over the wheel, you're getting more travel, and therefore less force at the wheel, from the same shock stroke if I have my math right. Basically as an example, with a higher leverage ratio you would need less force than before to compress the shock a given amount. Normally you'd compensate for this with additional spring force at the shock, and it seems like you can already tell why that is, since the bike feels softer and less poppy.
I've also been interested in exploring the effects of chain tension and anti-squat on the 'poppiness' of a bike, and the WRP link does lower the anti-squat throughout the entire travel, but I'd guess what you're feeling is much more influenced by the change in leverage.
As for general 'High/Low' flip chips, I'd assume the effect generally varies by the implementation, but I'd typically expect the 'Low' position to be more progressive (which would usually be achieved by increasing leverage) since it's intended as a more aggressive geometry. At least one generation of the SC Megatower also had a more progressive end behavior in 'Low' versus 'High', according to PB's old Behind the Numbers here, which might have offset the slightly softer-feeling mid-stroke (again assuming no compensation from the shock). Chances are, though, any of the changes to the leverage curve from a geometry flip chip won't have nearly as noticeable an effect as a dedicated progression chip (think Trek Fuel EX/Session).
TL;DR: Your mullet link also changed the bike's leverage rate; higher leverage = softer; you could try increasing your spring rate to find a better balance between softness and support. (Or try compression first, since the guys at Cascade are much smarter than me, their answer sure seems correct and adjusting compression is way easier anyways if you have a coil
)
Is the rebound statement part your own theory or something you can back up? Because common theory of HBO is pretty clear in that it offers...
Is the rebound statement part your own theory or something you can back up? Because common theory of HBO is pretty clear in that it offers added rebound damping in the same part of the travel where it ads compression damping(it takes force to disengage cone from the cup), which is considered nice bonus when you get that deep into stroke.
It was something that was told to me by a well-known suspension tuner.
Truthfully looking at this new shock a bit more, I just don't get where it fits in with its price point (in spite of my earlier enthusiasm).
Besides the HBO what are you getting that a $280 Bomber doesn't get you? If it came with true custom tuning at that price, I think that would be a fair deal, but as is, nah.
This fits a really nice spot in the market.
It seems to only have 2 tunes available, A or B based on spring rate. And if you are right on the edge (i.e. 500# spring) you might end up in between instead of in the sweet spot of the tune. Not to mention that it doesn't appear to be frame specific any longer. Of course, I don't have all info only what I see at that link, so who knows.
For the same money, I'd still choose an Avy tuned Bomber CR personally. (I did and have one on order)
The Push shock just hit PB as well.
and here at 9am pst, too https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/push-industries-releases-al…
the one thing this has over an avy tuned shock is the user adjustable stroke. 5mm isn't a lot, but its something.
That's not really unique though is it? It's just a spacer behind the bottom out bumper unless you're also changing eye-to-eye. Seems like it would mess with HBO though, I know the EXT should be rebuilt to adjust HBO if you change stroke.
Also HBO. Usefulness depends on the bike, but in the right use case it's really nice to have.
It's not adjustable however and Avy accomplishes the same thing using custom shaped & density bumpers for your specific application. Well except the Avy solution is better because the bumper has a rebound effect consistent with the amount of damping it provides, unlike hydraulic bottom out.
didn't mean to infer that it was unique, but that it's not a feature available on any of the shocks that can be tuned by Avy to the best of my knowledge.
Yeah IDK what Push's solution is but newer DHX2's are pretty easy with the 2-piece spacer - https://www.ridefox.com/fox17/help.php?m=bike&id=1100
On the Bomber (like pre-21 DHX2's) you'd just have to clamp the shaft, unscrew the rebound eyelet, insert spacer, and reinstalls eyelet. User adjustable as long as you have the right tools
Just looked at the full article, it's pretty much just like the newer DHX2's only on the eyelet end instead of the shock body. So a bit easier than the Bomber, and no need for shaft clamps.
avy no longer offers the SSD modification for the dh/x2s that have the externally adjustable stroke via the spacer/plate. the sv8 has a similar adjustment for stroke, but the spacers screw in under the bottom out bumper instead of the main shock body
Is the rebound statement part your own theory or something you can back up? Because common theory of HBO is pretty clear in that it offers added rebound damping in the same part of the travel where it ads compression damping(it takes force to disengage cone from the cup), which is considered nice bonus when you get that deep into stroke.
I've owned a couple of Avy tuned shocks as well as the current Super Deluxe with HBO. With HBO you don't need to alter rebound since the HBO only kicks in during compression and doesn't add any spring energy. HBO feels smoother on large drops when you max out travel - like you're landing on a pillow; however as you point out the HBO on the Push is non-adjustable, so how well it will work on any given bike is unknown.
The naming convention was determined decades ago. Motorized pedal bikes were called mopeds, full human powered bicycles have and always will be bicycles.
Please can we just get on with it?
If you want to discuss the differences in bicycles and motorbikes please do that somewhere else.
This is the most logical thinking that I have seen in the e-bike vs bike naming debate. I'm 100% on board with this.
E-Moped or E-Ped are the only terms I am accepting at this point. Who's with me? lol
This is the bike industry, logic was never part of the equation
I just call them motorcycles😂
For those who can't get enough raw alu, Ancillotti's proto is now for sale: Ancillotti bikes. Very sick.
sick indeed. But those GX Transmission cranks look like something off of a department store bike circa 1998. The frame makes these cranks look even worse than usual.
Is that the new Speshy Enduro?
Could you talk more about how the high vs low affects the leverage curve and travel? I went from a ful 29 enduro in high to a mullet with mullet link (which is supposed to be closer to low setting) Bike feels less poppy and I think the spring feels a bit soft.
Just to try and make sure this little bit makes sense, a yoke is essentially a method to increase the eye-to-eye length of a shock. It is rigidly connected to the shock so increasing the length of the yoke can be viewed as increasing the eye-to-eye. This is also what Specialized flip chips do.
The Enduro is an interesting one because there are a few things going on that can do this. To correct geo for the smaller rear wheel you need to make the shock yoke about 6mm longer. There is not enough clearance to go this far. The longest the shock yoke can be made before clearance becomes an issue is around 4.5mm. The mullet yoke can also only be used in low. It is the max length you can make the yoke/shock member. The difference in effective length of the shock yoke between high and low with the flip chip is 3mm... only a 1.5mm difference between that an a mullet yoke, which works out to a about a 3mm difference in BB height compared to doing the same wheel change with the bike in high. So in reality, the BB ends up being a little lower than the low setting with a 29" rear wheel, which is a fair bit lower than high with a 29" wheel. Looking at how stock in high vs mullet yoke impacts travel/leverage ratio, there actually isn't a massive difference because the total change in length is only 1.5mm. That said, for a given wheel speed input and damping ratio, force as felt at the wheel is inversely proportional to leverage ratio squared. So if you go to middle of travel, spring force as felt at the wheel might be 3% less with the yoke, but damping at the wheel is 7% less for this bike.
Looping back to the bike feeling less poppy and the spring feeling soft, I would say this is most likely the result of the compression damping now being lower as you feel it at the wheel and the bike being slacker. Dropping the rear of the bike shifts some weight to the rear. That alone can make things feel softer. If you've left compression damping untouched that could potentially result in the softer feel as well. That can be remedied by just adding some damping though.
It's been a little while since I've looked into kinematics stuff and I'm sure the folks at Cascade would have a better answer than me (of course they already replied by the time I finished typing all this out, lol), but here goes:
I assume you're referring to the WRP mullet link, which results in similar geometry to the stock 29" Enduro in Low but also gives it a higher leverage rate throughout its travel (see the graphs here). Since your shock now has more leverage over the wheel, you're getting more travel, and therefore less force at the wheel, from the same shock stroke if I have my math right. Basically as an example, with a higher leverage ratio you would need less force than before to compress the shock a given amount. Normally you'd compensate for this with additional spring force at the shock, and it seems like you can already tell why that is, since the bike feels softer and less poppy.
I've also been interested in exploring the effects of chain tension and anti-squat on the 'poppiness' of a bike, and the WRP link does lower the anti-squat throughout the entire travel, but I'd guess what you're feeling is much more influenced by the change in leverage.
As for general 'High/Low' flip chips, I'd assume the effect generally varies by the implementation, but I'd typically expect the 'Low' position to be more progressive (which would usually be achieved by increasing leverage) since it's intended as a more aggressive geometry. At least one generation of the SC Megatower also had a more progressive end behavior in 'Low' versus 'High', according to PB's old Behind the Numbers here, which might have offset the slightly softer-feeling mid-stroke (again assuming no compensation from the shock). Chances are, though, any of the changes to the leverage curve from a geometry flip chip won't have nearly as noticeable an effect as a dedicated progression chip (think Trek Fuel EX/Session).
TL;DR: Your mullet link also changed the bike's leverage rate; higher leverage = softer; you could try increasing your spring rate to find a better balance between softness and support. (Or try compression first, since the guys at Cascade are much smarter than me, their answer sure seems correct and adjusting compression is way easier anyways if you have a coil
)
Did Ancillotti make a mistake in their website? It's stated the frame has 170mm of rear travel by using a 210x55mm shock, which is not good!
Love this but they are smoking something stroking making a small 462 reach. Too big for me at 5 10
Nicolai Saturn 16 for example in Small has 465-469 reach for their standard frame sizes, so Ancillotti is pretty spot on with their reach numbers.
Here you go:
It was something that was told to me by a well-known suspension tuner.
Truthfully looking at this new shock a bit more, I just don't get where it fits in with its price point (in spite of my earlier enthusiasm).
Besides the HBO what are you getting that a $280 Bomber doesn't get you? If it came with true custom tuning at that price, I think that would be a fair deal, but as is, nah.