The same ones that blow out every few hours and are a complete bitch to clean/grease/replace?
Only time I see needle bearings that last is in the wrist pin on a 2T engine. But that is oiled by the premix and pretty clean. Also high speed lower loading than suspension bits.
"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware...
"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware, where frames allow (8mm ID x 30mm hardware required). This kit also fits the 2023 SuperDeluxe Coil shocks, adding some tuning options to the existing lineup. Bearing mounts can help reduce friction in the linkage, and improve the sensitivity of certain kinematics quite a bit. The Bearing Adapter Kit costs $30 USD."
Interesting to hear a bit more about this one too.
They are similar to the fox ones but thread together and have some sealing/crush ptfe bands in there to hopefully prevent creaking.
Praised be jesus. Just torquing down on the eyelet wouldn't work?
Any ideas on availability? I'm just now waiting for a bearing variant SD as only standard eyelet variants are available (or press in bearing cups), but this would make it a viable solution in the standard eyelet.
Regarding needle bearings, how do you reload them? Roller bearings usually run axially preloaded to take out the slack. Long time running applications also use a soft reload (spring) to keep it constant through the lifetime and temperature range.
Needle bearings are generally only used where a roller or ball bearing wouldn't fit. They are not preloaded or very lightly (usually) also generally not sold as a cartridge, so no inner race (tho hardened steel sleeves for them are sold). Early turner dhr's had needle bearings on the linkages driving the shock, and they rode on unhardend and unpolished steel... As you'd expect they did not do very well in this application. Regardless, I loved both dhr's I had, they were quite good for the time.
I'm speculating here, but perhaps needle bearings are generally more susceptible to contaminant damage because they're long. A ball bearing will often even usually push contaminant particles off to the side rather than crush it or be crushed. A needle bearings doesn't, and crush them. Also the smaller the diameter of the rolling element is the higher the surface pressure at interface.
Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB.
What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm?
Want to try that one day for...
Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB.
What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm?
Want to try that one day for sure on MTB.. Seems some companies have tried just not the big playas!
Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on...
Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on my own bike.
Yes a lot of bikes use needle bearings and they see a lot higher loads and they don't work in exactly clean environment either. Needle bearing in my shock is working just as well as the day I installed it some 3years ago with one grease top up in that time frame being the only maintenance. Terrible durability for sure lol.
Using the crown as a connection could potentially make it possible to use the damper side lowers as a spring as well. In that case the...
Using the crown as a connection could potentially make it possible to use the damper side lowers as a spring as well. In that case the wipers would have to hold the pressure. Unlikely, but the catch is that sealing the stanchion into the crown (and sealing the crown-steerer interface) would be a bit of a challenge, that's why I imagined a connection all the way across could be made. Thus also the lubricating oil.
Searching for how Fox made the 38 spring (they use a cartridge instead of relying on the stanchions as the spring housing) I came across Luft Fusion, which I think makes a lot of sense - a chamber within a chamber layout adding another tube for the piston to seal against with the tube sealing against the stanchion and creating an outer sleeve. The change in volume can easily be tuned to achieve the desired compression ratios both on the positive and negative side, the smaller diameter of the piston requires a bit higher pressure, there is some more weight in the system, but overall it might just work with the likes of a 180 mm Zeb and the progressiveness it's experiencing.
Yes a lot of bikes use needle bearings and they see a lot higher loads and they don't work in exactly clean environment either. Needle bearing...
Yes a lot of bikes use needle bearings and they see a lot higher loads and they don't work in exactly clean environment either. Needle bearing in my shock is working just as well as the day I installed it some 3years ago with one grease top up in that time frame being the only maintenance. Terrible durability for sure lol.
Must be frame specific then, as I weigh 155lb fully kitted, and think I blew through 3-4 needle bearings in about a year on that 2016 Patrol when I had it.
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the pressures are low), but there are hardly any needle bearings out there that come as a cartridge, with seals, they don't carry axial loads (deep groove ball bearings hold up surprisingly well in that regard), etc.
For specific applications they can be great. In a shock eyelet I'd give them a pass. DU bushings are way too cheap and modern bearing mounts work too well (I'm on my original bearings in my Super Deluxe after 4 and a half seasons and 450+k vertical meters of descending).
Only time I see needle bearings that last is in the wrist pin on a 2T engine. But that is oiled by the premix and pretty...
Only time I see needle bearings that last is in the wrist pin on a 2T engine. But that is oiled by the premix and pretty clean. Also high speed lower loading than suspension bits.
What about about Bearings like Moto’s and I think Push uses? Seems like the best solution to me. Allows for misalignment, side loading and of course axial rotation around the mounting bolt.
What about about Bearings like Moto’s and I think Push uses? Seems like the best solution to me. Allows for misalignment, side loading and of course...
What about about Bearings like Moto’s and I think Push uses? Seems like the best solution to me. Allows for misalignment, side loading and of course axial rotation around the mounting bolt.
Spherical bearings were discussed above as well, yes they are superior to every other option in terms of performance, but they don't last too long because they are typically not sealed that well. Argument that you cannot fit them because there isn't enough space is complete bullshit, price and weight, those are real reason, 16mm OD is size used on those shock that use them, vs 15mm standard eyelet.
Been around since Ohlins first partnered with Specialized and discovered the joys of shock yoke extensions (esp. the ones that Specialized used to use that literally bolted the shock to the yoke)
Can’t say I’ve seen this bike before, so I’m guessing it’s something new from fezzari? That’s nik nestoroff on the bike. New dh bike? Or long travel bike with a 40?
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the...
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the pressures are low), but there are hardly any needle bearings out there that come as a cartridge, with seals, they don't carry axial loads (deep groove ball bearings hold up surprisingly well in that regard), etc.
For specific applications they can be great. In a shock eyelet I'd give them a pass. DU bushings are way too cheap and modern bearing mounts work too well (I'm on my original bearings in my Super Deluxe after 4 and a half seasons and 450+k vertical meters of descending).
What happened here was. it a huck to flat or something or did the new GT literally implode ? "There I was just riding along"
It was JRA during a practice run at Val Di Sole if I remember correctly. Granted, a world cup racer's JRA is beyond my mortal abilities. Frame was probably damaged at one point. Forgot details.
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the...
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the pressures are low), but there are hardly any needle bearings out there that come as a cartridge, with seals, they don't carry axial loads (deep groove ball bearings hold up surprisingly well in that regard), etc.
For specific applications they can be great. In a shock eyelet I'd give them a pass. DU bushings are way too cheap and modern bearing mounts work too well (I'm on my original bearings in my Super Deluxe after 4 and a half seasons and 450+k vertical meters of descending).
A big factor would be frame tolerances on cheaper bikes too, the minute you dont have nice alingment and that needle bearing has to take some axial load you would start to get issues.
Push's spherical bearings would be the best solution no?
"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware...
"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware, where frames allow (8mm ID x 30mm hardware required). This kit also fits the 2023 SuperDeluxe Coil shocks, adding some tuning options to the existing lineup. Bearing mounts can help reduce friction in the linkage, and improve the sensitivity of certain kinematics quite a bit. The Bearing Adapter Kit costs $30 USD."
Interesting to hear a bit more about this one too.
The service manual has the how-to installation, might tell you something. Yay to another single use speciality tool!
The new vivid has the option to upgrade the reservoir to go from a select or select+ to ultimate version. I am curious if the same is possible for the Superdeluxe ? I know the ultimate version of the SD reservoir are available as separate purchase but nowhere it says if it's possible and compatible. -A select+ SD air owner that would love to upgrade to ultimate without having to buy a new tuned shock.
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the...
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the pressures are low), but there are hardly any needle bearings out there that come as a cartridge, with seals, they don't carry axial loads (deep groove ball bearings hold up surprisingly well in that regard), etc.
For specific applications they can be great. In a shock eyelet I'd give them a pass. DU bushings are way too cheap and modern bearing mounts work too well (I'm on my original bearings in my Super Deluxe after 4 and a half seasons and 450+k vertical meters of descending).
In this case I think it might have to do with manufacturability too. Machining a square tube and slapping some hard steel on it is easy compared to machining grooves for balls and needle bearings also give torsional support so you can actually steer with the single stanchion fork.
And it's also smooth as hell compared to bushings (apparently).
For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It is 720 grams. The EXT Storia is lighter for this size, but I don't remember off the top of my head the exact weight. Kinda kills the point of an air shock for me if I'm only saving 50 grams.
For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It...
For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It is 720 grams. The EXT Storia is lighter for this size, but I don't remember off the top of my head the exact weight. Kinda kills the point of an air shock for me if I'm only saving 50 grams.
Blister claims 703g for an 8.5 x 2.5" Storia V3 with a 375# spring, so I'd assume the EXT with a spring that would fit you would still be a fair bit heavier than the Vivid. It still isn't terribly far off if you have a light spring weight, though, which is interesting.
I'm just happy he walked away from that. I've got one of those bikes and am not too worried about it. Though I am wondering if the green ones may be cursed. Wyn was on a green one when he crashed and broke his hand, Roger was on a green one. None of the other riders have had any issues (none others are on green ones) things that make you go hmm
For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It...
For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It is 720 grams. The EXT Storia is lighter for this size, but I don't remember off the top of my head the exact weight. Kinda kills the point of an air shock for me if I'm only saving 50 grams.
Are you seriously worried about 50g difference in shock weight on a 63mm stroke shock? I could cut my hair and lose 50g 😂
In my case where in the total system, the bike is maybe 20% of the weight, 50g especially on a performance suspension component is a trade off I’m willing to take.
FWIW, The new Vivid model specific offering refers to the current Slash as (2021-2023) where most other models are 20XX+)
The same ones that blow out every few hours and are a complete bitch to clean/grease/replace?
Only time I see needle bearings that last is in the wrist pin on a 2T engine. But that is oiled by the premix and pretty clean. Also high speed lower loading than suspension bits.
Praised be jesus. Just torquing down on the eyelet wouldn't work?
Any ideas on availability? I'm just now waiting for a bearing variant SD as only standard eyelet variants are available (or press in bearing cups), but this would make it a viable solution in the standard eyelet.
Regarding needle bearings, how do you reload them? Roller bearings usually run axially preloaded to take out the slack. Long time running applications also use a soft reload (spring) to keep it constant through the lifetime and temperature range.
Regrease is pretty easy, replace isnt too bad if you have a vice. They last about as long as a 2t piston
Needle bearings are generally only used where a roller or ball bearing wouldn't fit. They are not preloaded or very lightly (usually) also generally not sold as a cartridge, so no inner race (tho hardened steel sleeves for them are sold). Early turner dhr's had needle bearings on the linkages driving the shock, and they rode on unhardend and unpolished steel... As you'd expect they did not do very well in this application. Regardless, I loved both dhr's I had, they were quite good for the time.
I'm speculating here, but perhaps needle bearings are generally more susceptible to contaminant damage because they're long. A ball bearing will often even usually push contaminant particles off to the side rather than crush it or be crushed. A needle bearings doesn't, and crush them. Also the smaller the diameter of the rolling element is the higher the surface pressure at interface.
Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on my own bike.
Yes a lot of bikes use needle bearings and they see a lot higher loads and they don't work in exactly clean environment either. Needle bearing in my shock is working just as well as the day I installed it some 3years ago with one grease top up in that time frame being the only maintenance. Terrible durability for sure lol.
This is ducking stupid.
Must be frame specific then, as I weigh 155lb fully kitted, and think I blew through 3-4 needle bearings in about a year on that 2016 Patrol when I had it.
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the pressures are low), but there are hardly any needle bearings out there that come as a cartridge, with seals, they don't carry axial loads (deep groove ball bearings hold up surprisingly well in that regard), etc.
For specific applications they can be great. In a shock eyelet I'd give them a pass. DU bushings are way too cheap and modern bearing mounts work too well (I'm on my original bearings in my Super Deluxe after 4 and a half seasons and 450+k vertical meters of descending).
What about about Bearings like Moto’s and I think Push uses? Seems like the best solution to me. Allows for misalignment, side loading and of course axial rotation around the mounting bolt.
Spherical bearings were discussed above as well, yes they are superior to every other option in terms of performance, but they don't last too long because they are typically not sealed that well. Argument that you cannot fit them because there isn't enough space is complete bullshit, price and weight, those are real reason, 16mm OD is size used on those shock that use them, vs 15mm standard eyelet.
https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=102336
Been around since Ohlins first partnered with Specialized and discovered the joys of shock yoke extensions (esp. the ones that Specialized used to use that literally bolted the shock to the yoke)
Can’t say I’ve seen this bike before, so I’m guessing it’s something new from fezzari? That’s nik nestoroff on the bike. New dh bike? Or long travel bike with a 40?
Lefty had needle beerings for that reason.
Any indication if the model-specific shocks available aftermarket or are these just ones that will be coming on stock builds?
Some shops are already listing the model specific shocks.
https://thelostco.com/collections/rockshox-vivid
What happened here was. it a huck to flat or something or did the new GT literally implode ? "There I was just riding along"
Interresting. +$30 for the luxury of a specific tune.
It was JRA during a practice run at Val Di Sole if I remember correctly. Granted, a world cup racer's JRA is beyond my mortal abilities. Frame was probably damaged at one point. Forgot details.
A big factor would be frame tolerances on cheaper bikes too, the minute you dont have nice alingment and that needle bearing has to take some axial load you would start to get issues.
Push's spherical bearings would be the best solution no?
The service manual has the how-to installation, might tell you something. Yay to another single use speciality tool!
You can do it with 2 crescent wrenches and some patience.
the tool helps but not 100% required
The new vivid has the option to upgrade the reservoir to go from a select or select+ to ultimate version. I am curious if the same is possible for the Superdeluxe ? I know the ultimate version of the SD reservoir are available as separate purchase but nowhere it says if it's possible and compatible. -A select+ SD air owner that would love to upgrade to ultimate without having to buy a new tuned shock.
In this case I think it might have to do with manufacturability too. Machining a square tube and slapping some hard steel on it is easy compared to machining grooves for balls and needle bearings also give torsional support so you can actually steer with the single stanchion fork.
And it's also smooth as hell compared to bushings (apparently).
For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It is 720 grams. The EXT Storia is lighter for this size, but I don't remember off the top of my head the exact weight. Kinda kills the point of an air shock for me if I'm only saving 50 grams.
Blister claims 703g for an 8.5 x 2.5" Storia V3 with a 375# spring, so I'd assume the EXT with a spring that would fit you would still be a fair bit heavier than the Vivid. It still isn't terribly far off if you have a light spring weight, though, which is interesting.
I'm just happy he walked away from that. I've got one of those bikes and am not too worried about it. Though I am wondering if the green ones may be cursed. Wyn was on a green one when he crashed and broke his hand, Roger was on a green one. None of the other riders have had any issues (none others are on green ones) things that make you go hmm
Are you seriously worried about 50g difference in shock weight on a 63mm stroke shock? I could cut my hair and lose 50g 😂
In my case where in the total system, the bike is maybe 20% of the weight, 50g especially on a performance suspension component is a trade off I’m willing to take.