MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

Related:
dolface
Posts
1675
Joined
10/26/2015
Location
CA US
3/23/2023 8:29am
nskerb wrote:
The o-chain thing is, in my opinion, the absolutely most confusing thing happening in mountain biking today.  The math says it should provide zero benefit above...

The o-chain thing is, in my opinion, the absolutely most confusing thing happening in mountain biking today. 

The math says it should provide zero benefit above speeds of like 6 or 8 mph (or whatever, pretty slow, depends on hub engagement but you know... pretty slow) YET, there are tens of elite level world cup racers using them, and I'm assuming thousands of people that most would consider to be regionally elite. I feel like there really needs to be a quantifiable deep dive into what it actually does. 

But I guess if it does or doesn't provide any benefit, but a fast guy feels like it makes them faster, then can't hurt. Idk, it just confused the shit out of me. 

MTB pros run some whacky stuff: https://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/PIT-BITS-Val-di-Sole-World-Cup…

https://singletrackworld.com/2017/08/magic-stickers-mystically-allegedl…

(Not gonna link to the product page so as not to improve their search ranking)

 

5
sspomer
Posts
6124
Joined
6/26/2009
Location
Boise, ID US
Fantasy
3/23/2023 8:37am Edited Date/Time 3/23/2023 8:42am

another taipei show video. very little MTB content, but interesting look into how things work. he discusses transmission and frame tolerances a bit.

 

 

3/23/2023 8:44am

 

I found this in the instructions

 

the seger 0.jpg?VersionId=



 

 

9
Jakub_G
Posts
355
Joined
8/7/2019
Location
SK
3/23/2023 8:45am
nskerb wrote:
The o-chain thing is, in my opinion, the absolutely most confusing thing happening in mountain biking today.  The math says it should provide zero benefit above...

The o-chain thing is, in my opinion, the absolutely most confusing thing happening in mountain biking today. 

The math says it should provide zero benefit above speeds of like 6 or 8 mph (or whatever, pretty slow, depends on hub engagement but you know... pretty slow) YET, there are tens of elite level world cup racers using them, and I'm assuming thousands of people that most would consider to be regionally elite. I feel like there really needs to be a quantifiable deep dive into what it actually does. 

But I guess if it does or doesn't provide any benefit, but a fast guy feels like it makes them faster, then can't hurt. Idk, it just confused the shit out of me. 

The issue is people think tine and time again that pedal kickback is the only thing this helps with (and it does help with that every time your rear wheels is locked up or close to it, the actual speed doesn't matter then), but it also helps with chain slapping around, the free chain weight isn't that little considering how fast it oscillates in those slomo vids. It absolutely is heavy enough to transmit vibrations through the chainring to the cranks. 

4
sspomer
Posts
6124
Joined
6/26/2009
Location
Boise, ID US
Fantasy
3/23/2023 8:46am Edited Date/Time 3/23/2023 8:48am

and shane miller's taipei day 2 vid - first 7 mins is mostly talking. show footage starts after

 

1
Primoz
Posts
4572
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
3/23/2023 9:09am
nskerb wrote:
The o-chain thing is, in my opinion, the absolutely most confusing thing happening in mountain biking today.  The math says it should provide zero benefit above...

The o-chain thing is, in my opinion, the absolutely most confusing thing happening in mountain biking today. 

The math says it should provide zero benefit above speeds of like 6 or 8 mph (or whatever, pretty slow, depends on hub engagement but you know... pretty slow) YET, there are tens of elite level world cup racers using them, and I'm assuming thousands of people that most would consider to be regionally elite. I feel like there really needs to be a quantifiable deep dive into what it actually does. 

But I guess if it does or doesn't provide any benefit, but a fast guy feels like it makes them faster, then can't hurt. Idk, it just confused the shit out of me. 

Jakub_G wrote:
The issue is people think tine and time again that pedal kickback is the only thing this helps with (and it does help with that every...

The issue is people think tine and time again that pedal kickback is the only thing this helps with (and it does help with that every time your rear wheels is locked up or close to it, the actual speed doesn't matter then), but it also helps with chain slapping around, the free chain weight isn't that little considering how fast it oscillates in those slomo vids. It absolutely is heavy enough to transmit vibrations through the chainring to the cranks. 

But with the Ochain the chain can move/slap around even more.

Thinking about it the only way I can see it helping (I've ruled out a few other theories) is that when the rear suspension goes into compression, the cranks won't be tugged on as the chainring can rotate freely - if the increase in chainstay length requiring the derailleur cage to move wants to be compensated by the top and lower length of the chain, the Ochain allows that. Running a solid chainring requires the length compensation to occur on the lower length of the chain only and invariably rotates the cassette. The cassette can maybe stay put somewhat running an Ochain.

If that is the case, enduro and the large cassettes should see even more of an improvement than DH bikes...

2
Jakub_G
Posts
355
Joined
8/7/2019
Location
SK
3/23/2023 9:20am
nskerb wrote:
The o-chain thing is, in my opinion, the absolutely most confusing thing happening in mountain biking today.  The math says it should provide zero benefit above...

The o-chain thing is, in my opinion, the absolutely most confusing thing happening in mountain biking today. 

The math says it should provide zero benefit above speeds of like 6 or 8 mph (or whatever, pretty slow, depends on hub engagement but you know... pretty slow) YET, there are tens of elite level world cup racers using them, and I'm assuming thousands of people that most would consider to be regionally elite. I feel like there really needs to be a quantifiable deep dive into what it actually does. 

But I guess if it does or doesn't provide any benefit, but a fast guy feels like it makes them faster, then can't hurt. Idk, it just confused the shit out of me. 

Jakub_G wrote:
The issue is people think tine and time again that pedal kickback is the only thing this helps with (and it does help with that every...

The issue is people think tine and time again that pedal kickback is the only thing this helps with (and it does help with that every time your rear wheels is locked up or close to it, the actual speed doesn't matter then), but it also helps with chain slapping around, the free chain weight isn't that little considering how fast it oscillates in those slomo vids. It absolutely is heavy enough to transmit vibrations through the chainring to the cranks. 

Primoz wrote:
But with the Ochain the chain can move/slap around even more. Thinking about it the only way I can see it helping (I've ruled out a...

But with the Ochain the chain can move/slap around even more.

Thinking about it the only way I can see it helping (I've ruled out a few other theories) is that when the rear suspension goes into compression, the cranks won't be tugged on as the chainring can rotate freely - if the increase in chainstay length requiring the derailleur cage to move wants to be compensated by the top and lower length of the chain, the Ochain allows that. Running a solid chainring requires the length compensation to occur on the lower length of the chain only and invariably rotates the cassette. The cassette can maybe stay put somewhat running an Ochain.

If that is the case, enduro and the large cassettes should see even more of an improvement than DH bikes...

It can slap even more, but you won't feel it as much through the pedals 😉 and we all know racers care more about feel than anything else. And to be honest, who doesn't?

3/23/2023 10:21am

especially on flat pedals it calms the bike down on yank

1
3/23/2023 11:35am
 

 

5
5
juliusk
Posts
116
Joined
1/21/2021
Location
Clausthal-Zellerfeld DE
3/23/2023 11:46am
 

 

Is it April elready?

10
BrambleLee
Posts
31
Joined
3/2/2023
Location
Portland, OR US
3/23/2023 11:52am
chrish83 wrote:
I'd put money on that not being headset routing, but just the new Codes which have hose routing which is closer to the bar, as he's...

I'd put money on that not being headset routing, but just the new Codes which have hose routing which is closer to the bar, as he's on AXS and probably runs Euro brake setup, his rear is on the right of the bar and enters the frame to the non-drive side

The front end and headtube on this bike look just like the front end of the TEMPO, which we know has headset routed cabling. Plus, as the other person said, no port on the headtube/downtube area. This is surely going thru the headset.

BrambleLee
Posts
31
Joined
3/2/2023
Location
Portland, OR US
3/23/2023 11:54am
juliusk wrote:

Is it April elready?

Intentionally punny typo? 

1
BrambleLee
Posts
31
Joined
3/2/2023
Location
Portland, OR US
3/23/2023 12:15pm
BenediktB wrote:
There seems to be some progress on the new Code calipers.  Jack has been testing a black version of them in his latest vid.  

There seems to be some progress on the new Code calipers. 

Jack has been testing a black version of them in his latest vid.

B4ABBBDF-D47E-4F7E-8F5B-FD65CE7E8F80

 

Now this is interesting. What do we make of this? They just rolled out the (super underwhelming) Stealth lineup, so these are what? Either a year plus out from release, or they're slotting in a DH-oriented brake more powerful than Codes.

Also, anyone know anything about the dropper situation? I thought we'd see a Reverb AXS update, or at least introduction of a 200mm (I've heard it's showing up on dealer B2B sites) this week. I guess since that's a RockShox product and the launch this week was SRAM focused, it makes sense not to have included it. But folks are saying April for RS launch of Boxxer and Vivid, and it seems like a dropper update doesn't fit that well with a DH-oriented launch. Curious...

6
3/23/2023 12:46pm

Oh Ellsworth....

 

Don't ever change.

5
29
Posts
232
Joined
3/9/2020
Location
AT
3/23/2023 12:50pm
 

 

kill me please

12
3/23/2023 1:01pm

Speaking as someone who works in product design.

The headset routing thing is still happening because these designs are done years out. So the early adopters stir up public sentiment first. So when it gets released and the public is saying "get fucked" the companies that are later in adopting it already have those designs locked in during product cycles. So they can't do anything for a year or two because all the manufacturing orders have already been made. Then you have another 2-5 years of having to sit on that design because of tooling amortization. So we're in the middle of the companies really not being able to pivot even if they want to. 

Also this can be blamed on roadies just like all the garbo press in BB shenanigans 

12
dolface
Posts
1675
Joined
10/26/2015
Location
CA US
3/23/2023 1:51pm Edited Date/Time 3/23/2023 1:52pm

Is this the new AXS dropper? 

Edit: He said it's just reversed in the comments fwiw...

 

 

2
Primoz
Posts
4572
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
3/23/2023 1:55pm

Meh, got sniped... 

Looks a bit long and bulkier than a normal axs reverb in my opinion. Kinda like the battery clips in from the bottom up? 

1
bikelurker
Posts
179
Joined
3/23/2023
Location
Bilbao, Vizcaya ES
3/23/2023 2:07pm

He posted in the comments that is reversed in order to avoid tyre buzz.

Derailleur looks HUGE on a regular size mtb

 

1
3/23/2023 2:07pm

Nice video by Steve from Vorsprung about chain slap and pedal kickback > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grNUgu0H9YA&ab_channel=VorsprungSuspens…;. I totally see why the O'chain would help with the chain tugging on the pedal when bouncing around. I think it would also help in some slow speed scenarios like the bottom part of Leogang's WC track. 

1
juliusk
Posts
116
Joined
1/21/2021
Location
Clausthal-Zellerfeld DE
3/23/2023 2:23pm
BrambleLee wrote:

Intentionally punny typo? 

Not intentional, haha…

3/23/2023 2:36pm
bikelurker wrote:

He posted in the comments that is reversed in order to avoid tyre buzz.

Derailleur looks HUGE on a regular size mtb

 

Looks like the sensible way round. Battery + tyre + mud isn't my favourite. 

7
Uncle Cliffy
Posts
386
Joined
3/11/2010
Location
Medford, OR US
3/23/2023 2:36pm
 

 

When you want to simultaneously up vote because  humor, and down vote because ridiculousness. 
 

No headset cable routing tho…

5
earleb
Posts
355
Joined
3/23/2023
Location
North Vancouver, BC CA
Fantasy
3/23/2023 4:45pm

ohlins.png?VersionId=h.wMhMa7fW.lLRJHd

 Looks like Sour just leaked new Ohlins. 

Funny timing as I was looking into a bunch of Ohlins stuff just last night and went down a rabbit hole. 

My speculation is that this is the new shock Bruni has been hiding under the cover the last couple years. It's a change to a spool valve like their new moto Flow shock and they happen to have released an electronically controlled spool valve on a Yamaha moto in the last year. 

 

8
TEAMROBOT
Posts
1402
Joined
9/2/2009
Location
Los Angeles, CA US
Fantasy
3/23/2023 6:38pm

I'm just a guy, but how can you tell there's a spool valve inside a shock from a drawing of the outside of said shock? All I could tell is it uses a coil spring and has knobs on it.

14
3/23/2023 7:31pm Edited Date/Time 3/23/2023 7:34pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:
I'm just a guy, but how can you tell there's a spool valve inside a shock from a drawing of the outside of said shock? All...

I'm just a guy, but how can you tell there's a spool valve inside a shock from a drawing of the outside of said shock? All I could tell is it uses a coil spring and has knobs on it.

He's guessing its a spool valve from the handlebar remote Loic has. A spool valve makes sense functionally as it literally just diverts the oil flow to a different outlet. 

The reason why I don't think there is a spool valve in there, is because how do they fit an entirerly different compression damping setup in that shock to divert the oil flow to. That shock is the same size as a normal one, there simply isn't enough room to cram it all in.

A way to think of it is like the Push 11-6, a spool valve run by a servo would switch the compression setup just like how manually you flick the switch to swap between the two setups. Im sure Darren could answer it, but I don't know if Push use a spool or a gate for that setup

 

Also I can't spot a difference between that CAD drawing and the normal TTX22.m2 Trunnion. Anyone else spot a difference?

2
earleb
Posts
355
Joined
3/23/2023
Location
North Vancouver, BC CA
Fantasy
3/23/2023 9:40pm

Seems i have looked at the side load version too many times and forgot that they use this layout for the trunion mount. Doh.

My speculation for spool valve comes from their newer mx TTX Flow shock.

Seems I can't post links. Google Ohlins TTX Flow to see their moto shock.

The electric control from this Yamaha moto shock.

Google Ohlins Yamaha M10 Sp 

Combine those two and this is what i speculate the button on Bruni's handlebar is controlling. 

1
Primoz
Posts
4572
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
3/23/2023 10:07pm

FYI, Multimatic has a patent on spool valves that covers use in all vehicles, if I remember correctly even bikes. If Ohlins is using it here, they had to pay up. 

A spool valve isn't much different to any other valve used in dampers when it comes to electronic control, anything can be locked out with an actuator, it's just a matter of finding the best kind of actuator and location. You can even have a solenoid poke into a channel to block it off and you're done. Supporting the spool valve with an actuator is actually a bad way of doing it as the forces required to hold it in place could be very high requiring a strong actuator. 

Post a reply to: MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

This forum thread has been locked.

The Latest