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Also, totally agree with you.
Come on down to San Diego. SDMBA just got banned from working on some popular trails. They were doing unsanctioned were removing obstacles, aka rocks, so they could post on IG to ask for donations. Let me repeat, their work has been so poor that they were asked by the land management organization to stop doing work without supervision.
None of the SDMBA executives ride, their "trail builder" doesn't ride and they have no concept of what makes a good trail. The state of advocacy down here is an absolute joke. Meanwhile the executives of your local trail advocacy group are providing their phone number for your direct feedback. Count yourself lucky.
Trailbuilding is as rewarding as riding for me. Whether it be maintenance or bringing a slice of Oregon to 5 minutes from my house.
To me cornering is the most fun part of riding a bike. Weather it be a flat corner, rut or a berm. Slapping a turn and coming out of it with more speed then going into it feels great. This is where it seems like most "flow" trails get it wrong. Again maybe its because they only have a digger for a day or the grounds too soft to really test but a corner should be fun. I don't think I have ever had fun on a 180 degree triple apexed berm.
Just like your example of rebuilding Derailed, paying attention to how the terrain is used is of utmost importance.
But Trout Unlimited is using "runoff" as a tool to try to shut down trails. So the Forest Service response is that they use local volunteer clubs as their errand boys to meet and devise a "solution". We all know the solution is a re-route and NEUTERING of a trail that isn't choking off streams. The "solution" is to pick up more dirt than any riders could possibly displace, rip into the beautiful black soil down to the ugly red clay, toss the rhododendren & lichen & whatever is live and living for decades or centuries to develop a barren scar of silt that has catches for RUNOFF ISSUES THE TRAIL BUILDERS HAVE CREATED.
Has anyone else noticed that new trail or "re-routed" trails always expose infinitely more raw dirt to the elements, create more runoff, more piles of dirt and ripped up earth along the edges, bulldozer scars, 4 wheeler tracks & constantly flipping up rocks where they create "rock features" to "hold the soil". Since the rocks weren't embedded there to begin with, the dirt stacked in between and around them just washes away.
A buddy I really like is bidding on it. It really sucks that he even has to. He's talented and is thorough, keeps stuff narrow & puts a ton of handiwork into everything he does. But at the same time, I'm certain the contract constraints will ensure he'll have to throw a blade down and get it done ASAP if he wants to compete with the DOZER QUOTERS.
F.S. is just using citizens money. We should be going after Forest Service to get better funding, hand build contracts only, no rushed work, no linear feet time constraint requirements...and inmates should be cleaning up the sides of the roads, installing gates, repairing fences and keeping our riding areas in pristine shape.
All sorts of mental garbage just spewed out of my head.
Bottom line...I hope Shrimper gets that contract. He'll care. But the fact that the contract even exists and will have to meet stupid IMBA drainage guidelines will screw us all!
Luckily there have been several competent and talented builders that have constructed sustainable and enjoyable singletrack. It just makes you wonder what could be accomplished with thorough pre-planning and construction.
Hong Kong, Taiwan, Bali, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, etc; every rider here is looking to get flow trails built as everyone feels like they're missing out on the bike park scene overseas. And very few riders can afford to go to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the States, and most definitely Europe.
I wonder how Martin Maes, Hans Rey, Jure Zabjek, Tracey Hannah, Lucas Cruz, Wyn Masters, Remi Thirion, Myriam Nicole and other pro/WC riders feel about our downhill tracks in this part of the world (EDIT: they've visited SEA in the last 5 years).
Also, regarding the point about handbuilt contracts... why is this even a question? Besides from large jumps on ski resort sanctioned bike parks, why is there any reason for bulldozer and machinery to mix with bike trails? Why don't we take a step back and think about how silly this is.. machine made mountain bike trails is practically an oxymoron. Let's let trails be built with authenticity and care, because a good trail build is truly an art form and you can't substitute a rake and shovel with a bulldozer and get the same piece of art.
And again here, I'm going to take a stab at the masses who have gotten into mountain biking in the last few years. Welcome to the sport, but I feel there is an assumption that these big, dumby flow trails are the standard and are a universal thing. Hearing the words "flow trail" all the time honestly pisses me off. How about "mountain bike trail" and do you want to know what type of features it will have? Look around you or look up at the mountain. Way too many times, I've seen trail builds that simply do not match the terrain, and I'm not a biologist, but I can see them wreaking a lot more havoc than if they put just easy trails on moderate terrain and hard trails on more rugged terrain.
In this modern day and age, nothing seems to be the rider's fault, either, which is another contributing factor to the neutering of mountain bike trails. If someone gets hurt now, the trail is at fault. I remember when if you crashed and got hurt, it was YOUR fault for riding something you were incapable of. I also blame these modern bikes that inspire an unjust confidence in novice riders, and the sense of... dare I say entitlement they instill? As sick as these bikes are (I love being able to easily climb on my 160mm bike), we have to slow down and make sure riders are learning to walk before they can run and that we are being equally as calculated when building trails to meet the ever increasing rider demand.
With the amount of people riding and hiking on said trails it is a matter of time when we will have massive issues though. We need to fix this in some way, but it's not that easy to legalise things.
As for how to make trails, I'm afraid trails are often built by looking at the terrain, not by trying to at least ride it even one little bit. It was mentioned before, grab a rake, clear the terrain, mark it out roughly and try it out. Once you're riding it you'll see what feels natural and good and with such little effort put into the trail you can still do changes. I've often looked at some terrain, thought 'this would be a cool line', but once I'm trying it out on the bike it just doesn't work.
And I get it it's often not possible to do that when you have certain limitations given by the owners, government, etc.
I'm so jealous of what people up in Washington and BC get.
What I think a lot of flow trails miss is mini rollers that can be doubled/manueled by fast guys, or just pumped by blue riders. Blue riders don't even notice them but for others they can make it so much more fun and make you really work for corner speed to try and hit them.
I'm guessing they would all be called "natural" trails right? (How old does a trail have to be for it to be called natural, BTW?) I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure I even know what a flow trail is. At the same time, nothing I see on sites like Vitalmtb, NSMB, or Pinkbike look remotely similar to what I ride. I see some trails around here that I'm assuming are bootleg built, but we don't have anything like enough bike traffic or rain to worry too much about runoff from such trails. Heck, if it weren't for dudes on dirt bikes running around in the mountains half the trails that show up on TrailForks would be totally overgrown and all but unrideable.
Where are these trails you're talking about located? Are they on like bike-park land, or forest service stuff?
As is obvious, I'm old and lame and I ride alone so I have no idea what a ruined flow trail would be like. I spent a day this year on lift-accessed trails in a ski resort in the Tetons, the trails I was riding that day had constructed berms and built-in jumps (little jumps for weak little babies like me...sigh) would those be considered flow trails? This was late in the summer so there were lots of roughened patches in the trails, are those rough patches the rain ruts and chatter people mentioned?
I love riding alone and I love the trails around here, but I do sort of wish I could spend a week riding in the places people on these forums talk about so I could have something to compare to my home turf other than Moab.
Steve Wentz and Momentum Trail Concepts really get it, and I believe that more trail builders are figuring it out.
F.S. had the not so bright idea to run a couple steel girder bridges across the ankle deep, 20 foot wide water crossings, throw up far too many parking spots & toss down some gravel to it.
Within 3 months of opening, multiple deaths. The old creek bed served unknowingly served as quite the choke point for "sneaker hikers" as a deterrent. Once that bridge made it possible for buttery thick sows and brittle nitwits to saunter the 1/4 mile hike to the base...BOOM. Death upon death.
Dumbing down the forests creates a cluster fokk of imbeciles and incompetents that mother nature should not be burdened with, let alone trail users who actually earn that access which only they can because they have mastered the skills and fitness to get to natural places.
If your skill in the organic setting that is nature is such that you cannot navigate a simple piece of moderate singletrack without assistance, it is a certainty that you lack the competency to maintain enough skill and wit to extract yourself. And that should 100% be a qualifier to get out in nature....the ability to propel yourself and RETURN UNHARMED, UNAIDED by trail nor machine nor technological advancement.
It's quite literally the only way you can enjoy nature is if there is some semblance of NATURAL and ORGANIC interaction.
Grant Proposal: Hey major bike company, hey county recreation office, our proposal is to grow cycling -- by growing the size of the monster step-down in the woods behind the college yeeooww!11!! Seriously we need the money to make the natural gnarly trails we deserve because other trails are boring and crowded. And our project is so environmental it's sick. We won't use any big machines cause we're not sure who owns the land and we don't want anyone to call the cops. Impact to the community? All my brahs will be there, breh. Did you see how many upvotes there were on Pinkbike?? And all our fine shreddits will go on Youtube for free so like kids and stuff can watch us from home and be super inspired. Follow me on insta!
To many too list, we all know the deal
The classic example against the Modern Trail is the dumbing down of the shore right? I.e. Upper Dale's, Lower Digger. And it's hard not to agree after riding them, they're jarringly out of character.
Much of the rest of the Shore though is fall-line to dead-stop-turn to fall-line, which sucks to ride, and definitely sucks from a sustainably viewpoint. And I'm someone who grew up at the foot of Cypress and loves tech with all my ❤️
Hard to blame the diggers though, the old trails we're just loamy fall lines not built for the future. With the delicate soil in the lower mainland (Pacific Northwest) they just washed away, sending the sendiment into the waterways.
Have since moved to somewhere with relatively resilient soil, but it's the same story. Spent the last couple of decades patching up the local fall-line piece of shit, and after a few thousand hours of work to keep it ridable I'll resoundingly condemn that bullshit outright.
Somewhere in between total flow and fall-line is the answer of course, but man it's a tricky build. The two re-routes that I've been putting in here locally with a focus on tech without brake-dragging have had me scratchingy my head and starting over more than digging.
I always thought more advocacy would be better than less, but these doofs have proven me wrong.
What is interesting is that novice riders are truly baffled why anyone would be upset when a trail is smoothed out, see it all of the time on the local FB group.
Don't know what to do besides just run for the unsanctioned stuff to avoid these fools.
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