Our sport has had a massive influx in the last couple of years. More riders, more money, more media attention and as a byproduct more trails...
Our sport has had a massive influx in the last couple of years. More riders, more money, more media attention and as a byproduct more trails. Overall I think this is a good thing. More MTB specific trails are great, especially single direction MTB trails. But there has also been a trend in the last few years to make the most bland, boring repetitive trails when it comes to building something new.
Part of this seems to be legit trail building operations getting their hands on power tools. Where once you had to build your trail to work with the lay of the land now you can simply ram through your overbuilt 180 banked turns where ever you please. Great trails work with the terrain, using or avoiding natural features. Another issue with power tools is they are usual on rent, meaning the clock is ticking the second you pull up to the dig site. There seems like little or no time for testing. Lastly another issue with power tools is every trail has every root, rock and bump smoothed over. Even worse is when a builder then adds some of those features back in after putting the grade in, a la WCXC "rock gardens."
"Flow trails" also seem to be the hot thing to make the last few years. While I like a good jump line, that doesn't seem to be what most of these trails are. Lacking any real "features" the trails normally zig-zag across the fall line of the slope. The last few years I was lucky to get to travel a bit in the US and do a lot of riding. What I found was all the new built trails felt exactly the same. I get it these trails are easier to ride and are not as intimidating for beginners. The other issue that I found was old trails getting the flow trail upgrade. Which normally equates to difficult sections of trail getting removed or straightened out.
Maybe I'm just an outlier/old/out of touch. I know tons of people love these trails, that must be why they keep getting made. But I just wish we could leave some flat corners, roots and jank in our trails.
Listen up Mr. Handsome Steak, I’m pretty sure I’ve told you at least a few times to pull the plug on that free market capitalist utopia, and move north to this socialist (read: communist) hell hole where our trails are so steep they are literally unsustainable, and our hands hurt from bombing down 1500 meter (read: a loooot of feet) descents. It’s horrible here, what I wouldn’t give for some breaking bumps and turns that aren’t classified as anti-berm.
Although I empathize with your sentiment and count myself lucky to have access to miles and miles of raw backcountry trails with amazing descents, let me provide a little perspective.
Come on down to San Diego. SDMBA just got banned from working on some popular trails. They were doing unsanctioned were removing obstacles, aka rocks, so they could post on IG to ask for donations. Let me repeat, their work has been so poor that they were asked by the land management organization to stop doing work without supervision.
None of the SDMBA executives ride, their "trail builder" doesn't ride and they have no concept of what makes a good trail. The state of advocacy down here is an absolute joke. Meanwhile the executives of your local trail advocacy group are providing their phone number for your direct feedback. Count yourself lucky.
There's been a trend near here of smoothing out existing trails. All of them, even the technical climbing trails... The mind boggles.
I went and made the climbs extremely hard to get to the best one of our local rogue trails. The whole thing was meant to mimic what I missed out in Oregon. I did volounteer work with groups in Oregon, but I really got into rogue building now because it was clear that was the only way I could ride trails like my favorite stuff out there. But backcountry esque switchbacks tend to keep that trail to very low use which is perfect.
Trailbuilding is as rewarding as riding for me. Whether it be maintenance or bringing a slice of Oregon to 5 minutes from my house.
Pile it on you beefy stud! Miss riding with you rowdy fudge flingers! Have had some of my best memories dancing down trails that would scare the poops from me undies! I love looking at the land and using its natural habitat to create wacky and wild times. The PNW has exposed me to the knarliest of times, pushing my skills further, and i do miss that considering majority of new trails near Seattle are now L7 weenies. Definitely seems like things are changing in the woods, which can be good, and bad, but lets not get sad. Tear up the dance floor, jam the man, and make dirty woods again. I love to flow and pound down!
After a bit more thought and sliding into the DM's of a local robot part of it comes down to is properly built corners.
To me cornering is the most fun part of riding a bike. Weather it be a flat corner, rut or a berm. Slapping a turn and coming out of it with more speed then going into it feels great. This is where it seems like most "flow" trails get it wrong. Again maybe its because they only have a digger for a day or the grounds too soft to really test but a corner should be fun. I don't think I have ever had fun on a 180 degree triple apexed berm.
I'd like to take an unpopular position for a moment to defend flow trails. Flow trails aren't inherently bad. In fact, I can think of a...
I'd like to take an unpopular position for a moment to defend flow trails. Flow trails aren't inherently bad. In fact, I can think of a few flow trails I've ridden that are phenomenal. Whoops in Bend, Crank it Up in Whistler, and Silky Johnson at Sol Vista/Granby are all machine-built flow trails with no mandatory jumps, and all three of those trails can entertain an absolute beginner or a WC downhill pro. Seasoned pros have come to Whoops and broken wheels or ripped tires off.
Flow trails don't have to suck. I think what we're really complaining about here is BAD trail building, not flow trail building. The simple truth is that building great trails is hard and most trail builders, legal or otherwise, suck. A lot of people, not just trail builders, think their shit doesn't stink, and when you apply that attitude to trail building you get garbage in, garbage out. The best trail builders are highly experienced, but also extremely humble, invite criticism, and are willing to redo things when their first draft doesn't work. I've almost never built something I like on the first attempt- the real artwork is done in the editing and revisions.
The trail I'm working on with Evergreen West Sound right now, a blue-level flow trail at Port Gamble called "Derailed," is a great example of this. The original trail alignment wandered all over the hillside, and it did a poor job of managing the rider's speed. The steep bits were all straight and the flat bits were all turny, basically the opposite of what you want. Here's a video link to see the original alignment. I dare you to watch all 6-minutes- you can't do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sC_Gx-OrTY We're doing a ton of work to this flow trail to make it faster on all the flat bits, funner on all the steep bits, and more consistently challenging and entertaining for riders of all skill levels. That requires building up berms in some areas and straightening other areas, but I think that's a good use of the terrain. [Almost] everyone seems to enjoy the revisions so far.
I agree that there are a lot of homogenous, uninspired, rubber-stamped flow trails that criss-cross hillsides with no thought to the actual terrain they cover. No argument, those trails suck. But I've seen a lot of primitive rake-and-ride trails that also suck, where some dip went straight down the fall line and piled dirt on top of sticks to build jumps and berms. The metric should be good trail building, no matter what you're building.
@TEAMROBOT- you bring up some “flow” trails that have great reputations. We have Steve Wentz, who built Silky Johnson, here building a trail for us. Just because a trail is machine built and filled with features does not make for a boring trail.
Just like your example of rebuilding Derailed, paying attention to how the terrain is used is of utmost importance.
Our region, Pisgah is about to get a big taste of ugly. One of our most liked trails, Black Mountain, is getting a total re-route/rebuild. Can't remember exact numbers, but it's going from 1.9 miles long, to THREE. It is a gnarly blast of awesome on a spine that is far out enough in the woods that the eroded areas they talk about being a problem...they're a problem for incompetent riders. By the time the water from that spine goes anywhere, it's already ditched any silt along the way before it gets to any fishing areas.
But Trout Unlimited is using "runoff" as a tool to try to shut down trails. So the Forest Service response is that they use local volunteer clubs as their errand boys to meet and devise a "solution". We all know the solution is a re-route and NEUTERING of a trail that isn't choking off streams. The "solution" is to pick up more dirt than any riders could possibly displace, rip into the beautiful black soil down to the ugly red clay, toss the rhododendren & lichen & whatever is live and living for decades or centuries to develop a barren scar of silt that has catches for RUNOFF ISSUES THE TRAIL BUILDERS HAVE CREATED.
Has anyone else noticed that new trail or "re-routed" trails always expose infinitely more raw dirt to the elements, create more runoff, more piles of dirt and ripped up earth along the edges, bulldozer scars, 4 wheeler tracks & constantly flipping up rocks where they create "rock features" to "hold the soil". Since the rocks weren't embedded there to begin with, the dirt stacked in between and around them just washes away.
A buddy I really like is bidding on it. It really sucks that he even has to. He's talented and is thorough, keeps stuff narrow & puts a ton of handiwork into everything he does. But at the same time, I'm certain the contract constraints will ensure he'll have to throw a blade down and get it done ASAP if he wants to compete with the DOZER QUOTERS.
F.S. is just using citizens money. We should be going after Forest Service to get better funding, hand build contracts only, no rushed work, no linear feet time constraint requirements...and inmates should be cleaning up the sides of the roads, installing gates, repairing fences and keeping our riding areas in pristine shape.
All sorts of mental garbage just spewed out of my head.
Bottom line...I hope Shrimper gets that contract. He'll care. But the fact that the contract even exists and will have to meet stupid IMBA drainage guidelines will screw us all!
People only build raw singletrack where I live and it is all steep. I am more and more grateful for this. Live next to a prestigious bike park, had a flow trail at one time but it is no longer so flowy lol.
Our region, Pisgah is about to get a big taste of ugly. One of our most liked trails, Black Mountain, is getting a total re-route/rebuild. Can't...
Our region, Pisgah is about to get a big taste of ugly. One of our most liked trails, Black Mountain, is getting a total re-route/rebuild. Can't remember exact numbers, but it's going from 1.9 miles long, to THREE. It is a gnarly blast of awesome on a spine that is far out enough in the woods that the eroded areas they talk about being a problem...they're a problem for incompetent riders. By the time the water from that spine goes anywhere, it's already ditched any silt along the way before it gets to any fishing areas.
But Trout Unlimited is using "runoff" as a tool to try to shut down trails. So the Forest Service response is that they use local volunteer clubs as their errand boys to meet and devise a "solution". We all know the solution is a re-route and NEUTERING of a trail that isn't choking off streams. The "solution" is to pick up more dirt than any riders could possibly displace, rip into the beautiful black soil down to the ugly red clay, toss the rhododendren & lichen & whatever is live and living for decades or centuries to develop a barren scar of silt that has catches for RUNOFF ISSUES THE TRAIL BUILDERS HAVE CREATED.
Has anyone else noticed that new trail or "re-routed" trails always expose infinitely more raw dirt to the elements, create more runoff, more piles of dirt and ripped up earth along the edges, bulldozer scars, 4 wheeler tracks & constantly flipping up rocks where they create "rock features" to "hold the soil". Since the rocks weren't embedded there to begin with, the dirt stacked in between and around them just washes away.
A buddy I really like is bidding on it. It really sucks that he even has to. He's talented and is thorough, keeps stuff narrow & puts a ton of handiwork into everything he does. But at the same time, I'm certain the contract constraints will ensure he'll have to throw a blade down and get it done ASAP if he wants to compete with the DOZER QUOTERS.
F.S. is just using citizens money. We should be going after Forest Service to get better funding, hand build contracts only, no rushed work, no linear feet time constraint requirements...and inmates should be cleaning up the sides of the roads, installing gates, repairing fences and keeping our riding areas in pristine shape.
All sorts of mental garbage just spewed out of my head.
Bottom line...I hope Shrimper gets that contract. He'll care. But the fact that the contract even exists and will have to meet stupid IMBA drainage guidelines will screw us all!
Couldn't agree with you more Butch. The issues we have further North from you are that these flow trails are being "built" and then not maintained 2-3 years down the road. It has basically been: 1-Contract for flow trail, 2-Builders cut corners and do not engineer erosion measures, 3-Builders create a huge footprint, 4-Trail is complete and is ridden into the ground with little to no maintenance and is unrideable after a few years. Then another contract is given to "re-work" said flow trail.
Luckily there have been several competent and talented builders that have constructed sustainable and enjoyable singletrack. It just makes you wonder what could be accomplished with thorough pre-planning and construction.
It's quite interesting reading this thread, coming from a location where flow trails hardly ever exist (SouthEast Asia).
Hong Kong, Taiwan, Bali, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, etc; every rider here is looking to get flow trails built as everyone feels like they're missing out on the bike park scene overseas. And very few riders can afford to go to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the States, and most definitely Europe.
I wonder how Martin Maes, Hans Rey, Jure Zabjek, Tracey Hannah, Lucas Cruz, Wyn Masters, Remi Thirion, Myriam Nicole and other pro/WC riders feel about our downhill tracks in this part of the world (EDIT: they've visited SEA in the last 5 years).
Couldn't agree with you more Butch. The issues we have further North from you are that these flow trails are being "built" and then not maintained...
Couldn't agree with you more Butch. The issues we have further North from you are that these flow trails are being "built" and then not maintained 2-3 years down the road. It has basically been: 1-Contract for flow trail, 2-Builders cut corners and do not engineer erosion measures, 3-Builders create a huge footprint, 4-Trail is complete and is ridden into the ground with little to no maintenance and is unrideable after a few years. Then another contract is given to "re-work" said flow trail.
Luckily there have been several competent and talented builders that have constructed sustainable and enjoyable singletrack. It just makes you wonder what could be accomplished with thorough pre-planning and construction.
That was my experience riding the "Flow" trail in Demo Forest in Santa Cruz. It was a year old by the time I rode it and was completely destroyed. Rain ruts and chatter between every funky berm. I found myself thinking "When will this be over." Not "How many laps can I do?"
Our region, Pisgah is about to get a big taste of ugly. One of our most liked trails, Black Mountain, is getting a total re-route/rebuild. Can't...
Our region, Pisgah is about to get a big taste of ugly. One of our most liked trails, Black Mountain, is getting a total re-route/rebuild. Can't remember exact numbers, but it's going from 1.9 miles long, to THREE. It is a gnarly blast of awesome on a spine that is far out enough in the woods that the eroded areas they talk about being a problem...they're a problem for incompetent riders. By the time the water from that spine goes anywhere, it's already ditched any silt along the way before it gets to any fishing areas.
But Trout Unlimited is using "runoff" as a tool to try to shut down trails. So the Forest Service response is that they use local volunteer clubs as their errand boys to meet and devise a "solution". We all know the solution is a re-route and NEUTERING of a trail that isn't choking off streams. The "solution" is to pick up more dirt than any riders could possibly displace, rip into the beautiful black soil down to the ugly red clay, toss the rhododendren & lichen & whatever is live and living for decades or centuries to develop a barren scar of silt that has catches for RUNOFF ISSUES THE TRAIL BUILDERS HAVE CREATED.
Has anyone else noticed that new trail or "re-routed" trails always expose infinitely more raw dirt to the elements, create more runoff, more piles of dirt and ripped up earth along the edges, bulldozer scars, 4 wheeler tracks & constantly flipping up rocks where they create "rock features" to "hold the soil". Since the rocks weren't embedded there to begin with, the dirt stacked in between and around them just washes away.
A buddy I really like is bidding on it. It really sucks that he even has to. He's talented and is thorough, keeps stuff narrow & puts a ton of handiwork into everything he does. But at the same time, I'm certain the contract constraints will ensure he'll have to throw a blade down and get it done ASAP if he wants to compete with the DOZER QUOTERS.
F.S. is just using citizens money. We should be going after Forest Service to get better funding, hand build contracts only, no rushed work, no linear feet time constraint requirements...and inmates should be cleaning up the sides of the roads, installing gates, repairing fences and keeping our riding areas in pristine shape.
All sorts of mental garbage just spewed out of my head.
Bottom line...I hope Shrimper gets that contract. He'll care. But the fact that the contract even exists and will have to meet stupid IMBA drainage guidelines will screw us all!
Bitzuch - I completely agree with you. Just to clarify for all these trail management groups/Forest Service that probably aren't listening to any rider feedback, two trails cause more erosion than one. Long, re-routed trails displace, fragment, and destroy a lot more habitat than one existing trail that might not be built with lame standardized catch berms. The amount of square footage of earth that flow trails disrupt is staggering compared to a little single-track that is steep. Let's clear another thing up, erosion is not a synonym for difficult.
Also, regarding the point about handbuilt contracts... why is this even a question? Besides from large jumps on ski resort sanctioned bike parks, why is there any reason for bulldozer and machinery to mix with bike trails? Why don't we take a step back and think about how silly this is.. machine made mountain bike trails is practically an oxymoron. Let's let trails be built with authenticity and care, because a good trail build is truly an art form and you can't substitute a rake and shovel with a bulldozer and get the same piece of art.
And again here, I'm going to take a stab at the masses who have gotten into mountain biking in the last few years. Welcome to the sport, but I feel there is an assumption that these big, dumby flow trails are the standard and are a universal thing. Hearing the words "flow trail" all the time honestly pisses me off. How about "mountain bike trail" and do you want to know what type of features it will have? Look around you or look up at the mountain. Way too many times, I've seen trail builds that simply do not match the terrain, and I'm not a biologist, but I can see them wreaking a lot more havoc than if they put just easy trails on moderate terrain and hard trails on more rugged terrain.
In this modern day and age, nothing seems to be the rider's fault, either, which is another contributing factor to the neutering of mountain bike trails. If someone gets hurt now, the trail is at fault. I remember when if you crashed and got hurt, it was YOUR fault for riding something you were incapable of. I also blame these modern bikes that inspire an unjust confidence in novice riders, and the sense of... dare I say entitlement they instill? As sick as these bikes are (I love being able to easily climb on my 160mm bike), we have to slow down and make sure riders are learning to walk before they can run and that we are being equally as calculated when building trails to meet the ever increasing rider demand.
It is because of that. Around here we don't really have purpose built trails and we ride hiking trails (illegally of course) and while they don't have all the flow in the world, they are nice to ride and often a bit janky, technical and so on. Once you ride that stuff for your whole life (even with XC hardtails as a kid, enduro bikes just make them faster to ride, but just as fun), you're hooked. I don't like flow trails. I get it why they are made (accessibility for more people, sustainability), but yeah, even bikeparks mostly don't do it for me or at least rarely.
With the amount of people riding and hiking on said trails it is a matter of time when we will have massive issues though. We need to fix this in some way, but it's not that easy to legalise things.
As for how to make trails, I'm afraid trails are often built by looking at the terrain, not by trying to at least ride it even one little bit. It was mentioned before, grab a rake, clear the terrain, mark it out roughly and try it out. Once you're riding it you'll see what feels natural and good and with such little effort put into the trail you can still do changes. I've often looked at some terrain, thought 'this would be a cool line', but once I'm trying it out on the bike it just doesn't work.
And I get it it's often not possible to do that when you have certain limitations given by the owners, government, etc.
That was my experience riding the "Flow" trail in Demo Forest in Santa Cruz. It was a year old by the time I rode it and...
That was my experience riding the "Flow" trail in Demo Forest in Santa Cruz. It was a year old by the time I rode it and was completely destroyed. Rain ruts and chatter between every funky berm. I found myself thinking "When will this be over." Not "How many laps can I do?"
That's more due to it being rare Bay Area singletrack designed for bikes, and consequently getting flooded with noobs who can't ride. It's even worse this year with these same dipshits buying ebikes, and hammering it even more. Not saying it's perfect, but I'd say more of the blame lies with the users than the builders. I ride it maybe 1-2 times per year in the spring right after it gets patched up, and avoid it like the plague the rest of the year.
I'm so jealous of what people up in Washington and BC get.
As Robot said earlier. I think blue flow isn't the enemy. We had a couple of new ones built in WBP recently in the creekside zone which are amazing. Insomnia is one of the best trails ive ridden. Even earth circus is great.
What I think a lot of flow trails miss is mini rollers that can be doubled/manueled by fast guys, or just pumped by blue riders. Blue riders don't even notice them but for others they can make it so much more fun and make you really work for corner speed to try and hit them.
Not to argue, just highly skilled riders are the numerically smallest interest group (with the exception maybe of trailbuilders) in all of mountain biking. Fewer than less skilled riders, fewer than non-bike trail users, fewer than stakeholders involved in land use decisions. Why would we expect any new investment to favor highly skilled riders over others? Why would we expect regulators and land managers to favor highly skilled riders over others? It just doesn't make sense. If the really skilled riders had less sense of entitlement and looked at the big picture, maybe advocating for more progressive trail systems to increase the number of beginners who make it to intermediate, and more intermediate riders who make it to expert, it would ultimately serve everyone's interests.
Where I live, in a little corner of southeast Idaho, all the trails I ride have existed practically speaking, forever. Many were originally 19th-century cattle/logging/mining roads that maybe followed existing Native American or game paths. Some are now very narrow singletrack and others are washed out doubletrack. They've all got lots of rocks and flat turns, with berms only showing up where use over time creates them. (I wonder how much trail maintenance they get? Maybe what I think is mostly the result of use over time is actually careful work by some group I'm not aware of?)
I'm guessing they would all be called "natural" trails right? (How old does a trail have to be for it to be called natural, BTW?) I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure I even know what a flow trail is. At the same time, nothing I see on sites like Vitalmtb, NSMB, or Pinkbike look remotely similar to what I ride. I see some trails around here that I'm assuming are bootleg built, but we don't have anything like enough bike traffic or rain to worry too much about runoff from such trails. Heck, if it weren't for dudes on dirt bikes running around in the mountains half the trails that show up on TrailForks would be totally overgrown and all but unrideable.
Where are these trails you're talking about located? Are they on like bike-park land, or forest service stuff?
As is obvious, I'm old and lame and I ride alone so I have no idea what a ruined flow trail would be like. I spent a day this year on lift-accessed trails in a ski resort in the Tetons, the trails I was riding that day had constructed berms and built-in jumps (little jumps for weak little babies like me...sigh) would those be considered flow trails? This was late in the summer so there were lots of roughened patches in the trails, are those rough patches the rain ruts and chatter people mentioned?
I love riding alone and I love the trails around here, but I do sort of wish I could spend a week riding in the places people on these forums talk about so I could have something to compare to my home turf other than Moab.
Not to argue, just highly skilled riders are the numerically smallest interest group (with the exception maybe of trailbuilders) in all of mountain biking. Fewer than...
Not to argue, just highly skilled riders are the numerically smallest interest group (with the exception maybe of trailbuilders) in all of mountain biking. Fewer than less skilled riders, fewer than non-bike trail users, fewer than stakeholders involved in land use decisions. Why would we expect any new investment to favor highly skilled riders over others? Why would we expect regulators and land managers to favor highly skilled riders over others? It just doesn't make sense. If the really skilled riders had less sense of entitlement and looked at the big picture, maybe advocating for more progressive trail systems to increase the number of beginners who make it to intermediate, and more intermediate riders who make it to expert, it would ultimately serve everyone's interests.
@Snfoilhat- This is what we're doing- building a "flow-type" trail that is anything but boring, with enough challenges that some of the best riders in the country are excited for it, but with plenty of room for the rest of us to increase our skills.
Steve Wentz and Momentum Trail Concepts really get it, and I believe that more trail builders are figuring it out.
Not to argue, just highly skilled riders are the numerically smallest interest group (with the exception maybe of trailbuilders) in all of mountain biking. Fewer than...
Not to argue, just highly skilled riders are the numerically smallest interest group (with the exception maybe of trailbuilders) in all of mountain biking. Fewer than less skilled riders, fewer than non-bike trail users, fewer than stakeholders involved in land use decisions. Why would we expect any new investment to favor highly skilled riders over others? Why would we expect regulators and land managers to favor highly skilled riders over others? It just doesn't make sense. If the really skilled riders had less sense of entitlement and looked at the big picture, maybe advocating for more progressive trail systems to increase the number of beginners who make it to intermediate, and more intermediate riders who make it to expert, it would ultimately serve everyone's interests.
Honestly, I can use the waterfall example on this one. A place called Catawba Falls is a mellow, short hike to the base of the falls. The hike up and around the side is gnarly, but not as serious as the hike into Gorilla on the Green River (which requires ropes for many).
F.S. had the not so bright idea to run a couple steel girder bridges across the ankle deep, 20 foot wide water crossings, throw up far too many parking spots & toss down some gravel to it.
Within 3 months of opening, multiple deaths. The old creek bed served unknowingly served as quite the choke point for "sneaker hikers" as a deterrent. Once that bridge made it possible for buttery thick sows and brittle nitwits to saunter the 1/4 mile hike to the base...BOOM. Death upon death.
Dumbing down the forests creates a cluster fokk of imbeciles and incompetents that mother nature should not be burdened with, let alone trail users who actually earn that access which only they can because they have mastered the skills and fitness to get to natural places.
If your skill in the organic setting that is nature is such that you cannot navigate a simple piece of moderate singletrack without assistance, it is a certainty that you lack the competency to maintain enough skill and wit to extract yourself. And that should 100% be a qualifier to get out in nature....the ability to propel yourself and RETURN UNHARMED, UNAIDED by trail nor machine nor technological advancement.
It's quite literally the only way you can enjoy nature is if there is some semblance of NATURAL and ORGANIC interaction.
It's also one of the least exciting things to watch in videos IMO. Maybe it's because I only have natural trails where I live so it...
It's also one of the least exciting things to watch in videos IMO. Maybe it's because I only have natural trails where I live so it isn't relatable.
Imagine a chairlift up that ridge North of Edna Valley. Rough cut and ridden in. Pedal from town. They're all privately owned, but everyone has children and grand children who might ride. MDI
Business Plan: So with this loan we will totally acquire some sick steeps and an old jeep road, and we will cut in like totally natural gnarly trails -- just man and bike my dudes! All my buds will get to ride for free, of course. And we gotta keep it on the low -- don't want a bunch of people blowing up the spot. Monthly cash flow? Return on investment? Uhhhhh
Grant Proposal: Hey major bike company, hey county recreation office, our proposal is to grow cycling -- by growing the size of the monster step-down in the woods behind the college yeeooww!11!! Seriously we need the money to make the natural gnarly trails we deserve because other trails are boring and crowded. And our project is so environmental it's sick. We won't use any big machines cause we're not sure who owns the land and we don't want anyone to call the cops. Impact to the community? All my brahs will be there, breh. Did you see how many upvotes there were on Pinkbike?? And all our fine shreddits will go on Youtube for free so like kids and stuff can watch us from home and be super inspired. Follow me on insta!
The classic example against the Modern Trail is the dumbing down of the shore right? I.e. Upper Dale's, Lower Digger. And it's hard not to agree after riding them, they're jarringly out of character.
Much of the rest of the Shore though is fall-line to dead-stop-turn to fall-line, which sucks to ride, and definitely sucks from a sustainably viewpoint. And I'm someone who grew up at the foot of Cypress and loves tech with all my ❤️
Hard to blame the diggers though, the old trails we're just loamy fall lines not built for the future. With the delicate soil in the lower mainland (Pacific Northwest) they just washed away, sending the sendiment into the waterways.
Have since moved to somewhere with relatively resilient soil, but it's the same story. Spent the last couple of decades patching up the local fall-line piece of shit, and after a few thousand hours of work to keep it ridable I'll resoundingly condemn that bullshit outright.
Somewhere in between total flow and fall-line is the answer of course, but man it's a tricky build. The two re-routes that I've been putting in here locally with a focus on tech without brake-dragging have had me scratchingy my head and starting over more than digging.
Although I empathize with your sentiment and count myself lucky to have access to miles and miles of raw backcountry trails with amazing descents, let me...
Although I empathize with your sentiment and count myself lucky to have access to miles and miles of raw backcountry trails with amazing descents, let me provide a little perspective.
Come on down to San Diego. SDMBA just got banned from working on some popular trails. They were doing unsanctioned were removing obstacles, aka rocks, so they could post on IG to ask for donations. Let me repeat, their work has been so poor that they were asked by the land management organization to stop doing work without supervision.
None of the SDMBA executives ride, their "trail builder" doesn't ride and they have no concept of what makes a good trail. The state of advocacy down here is an absolute joke. Meanwhile the executives of your local trail advocacy group are providing their phone number for your direct feedback. Count yourself lucky.
I thought I was the only person that was bummed every time they touched a SD trail!
Although I empathize with your sentiment and count myself lucky to have access to miles and miles of raw backcountry trails with amazing descents, let me...
Although I empathize with your sentiment and count myself lucky to have access to miles and miles of raw backcountry trails with amazing descents, let me provide a little perspective.
Come on down to San Diego. SDMBA just got banned from working on some popular trails. They were doing unsanctioned were removing obstacles, aka rocks, so they could post on IG to ask for donations. Let me repeat, their work has been so poor that they were asked by the land management organization to stop doing work without supervision.
None of the SDMBA executives ride, their "trail builder" doesn't ride and they have no concept of what makes a good trail. The state of advocacy down here is an absolute joke. Meanwhile the executives of your local trail advocacy group are providing their phone number for your direct feedback. Count yourself lucky.
I thought I was the only person that was bummed every time they touched a SD trail!
SDMBA's Instagram posts make me question their non-profit status. They seem to do a lot more advertising than trail advocacy, and when they do work on trails, they are quick to take away the best parts. I remember when E-ticket was worth the climb.
I always thought more advocacy would be better than less, but these doofs have proven me wrong.
What is interesting is that novice riders are truly baffled why anyone would be upset when a trail is smoothed out, see it all of the time on the local FB group.
Don't know what to do besides just run for the unsanctioned stuff to avoid these fools.
Turns out this is a problem everywhere.
What is interesting is that novice riders are truly baffled why anyone would be upset when a trail is...
Turns out this is a problem everywhere.
What is interesting is that novice riders are truly baffled why anyone would be upset when a trail is smoothed out, see it all of the time on the local FB group.
Don't know what to do besides just run for the unsanctioned stuff to avoid these fools.
Oh they show up at the unsanctioned stuff and smooth it out too. They also show up at good sanctioned trails and ruin them with unsanctioned work. Then tell everyone they are assholes for not appreciating their “work”.
Also, totally agree with you.
Come on down to San Diego. SDMBA just got banned from working on some popular trails. They were doing unsanctioned were removing obstacles, aka rocks, so they could post on IG to ask for donations. Let me repeat, their work has been so poor that they were asked by the land management organization to stop doing work without supervision.
None of the SDMBA executives ride, their "trail builder" doesn't ride and they have no concept of what makes a good trail. The state of advocacy down here is an absolute joke. Meanwhile the executives of your local trail advocacy group are providing their phone number for your direct feedback. Count yourself lucky.
Trailbuilding is as rewarding as riding for me. Whether it be maintenance or bringing a slice of Oregon to 5 minutes from my house.
To me cornering is the most fun part of riding a bike. Weather it be a flat corner, rut or a berm. Slapping a turn and coming out of it with more speed then going into it feels great. This is where it seems like most "flow" trails get it wrong. Again maybe its because they only have a digger for a day or the grounds too soft to really test but a corner should be fun. I don't think I have ever had fun on a 180 degree triple apexed berm.
Just like your example of rebuilding Derailed, paying attention to how the terrain is used is of utmost importance.
But Trout Unlimited is using "runoff" as a tool to try to shut down trails. So the Forest Service response is that they use local volunteer clubs as their errand boys to meet and devise a "solution". We all know the solution is a re-route and NEUTERING of a trail that isn't choking off streams. The "solution" is to pick up more dirt than any riders could possibly displace, rip into the beautiful black soil down to the ugly red clay, toss the rhododendren & lichen & whatever is live and living for decades or centuries to develop a barren scar of silt that has catches for RUNOFF ISSUES THE TRAIL BUILDERS HAVE CREATED.
Has anyone else noticed that new trail or "re-routed" trails always expose infinitely more raw dirt to the elements, create more runoff, more piles of dirt and ripped up earth along the edges, bulldozer scars, 4 wheeler tracks & constantly flipping up rocks where they create "rock features" to "hold the soil". Since the rocks weren't embedded there to begin with, the dirt stacked in between and around them just washes away.
A buddy I really like is bidding on it. It really sucks that he even has to. He's talented and is thorough, keeps stuff narrow & puts a ton of handiwork into everything he does. But at the same time, I'm certain the contract constraints will ensure he'll have to throw a blade down and get it done ASAP if he wants to compete with the DOZER QUOTERS.
F.S. is just using citizens money. We should be going after Forest Service to get better funding, hand build contracts only, no rushed work, no linear feet time constraint requirements...and inmates should be cleaning up the sides of the roads, installing gates, repairing fences and keeping our riding areas in pristine shape.
All sorts of mental garbage just spewed out of my head.
Bottom line...I hope Shrimper gets that contract. He'll care. But the fact that the contract even exists and will have to meet stupid IMBA drainage guidelines will screw us all!
Luckily there have been several competent and talented builders that have constructed sustainable and enjoyable singletrack. It just makes you wonder what could be accomplished with thorough pre-planning and construction.
Hong Kong, Taiwan, Bali, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, etc; every rider here is looking to get flow trails built as everyone feels like they're missing out on the bike park scene overseas. And very few riders can afford to go to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the States, and most definitely Europe.
I wonder how Martin Maes, Hans Rey, Jure Zabjek, Tracey Hannah, Lucas Cruz, Wyn Masters, Remi Thirion, Myriam Nicole and other pro/WC riders feel about our downhill tracks in this part of the world (EDIT: they've visited SEA in the last 5 years).
Also, regarding the point about handbuilt contracts... why is this even a question? Besides from large jumps on ski resort sanctioned bike parks, why is there any reason for bulldozer and machinery to mix with bike trails? Why don't we take a step back and think about how silly this is.. machine made mountain bike trails is practically an oxymoron. Let's let trails be built with authenticity and care, because a good trail build is truly an art form and you can't substitute a rake and shovel with a bulldozer and get the same piece of art.
And again here, I'm going to take a stab at the masses who have gotten into mountain biking in the last few years. Welcome to the sport, but I feel there is an assumption that these big, dumby flow trails are the standard and are a universal thing. Hearing the words "flow trail" all the time honestly pisses me off. How about "mountain bike trail" and do you want to know what type of features it will have? Look around you or look up at the mountain. Way too many times, I've seen trail builds that simply do not match the terrain, and I'm not a biologist, but I can see them wreaking a lot more havoc than if they put just easy trails on moderate terrain and hard trails on more rugged terrain.
In this modern day and age, nothing seems to be the rider's fault, either, which is another contributing factor to the neutering of mountain bike trails. If someone gets hurt now, the trail is at fault. I remember when if you crashed and got hurt, it was YOUR fault for riding something you were incapable of. I also blame these modern bikes that inspire an unjust confidence in novice riders, and the sense of... dare I say entitlement they instill? As sick as these bikes are (I love being able to easily climb on my 160mm bike), we have to slow down and make sure riders are learning to walk before they can run and that we are being equally as calculated when building trails to meet the ever increasing rider demand.
With the amount of people riding and hiking on said trails it is a matter of time when we will have massive issues though. We need to fix this in some way, but it's not that easy to legalise things.
As for how to make trails, I'm afraid trails are often built by looking at the terrain, not by trying to at least ride it even one little bit. It was mentioned before, grab a rake, clear the terrain, mark it out roughly and try it out. Once you're riding it you'll see what feels natural and good and with such little effort put into the trail you can still do changes. I've often looked at some terrain, thought 'this would be a cool line', but once I'm trying it out on the bike it just doesn't work.
And I get it it's often not possible to do that when you have certain limitations given by the owners, government, etc.
I'm so jealous of what people up in Washington and BC get.
What I think a lot of flow trails miss is mini rollers that can be doubled/manueled by fast guys, or just pumped by blue riders. Blue riders don't even notice them but for others they can make it so much more fun and make you really work for corner speed to try and hit them.
I'm guessing they would all be called "natural" trails right? (How old does a trail have to be for it to be called natural, BTW?) I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure I even know what a flow trail is. At the same time, nothing I see on sites like Vitalmtb, NSMB, or Pinkbike look remotely similar to what I ride. I see some trails around here that I'm assuming are bootleg built, but we don't have anything like enough bike traffic or rain to worry too much about runoff from such trails. Heck, if it weren't for dudes on dirt bikes running around in the mountains half the trails that show up on TrailForks would be totally overgrown and all but unrideable.
Where are these trails you're talking about located? Are they on like bike-park land, or forest service stuff?
As is obvious, I'm old and lame and I ride alone so I have no idea what a ruined flow trail would be like. I spent a day this year on lift-accessed trails in a ski resort in the Tetons, the trails I was riding that day had constructed berms and built-in jumps (little jumps for weak little babies like me...sigh) would those be considered flow trails? This was late in the summer so there were lots of roughened patches in the trails, are those rough patches the rain ruts and chatter people mentioned?
I love riding alone and I love the trails around here, but I do sort of wish I could spend a week riding in the places people on these forums talk about so I could have something to compare to my home turf other than Moab.
Steve Wentz and Momentum Trail Concepts really get it, and I believe that more trail builders are figuring it out.
F.S. had the not so bright idea to run a couple steel girder bridges across the ankle deep, 20 foot wide water crossings, throw up far too many parking spots & toss down some gravel to it.
Within 3 months of opening, multiple deaths. The old creek bed served unknowingly served as quite the choke point for "sneaker hikers" as a deterrent. Once that bridge made it possible for buttery thick sows and brittle nitwits to saunter the 1/4 mile hike to the base...BOOM. Death upon death.
Dumbing down the forests creates a cluster fokk of imbeciles and incompetents that mother nature should not be burdened with, let alone trail users who actually earn that access which only they can because they have mastered the skills and fitness to get to natural places.
If your skill in the organic setting that is nature is such that you cannot navigate a simple piece of moderate singletrack without assistance, it is a certainty that you lack the competency to maintain enough skill and wit to extract yourself. And that should 100% be a qualifier to get out in nature....the ability to propel yourself and RETURN UNHARMED, UNAIDED by trail nor machine nor technological advancement.
It's quite literally the only way you can enjoy nature is if there is some semblance of NATURAL and ORGANIC interaction.
Grant Proposal: Hey major bike company, hey county recreation office, our proposal is to grow cycling -- by growing the size of the monster step-down in the woods behind the college yeeooww!11!! Seriously we need the money to make the natural gnarly trails we deserve because other trails are boring and crowded. And our project is so environmental it's sick. We won't use any big machines cause we're not sure who owns the land and we don't want anyone to call the cops. Impact to the community? All my brahs will be there, breh. Did you see how many upvotes there were on Pinkbike?? And all our fine shreddits will go on Youtube for free so like kids and stuff can watch us from home and be super inspired. Follow me on insta!
To many too list, we all know the deal
The classic example against the Modern Trail is the dumbing down of the shore right? I.e. Upper Dale's, Lower Digger. And it's hard not to agree after riding them, they're jarringly out of character.
Much of the rest of the Shore though is fall-line to dead-stop-turn to fall-line, which sucks to ride, and definitely sucks from a sustainably viewpoint. And I'm someone who grew up at the foot of Cypress and loves tech with all my ❤️
Hard to blame the diggers though, the old trails we're just loamy fall lines not built for the future. With the delicate soil in the lower mainland (Pacific Northwest) they just washed away, sending the sendiment into the waterways.
Have since moved to somewhere with relatively resilient soil, but it's the same story. Spent the last couple of decades patching up the local fall-line piece of shit, and after a few thousand hours of work to keep it ridable I'll resoundingly condemn that bullshit outright.
Somewhere in between total flow and fall-line is the answer of course, but man it's a tricky build. The two re-routes that I've been putting in here locally with a focus on tech without brake-dragging have had me scratchingy my head and starting over more than digging.
I always thought more advocacy would be better than less, but these doofs have proven me wrong.
What is interesting is that novice riders are truly baffled why anyone would be upset when a trail is smoothed out, see it all of the time on the local FB group.
Don't know what to do besides just run for the unsanctioned stuff to avoid these fools.
Post a reply to: I don't like the direction of modern trail building