The Bikeconomics (Mega)Thread

Here in support of Downtime. Say what you want about the podcast, Chris got the interview where others failed. 

Agreed. Downtime goes Downhill is awesome and Chris is really great as an interviewer. Pre/post race episodes are great. He builds rapport with his guests really well so it often feels like friends talking.

I don't expect him or anyone else in mtb media to ask the hard-hitting questions; they all have to be careful not to piss potential advertisers off.

Chris has great episodes, a great attitude, seems genuinely curious, and also does some episodes that pay him well. I'm always stoked to see a Downtime episode show up on my phone.

No shade on Downtime, but let’s see this for what it is… a friendly interview with someone who was paid (travel only as he disclosed) to do it.

Well, at least he landed on SC, which is usually a long term ride.

Markus coming across as that POS who is bashing his wife and says something like "look at what you made me do, you made me do this" kind of vibes

everyone else's fault but his.

+1 on Downtime here!

The pre- and post-race shows are among the holy triumvirate of DH racing content (with WynTV and Vital Raw), absolutely not to be missed. The guests are often great but as hogfly says, the Downtime Goes Downhill series is evidence that the host n dem are interesting on their own. I have that as the best execution of that vibe in DH, it’s relatable and a really cool insight into the British DH racing scene.  

So yeah. Downtime good!

Flossmann bad though. 

What’s noteworthy about Flossmann’s appearance is that he was given an open mic to come clean and really lay it down however he wanted, with no real repercussions…and the guy STILL had me turning it off halfway due to horseshit overload! Our resident aspirational CEO Brinance even called it out: mf’in MF refuses to take responsibility for his choices and offers zero apologies for his impacts, from minor inconveniences to lives surely upended. Severe to moderate ulcerative bro-itis! 

Seriously gonna look us in the eyes and say there’s nothing he can do for his double champ Höll, all while using her face to sell bikes he knew he wasn’t gonna ship? Huh? Who on earth would buy a bike from this guy? And this is at least strike three on the racing front? Get the bozack! 

Markus Flossman…most definitely not invited on tomorrow’s ride! No way!

Flossman has all the classic traits of a narcissist. If you've ever worked with folks like this in any capacity... oof. He built of house of cards based on his charisma and it blew over. Expected.

dude never left the company! he just stepped aside in the public eye and stayed on as „chief visionary officer (oh boy!)… he is even listed as CEO on all of YT’s financial reports. PE might be responsible for to optimistic growth targets, but i‘m pretty sure weren‘t the ones spending the money on full blinged out mills (still don‘t get that term). i have an opinion of who has a spending habit in that equation

this is the first downtime podcast I am passing.. dont want to listen to an egomaniac, and waste my time.. I have enough in my corporate work..

thanks for the fantastic listening with Spomer and Jeff, thats all I need to listen to..

The follow up from Jeff was cool as well !!!

And then, in the passive voice, "someone built a house of cards and it blew over"

I am faithful Downtime listener... naivety aside (landing big names is a must for a podcast, visiblity, engagement etc).. I think a solid host should be very careful on glorifying some stuff and giving a platform to image wash.. I correct myself fro my upper statement, the last Matt Jones podcast I also skipped.. I suspect it has glorification of some stunts and projects that are meh.. I like the guy, but its playing the dumbed down cliche approach on glorifying the ordinay or average things with empty hype.. 

Thanks to those who've taken time to write kind words about Downtime. I was expecting to get some hate for this episode as there is definitely a lot of frustration out there on this topic and Markus appears to be a very polarising character. 

For what it's worth, I put in the time to understand the concerns of the MTB world as much as was possible from forums etc and I believe that all those key points were covered in this interview. I also took time to understand the mechanisms of Private Equity and just why growth is essential and driven so hard. Perhaps having that context available to me meant I didn't ask some follow up questions that others would have liked to hear. For that I apologise.

I personally feel that as a MTB podcast, the depth of questioning was appropriate. For a finance/business podcast, perhaps not. Of course, everyone is welcome to their opinion. Luckily, for those who want to go further, Jeff is on hand!

As for this being 'paid' because YT booked my travel. If you consider parting with the costs of driving to the airport in exchange for 4 days work, a pre-3am start and being away from your family on the weekend being 'paid', then we have different definitions! I'll take 'friendly interview' as that's my style, I believe it gets better answers out of people than being combative/aggressive. On balance, I'd like to think I did a decent job of enabling the MTB world to hear Markus' side of the story in a way that was pretty in-depth and is accessible to everyone. What people feel about how Markus answered the questions and any follow up deep-dive is for others to decide.

On one hand, I shouldn’t give a F about what Markus says. I did my three years at YT, met amazing people, learnt a lot and got paid not too bad. On the other hand, given the number and kinds of situation where Markus showed zero accountability for his own actions and screwed up both customers and employees that I personally witnessed, I really wish for other people’s voices to be heard at least to the same extent as it was with the Downtine podcast. I am not the one to talk out loud since my role was not that high/impactful and I obviously do not expect anybody from the former YT leadership to speak out for professional reasons. But I do think it’s a shame if such a character keeps on influencing the scene and the industry like nothing wrong has happened. 

Chris, That is precisely my definition of paid work.  If you are unhappy with the amount you should have charged more.  It’s not like Marcus wouldn’t have paid it.  And taking a weekend away from family to sit down with Marcus and give him a softee interview to spin his bs sounds like the worst use of time.

Generally enjoy your show.  But personally I think this episode is highly regrettable.  I agree that your general style is good when it comes to interviewing racers and folk with no agenda.  But Marcus paid you because he has an agenda.  Not because he remotely cares about honesty or the facts.  

You lost a good bit of credibility with me on this one.  Are you interested in using your platform to promote truth and knowledge or are you a hanger on using mountain bikers to make money in a cushy fashion.  I always thought it was the former but this one feels like the latter.
 

If your definition of making money in a cushy fashion is 4 days work for minus £40 and comments like this, then I must be that hanger on using mountain bikers for my benefit. Just to be clear, this was my decision to do this interview and I'm not unhappy about doing that at my cost. YT just covered the bulk of the travel to enable us to do it in-person, which I think provides not only a better quality audio and video experience for you all, but also makes the conversation flow better. This doesn't in any way change how I would handle the conversation.

I think the reality is that what you tuned in to hear isn't what I set out to create. Numerous people have had their say on this situation, on outlets way bigger than Downtime. I wanted people to have an opportunity to hear Markus tell his side of the story and to ask him to directly address the points that have caused people frustration and pain, rather than us all speculating. This is what I delivered.

At no point did I brand this as 'the TRUTH' (although I'd get more YouTube views if I did). This is Markus' side of the story and his answers on topics like the fire sale, the DH team and the US operation. I think it's good that those answers are out there for people to hear. Are they the truth? I don't, and can't know for sure. There's plenty of information out there for everyone to consume and no doubt there will be more. It's up to each individual to process the available information and make their own mind up. 

I think if you knew me, understood how hard I have worked and what I have sacrificed to bring you a podcast each week, you would understand that my motivations are not financial. 

I for one would love to read the piece. 

Chris, lots of people sacrifice and do hard work.  Usually to make profits for someone or lot’s of someone else.  Lots of us here make huge sacrifices cause we love mtb at financial loss.  Both in how it affects our careers and the money we spend.  And I’m not talking on gear, but rather the millions if not billions of dollars people spend a year after year creating trails, races, etc out of pocket with zero profit or even for free.

You start every podcast asking listeners for money to keep it going.  Which is completely fine.  I have zero issue with you being compensated for your work.  I genuinely feel that you are primarily interested in providing a platform to promote mountain bikers.  But I think this one was extremely off the mark.  Your podcast with Marcus and Sam nichols a few years ago was fine.  Sure it hocked a product and brand but at the time they deserved benefit of doubt.

This time you gave someone who did a phenomenal amount of damage to our community a free pass to spin his story.  You are very privelaged to be in your position whether you work hard or not.  Don’t waste that privelage on puff pieces for bad actors.  You can say you wanted his side.  But everytime a politician gets on tv and the interviewer doesn’t do their job it creates propaganda.  Which is exactly what this latest podcast was.

if you want to say that’s not really your lane that’s fine.  But then don’t interview someone who just bought their bankrupted company that cost a lot of people their jobs and left a lot of vendors in this industry unpaid.  
 

I 100% agree with you, it gives platform for an image wash and to push a narrative. The only issue the guy has is that the podcast audience, i have the feeling, knows better, and call the BS right away ; ).. and Chris, you get splashed during the process... i will continue listening to the normal episodes ; )

"You are very privelaged to be in your position whether you work hard or not."

Might be one of the wildest statements I've read in awhile, and that's before the spelling...

---

Chris, keep it going!  Get everyone's side of the story, make some money while you're at it, and let the audience decipher the message.  You (and all the other podcasts out there) are the platform, we are the interpreters, whether some of those interpreters like it or not.

On a cohesive note, I think we can all agree that anyone who knows even the basic details of this situation won't be filling the YT online cart, ultimately voting with our wallets.  MF's interview on Downtime simply helped solidify that decision.

I just want to recognize Chris for stepping into the bull pen that is this thread...

I had zero issue with the way the podcast went. Let's be real here does anyone think Markus goes on a podcast at think he will be pressed super hard.  I am 100% saying no way he does it.  You should have known what it would be the min he said have editorial control.  Everyone knew what it would be and thats what it was.  It was an opportunity for Markus to  his story.  We all know the other stories out there and we all know the truth is somewhere in between.   Would I have liked him pressed about the DH team when he keeps talking about a Van vs a big truck and that was only issue in his opinion.  As what about the stories of team manager having to pay out of pocket to keep team going.  As for saying warranty ans making sure people knew he personally made sure people got bikes is a ploy to get peoples good graces but I think even he knew if that many people got shafted on cash purchase would have ended any chance of YT surviving the PR fall out while trying to restart company. 

The podcast gave Markus to change peoples opinion of him and his company.  I don't believe he changed many minds in a positive way with that performance.  I also doubt he lost a ton of people who were already supporting him either.  What he may have lost is people who may have considered the bikes.     I personally cant wait for the next big one where is he saying sorry again when YT, wait Young Talent Industries is not able to continue but it wasnt his fault.  

I’ve been a long time listener to Downtime, as evidenced by my support in this thread, but the responses by other listeners in this thread have solidified my appreciation for the value it brings to our community. I’ll be supporting via Patreon as a result. I know, from listening, it’s been a tough year financially for Chris and the podcast, and I don’t want the negativity on this thread to outweigh the stellar content that the podcast usually offers. 

That being said, I do think a more hard hitting interview with Markus would be great, but I certainly wasn’t expecting DT to engage in it. That’s not the function this particular podcast serves in our community. 

I also think that journalism on our community, in general, is lacking that sort of hard hitting coverage. At the end of the day, the MTB world is small with limited resources. Journalists in it tend to be fighting for financial support, and we just aren’t big enough for most folks trying to make a living in this world to risk damaging relationships with negative coverage of athletes or brands. Contrast that to moto or other sports where coverage can get downright meanspirited or salacious. Not sure that we’d be better off with that, though, as it does tend to also breed negativity. And I think a lot of people love MTB for the predominantly positive tight knit community we have. 

1) I think this YT segment of pods (and Brine's involvement) has been really good lately and I would love to see Vital do weekly pods (of any type) to stay on the pod-radar, even if its just 30-45 mins jabbering about bikes, gear, whatever.  The DH season w/ Dak is great, and likewise, the details on bike biz that Jeff's been pitching in on - which I thought would be must-miss - were must-hear really, and w/ Charlie & Schroeder... this has been pretty damn interesting. I get that pods are more time consuming than the fan base thinks though. 

2) Jeff clearly states he's not trying to bust Chris's balls and that he has a different lens.  Chris is def'ly putting in the graft and I can promise you - probably not making money hand over fist vs. just making a living for himself.  He's also NOT an investigative journalist and that is an entirely different angle and platform. If you have listened to DT, one of the foundations is that Chris never swipes or cuts at anyone - not even remotely.  That is good and it is rare since we are pretty much surrounded by that literally every minute of every day now w/ reg and social media and legions of tools who think TikTok is the news now 

It takes a lot of composure (and lots of time) to dig deep and challenge any or all points an interviewee might make as being full of shit, hypocritical, etc, and  even the best interviewers cannot counter every point they find contentious (which with Markus would be lots & lots of them) because real insights often do not occur on the spot but later - for example, in listening to rather than making - a podcast. And in a sense - doesn't that also allow US to do all that in forums like this and make our own finding. 

Many people really do need others to break down what was said to find facts, contradictions, etc. so that interviews are not just accepted and we blink & move on. I for one have to chew on things a while to gain strong realizations and I find it helps to read others views, even if I disagree, here and other forums.  But it seemed pretty apparent that Markus was not taking responsibility, putting the blame on others, only "acknowledged" his employees or buyers who didn't get bikes pain by saying "it brings tears to my eyes" a few times and I think for anyone that actually listened to the whole pod - most people can figure out where he stands.  And to his credit - assuming he wasn't lying - there were also some constraining factors none of us were aware of during the bankruptcy process.  

Didn’t listen. read all the peanut section lol.

My opinion from the read. Some of these people and my past self for sure, Need to practice more of noticing of there emotions before they blast the internet with bogus hurtful and hatful opinions on a harsh subject. So biased, so much single vision, so much rigidity. 

Selfish note here…. If someone would be so kind as to fill me in. Did flossman say anymore on US bikes or any bikes with warrenty issues. I need a new harness for my decoy and a new non drive side chain stay. lol I cracked mine right by the pivot. I would love a warranty lol. 

I emailed them a few times I’ve heard nothing…. USA email. The new email for un delivered bikes. The euro email. Seems like every yt owner is still dead in the water.

Here’s my selfish take:

 If yt want to begin a change to there image they can’t start with warrantying my 300 mile decoy that’s in terrible shape lol.

Just got caught up on the forum tea. Amazing that Chris came here to comment. Thank you Chris! Big fan.

Agree 100% with what you said, Jeff. Sounds like Chris approached this podcast with the same approach he brings to every podcast.

In Chris’s defense, what you see is what you get. If you’re a regular listener, you know what to expect from his interviews. He gives everyone a platform and doesn’t put anyone on blast.

For many of us, that standard approach feels like a mismatch for this particular situation because Markus does not appear to be a trustworthy person and his past, present, and future words and actions can affect and have affected so many people (often badly).

I don’t know if Chris did this (I didn’t listen to the DT podcast), but in this case, I think his normal interview approach would have benefited from an explicit disclaimer at the beginning and end. Could have been recorded after interviewing Markus, explaining Chris’s approach and blind spots, something like:

“FYI my goal on this podcast was to give people an opportunity to hear Markus’ side of the story. There are many in the public sphere who disagree with his version of events. Here are some other resources and voices worth checking out for differing perspectives on YT: X, Y, Z. Listen carefully and make up your own mind.” Basically the same thing that he ended up posting here on the forum, but just recorded as a primer for Markus’ words. 

This is a classic derailment. I don't think anyone expected Chris to grill Markus like it's a cross examination and no one expected Markus to do anything but represent himself in the best possible way to position his new company to re-start.

At best, it is a bit of new information from one side... At worst it's a nothing burger.

I hope Brines has contacted a certain someone in an effort to get the other side of the story. Because at this point that's the only thing that would make this narrative compelling.

We never quite got a bullet points summary, much to Robot's chagrin. But I would ask even more simply, did anybody learn anything NEW during the podcast? I know he threw a few numbers out there, and it was nice to understand the unique YT US relationship a bit better... But otherwise I didn't have any a-ha moments that swayed me to one side or the other.

Wondering if anyone else actually had a change of opinion on the YT situation after listening...

I thought it was brilliant. Chris touched on all of the issues - team not getting paid, YT usa, paying customers with no bikes - and Flossman was free to respond naturally. 

Instead of diluting or improving my perception of tribulations at YT, I found the conversation really reinforced Flossman's now infamous character- zero accountability, empathy or remorse for the customers and staff involved, and constantly focused on the implications to the brand (not people) and damage limitation measures. If this was a parole hearing he'd be miles from getting his sentence commuted. I don't think this was good publicity for him; it just reinforced that YT is managed as a profit mill masquerading as a core brand. 

He did mention something interesting, that the Vital annual survey was one of the most critical indicators of brand momentum to YT. This year, we all have the opportunity to indicate how damaging this really was to their brand, and to choose whether or not to buy or recommend their products to our friends. Anyways, there are plenty of other reasons anyways not to buy a YT... QC, snapping frames, ride quality, extremely low resale value.

Chris, thanks and appreciate all your work to bring us this perspective. 

"1) I think this YT segment of pods (and Brine's involvement) has been really good lately and I would love to see Vital do weekly pods (of any type) to stay on the pod-radar, even if its just 30-45 mins jabbering about bikes, gear, whatever.  The DH season w/ Dak is great, and likewise, the details on bike biz that Jeff's been pitching in on - which I thought would be must-miss - were must-hear really, and w/ Charlie & Schroeder... this has been pretty damn interesting. I get that pods are more time consuming than the fan base thinks though."

100% agree. I threw on one of the bike biz podcasts with Brine, Sponsel, and Spomer when I had nothing else to listen to and was enamored almost immediately. They may be my favorite to listen to now, hope to hear more in the future. Regular installments would be most welcome.

Whew! If the adage about any publicity is good publicity as long as they spell your name right has any truth then YT and co have gotten plenty  from this thread alone. And @jeff.brines, I knew one of those kids who mangled motors and/or crashed cars and kept being given a new one in HS. It finally stopped when he put himself through a windshield. Thinking about it, that's purty apt for how I recall one of the CEO's I worked for too, only with companies and people's livelihoods in lieu of Audis.