E-bike talk: not tech rumor derailment

I have a full fat (56lb) bike and a sl bike (47lb) and I like both.  I don't think I'd want much over the 55-56lb range though.  One thing I'd like to see the ebike world go to is power per pound.  I don't want 120nm bike that weighs 55lbs.  I rarely ride in turbo anyway.  I want a 48lb bike with 85nm.  

48-49ish pounds for a full power ebike with dh/dd tires is my sweet spot.  If it's an SL ebike, then 43-45 would be the target.  The problem for me is that I need to run the same tires (within 100 grams at least) on an SL ebike that I need to run on a full power ebike.  That means that the lightest I can reasonably get an XL, SL ebike down to is really like 44-45lbs.  My 2025 SC bullit is 49lbs ready to ride with DH tires.  That's the sweet spot for me.  I previously had an orbea rise which started out weighing 43lbs and ended up at 46.  

I'd echo what others have said about terrain, riding style, intended usage being a big decider.  My wife, whom weighs 120lbs, prefers her ebikes in the ~38-42lb range and a 48lb+ bike is a nonstarter for her.  She can honestly go uphill on a 60nm/350w ebike in boost at pretty much the same speed my 175lb frame can go on a ~700w/85nm bike.  

Agreed with Ebruner. I think that rider weight matters even more when you are talking about ebikes especially for females.  When you are 130lbs anything the high side of 45 "rides wrong..." or so I'm told. As a percentage change relative to body mass it all matters much more.

So not to clog up the rumours thread. 

Rocky has just released a firmware upgrade for the Powerplay SL, a boost from 65mn to 75nm torque and 500w to 700w peak power. 

https://bikes.com/en-ca/blogs/stories/firmware-update-rocky-mountain-e-bike-instinct-powerplay-sl

I'm just such a fan of this bike but have been scared off of the small brands when it comes to motors. All Bosch for me moving forward.

Need an advice, please!

Searching for my first eeb with 150-170 travel to potentially replace Transition Patrol. Two kids, two jobs, quiet good riding skills, desire to do more laps after work (close to Alps) and occasionally ride trail parks with no lifts. Have a DH rig in my quiver. 

Open to any motor/battery combo (except for Fazua) but want it to be below 23kg (51lbs). Will demo a bike before seriously considering it. Spec doesn’t matter much, I’ll transfer most of my beloved parts.

So far, my shortlist is: Cannondale Moterra SL, Trek Slash+, Transition Regulator SX/CX. Won’t buy full price, there are 5K deals already floating on new bikes mentioned, except for TR.

Am i missing other ebikes to consider? Are there any weak points among my shortlist I should take into account?

Appreciate your help.
 

Obea Wild is pretty cabable, having a blast on mine (I went with the ali frame and 750wh battery).

Thanks for the hint! Wasn’t on my list since it’s ain’t mullet, but I’ll give it a try. Same wheel size feels different depending on the bike…

Edit: oh, that’s quite a heavy rig!

Orbea Wild is available stock with a Mullet config, both carbon and alloy models.

I don't know if you can get Ari bikes in your neck of the woods but I love mine.  170r/180f, low 23kg, absolutely rips the downhills.

https://aribikes.com/products/timp-peak?keyword=&gad_source=1&gad_campa…

I was a touch worried about that as well at the start as the previous bike was an 18ish kg Rise.
But, nope no weight issues, handles incredibly well.

Most eeb's in that travel class and a big battery have a bit of heft to them, and to be honest it's not really an issue unless you plan doing a mammoth ride with the motor off?

You may be right, I’m just a newbie in e-realm. 

Tried ~25kg DECOYs (29 and MX) and didn’t jam with them at all, they didn’t feel like a bicycle, if you know what I mean. Plus I love to jib, manual, bunny hop and all that. That was impossible on those mopeds.

Will give Wild a shot. Thanks for directing me! Although it seems in my area you can’t buy/try it as a mullet.

Do you want full power and big battery? They're all gonna be on the heavy side north of 50#/22.7kg. The 600wh battery models can dip below that. 

Propain Stresh SL looks interesting if you want something lighter… the motor is small, efficient and silent (from what I've read, no firsthand experience). Aesthetically, thus subjective, but it looks good. 

After I built up my Vala, it was 47 lbs in size med with pedals.  That's with a Vivid air instead of the Float X.  Pretty much top end lightweight parts though.  Point is, I think it'd be possible to build a Bullit up to the same weight, as the only thing different really on components is the bigger shock, which I did.  Overforking a Bullit to 180 front doesn't add weight.  I'd rather have a full power with a 600 and removable extender to make it ride better most of the time, than an 800 all the time.  By the time I drain the main battery + extender in full turbo, my upper body is pretty tired from all that descending.

Question to ebike users, do you use the full range of a 12speed cassette? Are you ever in the 52 tooth? Seems unnecessary, wouldn’t a better spaced stronger drive with less gears be favoured? 

Wow, you all are getting your bikes crazy light. I've had two full power ebikes. Repeater L was 52 lbs and current Bullit XL is 52.5. I could see dropping 2 lbs throwing silly money at it, but not more than that without weak parts. Maybe the Bullit and XL size add more weight than I would have guessed. 

@lloyd506 12 speed is rather pointless on an eMTB. One of my regular ride/dig spots (lol at "dig" in this rock) is punchy, janky lava that takes everything you've got to clean on the ups even on a full power eeb. We never use the lowest 2 cogs, too easy to slip out. Even on a meat-bike I never use the smallest cog on tech climbs for this same reason, though I'm on a 30t up front so not apples-to-apples. The 52 is just for suffering on steep grinds.

Related, I find a 34t chainring as the standard spec on eMTB to be silly. You can easily hit the 20mph limit in a 32-10 so why spec a 34? 32 with 10 or 11 spd would give you everything you need.

I use the full range, we have ebike trails with steep climbs.  What I don't need are 12 gears, I could get away with 9-10 with the same range.

I use the full range of my cassette on my 25' SC bullit and also did previously on my 21' orbea rise.  I do a lot of steep climbs with this bike so it's not rare to be in granny gear and even granny gear in the top power mode.  

Chainring in 34t makes sense.  Anti-squat will increase with 32 and 30 chainrings and isn't something you need as much of with ebikes.  34t is really the sweet spot to enable torque output for the motor and balancing average cadence, while also playing nice with suspension kinematics.  Anything smaller will also put you at more risk of torching 15t or 18t cogs like every lazy ebiker seems content on doing these days.  

Just ordered an Antidote e-bike frame but an X01 Transmission and the power wire included. I've been running old X01 11 speed for ages (on 3 bikes currently) and like it but finally made the jump to Transmission due to the power being wired in and hopefully the ability to upshift while coasting. I see no point in the 52T on a full power e-bike, but I guess it would be amazing if the motor power left me on a big ride.

I think a really robust 10-11 speed all steel cassette with a wired in high clearance derailleur makes the most sense on an e-bike, but what do I know.

Kellys Bikes apparently jumping to the top of the class when it comes to energy density and total system weight with their new "Maxxpro" system:

Comparison with main competitors (more data points shown in the video as well):

+1, same range, less gears.

I'd imagine some day a stronger thus thicker chain is going to be needed to keep up with the torque wars. We'll need extra space in the cassette. 

For my last couple of ebikes I immediately changed the drivetrain to Shimano 10 speed. We also have steep climbs, but I find that with Emtb I don't need quite as much range, current cassette is 48-11 and never felt like I'd need more gears. 
My latest drivetrain is Shimano Linkglide, they claim 3x durability and none of the parts are compatible with other shimano stuff, so I guess the thicker chain is already part of the equation. 

These guys learning from the likes of NVIDIA how to make a graph look impressive. "Start the X-axis at, say, 170 so our bar looks 3-times as long as the competition's"

Just in case you didn't know, they point out "higher = better."

Sure, but It's a matter of scale. Does this look as impressive? (Honestly, still looks kinda impressive but my point stands)

Graphs aside, 6.06kg for full power and 900wh battery is really good. The DJI is 6.26kg and 800wh. Levo gen3 is 7.55kg for 840wh. 

I should have "/s" to be more clear. Graphs and numbers can really be made to support any postion if you try hard enough. I found it funny they went a step further in case it wasn't clear. 

I would second that a wide range 9 speed, with a nice strong chain and steel cassette is what you want on an ebike. Not only for a strong chain, but I always seem to be changing through 2 gears up or down with 11 speed, so any extra gears are pointless.

Also, 600w battery, with an extender if you need more, seems to be the best of both worlds (lighter bike generally, but more range if you need it). 

Really important are good DH brakes to stop the weight of the bike, and good DH tyres with support and traction to match the power.

Can somebody smarter than me please summarize why energy density is somewhat dependent on total capacity?