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Most HBO systems add to the rebound damping as it takes force to decouple the cup from the cone they typically use. It's arguably advantageous though, unless HBO engages too early affecting mid travel not the end stroke only.
The way HBO works on the RS Super Deluxe shocks is adding a needle that fits inside the end of the shaft, which chokes off oil flow near the end of the stroke. Not sure how it works on their Vivids which have adjustable HBO. Anyways, I really like HBO on shocks specifically because it doesn't cause faster rebound at the end (like you might get from a bumper).
That said, I am intrigued by the new Zeb layout, assuming they make the air spring more linear at the same time. The current Zeb with a Noken running a few psi higher than what I did before feels great for 90%, but the one thing I'd wish for was a position dependent ramp for the last 10mm or so.
I already got downvoted for this but since we all want more linear air springs why not just do a coil Zeb? I’m planning on nokening my Zeb so I’m pro-your setup but I think there is a proven market for a coil RS product given all the conversions and how much people like them (especially eeb riders it seems)
Literally cannot hurt to have coil as an aftermarket option or spec option on a-la-carte style builds. Air is the obvious choice for OEM still but many people (including me) would enjoy the option to buy a coil if we wish.
That needle at the end of the stroke can impact hsr at sufficiently high speeds.
Disagree. Rebound circuits are speed sensitive. Most suspension kinematics use a progressive linkage, spring curve, or a combination of both. Therefore to create an ideal rebound circuit for a progressive spring curve, the circuit would need to be position sensitive. Meaning that more damping is created as the the wheel travels towards bottom out in order to counter act the increased spring rate at each position. Unfortunately position sensitive rebound circuits don't exist yet in MTB dampers. Yes agreed HBO exerts more force but since the force is converted to heat, not deflected back into the ground like a progressive spring, HBO is superior for rebound not worse.
I mean, how many bikes are specced stock with a coil shock? It seems like they might as well spec coil forks on those builds…
I see your point, but coils are significantly more difficult/intimidating to swap in a fork than in a shock. You have to deal with oil and somewhat specialty tools, whereas a coil on a shock can be swapped in the trailhead parking lot by Gary with a multitool and no wrenching experience.
Not sure I follow where is the disagreement then?
Is there anything stopping someone to make a parking lot exchangeable coil spring fork? The bottom piston can stay inside, you remove the coil from the top and drop in a new one.
As far as I know they were always like that lol,the only issue is the spring is greasy/oily so its messy job to do trailside and there is a risk some grit will be introduced to the lowers lubing oil.
Vorsprung and Ohlins coil kits can change coil in parking lot with 1 or 2 tools. Coil is great but not always the answer, there are pros and cons.
I think what you should maybe say is “for those of us who don’t ride at a level where a progressive spring curve is essential; be it through a linkage or an air spring, it might be nice to have the option to spec a genuine rockshox coil fork.
Coil forks are great until you find their limit, and then they are really not great.
I don’t think I should have said that.
I am running a Smashpot V2, I think Steve fixed most of those HBO issues, he said about 5lbs of additional rebound. Adjustment range is larger and moved to 5wt oil.
Also HBO would probably make fork travel adjustments more difficult, depending on implementation.
I kinda think it's a natural reaction. What I like about this site is we mostly appear to be grownups and things get diffused. On the other one it usually escalates.
It feels ridiculous to type this out, but somehow there's a nicer vibe here.
Sorry for the derail.
There is no level where progressive spring curve is essential. But to burst your bubble, lower leg pressure creates progressive spring curve anyway so coil forks are not linear, just more linear than than air, with softer initial travel and no hammock in the middle.
I have not ridden a lot of the newest forks out there these days, but I have have long believed a progressive rear suspension with a coil, and a air fork, especially one with a tunable negative spring to be the best setup. even to the point of modding forks that didn't have it.
So to bring my ramblings back, is independent air chambers seen as too old school? Or is it the masses just can't handle two Schrader valves?
I prefer Vital because people are allowed to have different opinions here—most people seem to remember we’re just talking about expensive toys for grownups on this site. I can’t go to pinkbike anymore because of the holier-than-thou attitude on all topics, and if you don’t agree you are treated like a leper. I don’t have extreme opinions by any means, but it feels like I do on PB since everyone’s reaction there is so vitriolic.
Thanks for being real, Vital.
I might have to revisit this statement after seeing how the BK/Jenna thread goes over the next few days. 🤣
It’s hard to keep the independent air chambers from leaking one way or another. Ie neg leaking into positive.
Dimple resets any leak every stroke. It’s huge for durability.
Ok I see your post in two ways now. You’re right, a linear fork is not the same as a coil shock, since a good rear setup will have progressive linkage to counter the linear spring.
But on the other side is the fact that my post was about the more linear coil bikes (stumpy 15, etc) and how you might as well have a linear front end to match, without assessing performance, and that overall there are enough riders enjoying coil forks and coil conversions that a suspension brand has reason to develop a coil version of their air forks.
You might be right, linear to match linear - have you tried a coil fork? I think if you want more linear front suspension you’re better off with a dual air chamber design, my experience and that of my riding group is that coil forks feel great initially but lead to issues in large G-out scenarios, maybe due to the mismatched progression front to rear 🤷♂️ unsure.
Linear forks (and shocks) work best with higher amounts of damping like an Ohlins, or Avy setup, essentially anything with more damping than a stock rockshox or Fox damper. The extra damping dissipates more energy consistently through the stroke meaning you can still run a spring with great small bump and have less bottom outs as it takes more total energy to achieve a bottom out.
But also, sometime you just clap your forks, it happens, it's not the end of the world
I found that my fox 38 forks provide an adequate amount of damping, in that you can really feel when you're missing a few clicks. Maybe not to the level of an Ohlins shock, but they're quite well tuned to the fairly linear air spring they have. Maybe that would fall apart if I were to drop a coil in them, but my suspicion is that they would work fine.
Anyone else having flashbacks to the sounds of old Marzocchi forks bottoming? KLANG!!! Hmm, guess I better add another capful of fork oil to each side. Miss/don't miss those old beasts.
What pedals are these?
https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/28698351/
I think Daks been on the YOSHIMURA prototypes all season
Having worked with marzocchis from 20 years ago with 3 or 4 air valves - anything beyond 1 valve adds exponential complication for set up with negligible benefit, at least none that couldn't be achieved in a simpler way. Adjustable negative springs only work up until you have the same pressure as the positive chamber or else they lose travel. And that's just the same as using a dimple. I think negative spacer clips are a tidier solution - not sure why that one hasn't been used more!
It's not as simple as a clip, but I've just adjusted negative volume by adding or removing the top out bumper, as most dampers have enough rebound to negate a top out clunk anyway.
The rockshox HBO feature on the zeb is an interesting one, as I don't think we've seen any of the prototype forms with a coil spring from what we can tell, it would certainly be a possibility with the HBO feature though.
The parent application only included air springs, so maybe we won't see a Zeb coil anytime soon