Remeber those generatively designed cranks Sram played around with? Shame that the closest we got to an actual product is this latest generation with a single...
Remeber those generatively designed cranks Sram played around with? Shame that the closest we got to an actual product is this latest generation with a single machined hole in them.
They did both machined:
And 3D printed:
Since we are 3D printing lugs and entire head tubes now, why not cranks?
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good (...
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good ( and as far as i know they look like nothing else in the market ) laughable 3d printed levers, again clone from Trickstuff, the other stuff looks interesting, not too sure about those huge bearings in the pedals...
Rotors are again a clone from some Chinese brand that months ago kept getting pushed as an Ad on IG
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent good r&d money on developing their ideas, they haven't done the r&d, so there's far less understanding of the decisions that led to the original design. It's wholly unsafe and not to be mistaken for simply reverse engineering existing components. I don't understand why they can't just make new stuff???
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good (...
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good ( and as far as i know they look like nothing else in the market ) laughable 3d printed levers, again clone from Trickstuff, the other stuff looks interesting, not too sure about those huge bearings in the pedals...
Rotors are again a clone from some Chinese brand that months ago kept getting pushed as an Ad on IG
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent...
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent good r&d money on developing their ideas, they haven't done the r&d, so there's far less understanding of the decisions that led to the original design. It's wholly unsafe and not to be mistaken for simply reverse engineering existing components. I don't understand why they can't just make new stuff???
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you can copy/paste the existing best in class and not care about sanctity/safety/reputation. Agreed it needs some int'l controls, or at least an industry-wide pact to never use any of that stuff for OEM or team sponsorships
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good (...
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good ( and as far as i know they look like nothing else in the market ) laughable 3d printed levers, again clone from Trickstuff, the other stuff looks interesting, not too sure about those huge bearings in the pedals...
Rotors are again a clone from some Chinese brand that months ago kept getting pushed as an Ad on IG
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent...
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent good r&d money on developing their ideas, they haven't done the r&d, so there's far less understanding of the decisions that led to the original design. It's wholly unsafe and not to be mistaken for simply reverse engineering existing components. I don't understand why they can't just make new stuff???
It's a matter of time when the good ol FAFO will catch up to them. So far it has been ethical issue but soon enough they will infringe a patent making it a legal issue. They might not care about that stuff in the country of origin but with them partnering with western companies, that is not going to sit well. I see they even copied the bearing arrangement of Outlier pedals 1:1 sigh..
Reminds me of the guys in very geometrically square plaid shirts on day 1 of SEMA taking pictures next to the hot new wheels. By day 7 some of the small Asian vendors in the back had new wheels that looked very "inspired".
Bottom line, I don't think any of that Lewis stuff is actually IP theft, sure it looks like other brands but I doubt anyone has a design patent on the looks. Design patents are so narrow, just an extra hole of fillet can void them.
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you...
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you can copy/paste the existing best in class and not care about sanctity/safety/reputation. Agreed it needs some int'l controls, or at least an industry-wide pact to never use any of that stuff for OEM or team sponsorships
Too late for that, they are already on the Intense Factory Racing team.
Lol I cant wait for the comments of wealthy 200lb beginners say the USD Fox is not stiff enough for their riding when there is a 200lb pro racer taking golds on the fork.
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good (...
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good ( and as far as i know they look like nothing else in the market ) laughable 3d printed levers, again clone from Trickstuff, the other stuff looks interesting, not too sure about those huge bearings in the pedals...
Rotors are again a clone from some Chinese brand that months ago kept getting pushed as an Ad on IG
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent...
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent good r&d money on developing their ideas, they haven't done the r&d, so there's far less understanding of the decisions that led to the original design. It's wholly unsafe and not to be mistaken for simply reverse engineering existing components. I don't understand why they can't just make new stuff???
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you...
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you can copy/paste the existing best in class and not care about sanctity/safety/reputation. Agreed it needs some int'l controls, or at least an industry-wide pact to never use any of that stuff for OEM or team sponsorships
part of the problem is that far too many people have the mindset "it only costs x to make why is it being sold for 3x?" without understanding that products don't just manifest themselves out of the ether ready for consumer sale. this isn't limited to the bike industry, either.
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good (...
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good ( and as far as i know they look like nothing else in the market ) laughable 3d printed levers, again clone from Trickstuff, the other stuff looks interesting, not too sure about those huge bearings in the pedals...
Rotors are again a clone from some Chinese brand that months ago kept getting pushed as an Ad on IG
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent...
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent good r&d money on developing their ideas, they haven't done the r&d, so there's far less understanding of the decisions that led to the original design. It's wholly unsafe and not to be mistaken for simply reverse engineering existing components. I don't understand why they can't just make new stuff???
Not that I am for people outright cloning other companies' products, I have experienced this professionally myself and it is infuriating, but there is zero IP theft happening with Lewis copying Trickstuff's brakes. Design patents are a type of IP that protects the aesthetics of a product, keeping me too products from existing, but they are super rare and very difficult to get granted. Utility patents which are the IP that one would file for to protect a function or feature, like leverage adjustment or bite point adjustment cover nothing related to how something looks. Lewis copying Trickstuff's brakes does not, without any doubt, constitute as IP theft. Trickstuff does not hold a single design patent, they also hold zero utility patents on how their brakes work as almost all of their design features are well within public domain at this point, piston sizes, compression ratios, reach adjustment etc...
I wouldn't own any of their products just because I wouldn't want to be their R&D team testing the products they copy, and I am morally against me too products capitalizing off of smaller boutique manufactures design aesthetic. But I did want to clarify that Lewis is not in violation of any patent, they didn't steal any IP.
Reminds me of the guys in very geometrically square plaid shirts on day 1 of SEMA taking pictures next to the hot new wheels. By day...
Reminds me of the guys in very geometrically square plaid shirts on day 1 of SEMA taking pictures next to the hot new wheels. By day 7 some of the small Asian vendors in the back had new wheels that looked very "inspired".
Bottom line, I don't think any of that Lewis stuff is actually IP theft, sure it looks like other brands but I doubt anyone has a design patent on the looks. Design patents are so narrow, just an extra hole of fillet can void them.
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you...
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you can copy/paste the existing best in class and not care about sanctity/safety/reputation. Agreed it needs some int'l controls, or at least an industry-wide pact to never use any of that stuff for OEM or team sponsorships
Race bikes want short but growing on the right path.Which is why they've specifically mentioned the at sag number. Short to load the front in a corner...
Race bikes want short but growing on the right path. Which is why they've specifically mentioned the at sag number.
Short to load the front in a corner and come out with more corner exit speed and help in the tighter stuff. but growing enough to assist in Balance for the fast rough stuff. Go ride a trek slash gen 6, Perfect example of this.
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you...
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you can copy/paste the existing best in class and not care about sanctity/safety/reputation. Agreed it needs some int'l controls, or at least an industry-wide pact to never use any of that stuff for OEM or team sponsorships
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent...
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent good r&d money on developing their ideas, they haven't done the r&d, so there's far less understanding of the decisions that led to the original design. It's wholly unsafe and not to be mistaken for simply reverse engineering existing components. I don't understand why they can't just make new stuff???
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you...
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you can copy/paste the existing best in class and not care about sanctity/safety/reputation. Agreed it needs some int'l controls, or at least an industry-wide pact to never use any of that stuff for OEM or team sponsorships
part of the problem is that far too many people have the mindset "it only costs x to make why is it being sold for 3x?"...
part of the problem is that far too many people have the mindset "it only costs x to make why is it being sold for 3x?" without understanding that products don't just manifest themselves out of the ether ready for consumer sale. this isn't limited to the bike industry, either.
Apologies for the double post. I recall a story once told by an American craft brewer (who I don't recall...): "If a bottle of your beer costs you 25c to make, why am I paying $5 for it?" "Because making the first bottle cost me $1 million".
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you...
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you can copy/paste the existing best in class and not care about sanctity/safety/reputation. Agreed it needs some int'l controls, or at least an industry-wide pact to never use any of that stuff for OEM or team sponsorships
Right on cue, here's our 1st gallery from the China Cycle 2025 show which just wrapped up after 4 intensive days in Shanghai: https://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/members/china-cycle-2025-shanghai. Lots of clones of course but lots of really interesting work being done too!
Right on cue, here's our 1st gallery from the China Cycle 2025 show which just wrapped up after 4 intensive days in Shanghai: https://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/members/china-cycle-2025-shanghai. Lots of clones of course but lots of really interesting work being done too!
Copying the 5Dev cranks tells you everything you need to know about a company. All they care about is looks. The originals are a horrible engineering design.
They should have copied Came Creek EEwings. But that would require some skilled welders and not just feeding a CNC machine.
Innovation would be using ultra high strength steel from the automotive industry and make a tubular crank that uses the same axles as RF, Cannondale , FSA and all the others that use that same axle.
Fuck those cranks. There's SUCH a good structural reason why holes in cranks are a bad idea, with the exception of the sram cranks. The reason...
Fuck those cranks. There's SUCH a good structural reason why holes in cranks are a bad idea, with the exception of the sram cranks. The reason that all those 5dev cranks break despite not being very lightweight is 100 level shit, and I hate that the mtb industry is stupid enough to entertain it.
A 2 dimensional truss structure is fucking terrible in torsion, and most of the crank arm sees a LOT of torsion. Then you've got all the stress concentrations with all the internal corners, and that multiplies your max stresses by a lot again. The reason why the sram cranks with the hole through them are somewhat acceptable is because the part of the crank near the bb where the hole is, is angled directly at the centre of pressure of the pedal, so the torsion through that part of the crank is low and it's mostly just a bending load, which is fine. There are no holes in the part where it changes angle and becomes more parallel with the centreline of the bike, because that would be really stupid.
You get the best performance in torsion from closed section (box section, tube section etc) cranks like shimano hollowtech, or garbaruk, eewings etc. Or carbon stuff.
You see similar attention paid to the torsional loads vs bending loads in something like the raceface atlas crank where it's more like an I-beam (good in bending) on the bit near the bb where that part of the arm is pointed at the load centre, then it moves to more of a C-section with stiffeners on the inside of the C (better in torsion) for the latter half of the crank arm.
If it helps, there's a bunch of 5dev knockoff cranks on aliexpress and various reviews around the internet has revealed they are absolutely death traps. I wonder if Lewis is doing anything different or just picking up a company to run em'. If the 5dev ones are already kinda bad, wait til the knockoff hits trails in some capacity.
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good (...
Some new stuff and some other clones from Lewis, shame i didn't manage to screenshot a story with the chainrings cause those look really good ( and as far as i know they look like nothing else in the market ) laughable 3d printed levers, again clone from Trickstuff, the other stuff looks interesting, not too sure about those huge bearings in the pedals...
Rotors are again a clone from some Chinese brand that months ago kept getting pushed as an Ad on IG
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent...
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent good r&d money on developing their ideas, they haven't done the r&d, so there's far less understanding of the decisions that led to the original design. It's wholly unsafe and not to be mistaken for simply reverse engineering existing components. I don't understand why they can't just make new stuff???
Not that I am for people outright cloning other companies' products, I have experienced this professionally myself and it is infuriating, but there is zero IP...
Not that I am for people outright cloning other companies' products, I have experienced this professionally myself and it is infuriating, but there is zero IP theft happening with Lewis copying Trickstuff's brakes. Design patents are a type of IP that protects the aesthetics of a product, keeping me too products from existing, but they are super rare and very difficult to get granted. Utility patents which are the IP that one would file for to protect a function or feature, like leverage adjustment or bite point adjustment cover nothing related to how something looks. Lewis copying Trickstuff's brakes does not, without any doubt, constitute as IP theft. Trickstuff does not hold a single design patent, they also hold zero utility patents on how their brakes work as almost all of their design features are well within public domain at this point, piston sizes, compression ratios, reach adjustment etc...
I wouldn't own any of their products just because I wouldn't want to be their R&D team testing the products they copy, and I am morally against me too products capitalizing off of smaller boutique manufactures design aesthetic. But I did want to clarify that Lewis is not in violation of any patent, they didn't steal any IP.
Not going to lie, I got Lewis brakes and ran them all last season and they've been amazing. More consistent and better modulation than my Shimano brakes and more than enough power to stop my 270lb self on Squamish slabs and dh tracks throughout Alberta and BC. No leaks. No sticky pistons. Easy to bleed.
I didn't go out of my way to order them. My LBS brought a set in to check them out and I got a great deal on them to be the guinea pig and report back. You may not like them for ethical reasons, but you absolutely can't criticize them for their performance and reliability.
***edit*** - I can only speak about my experience with the brakes. I wouldn't get the 5dev cranks, let alone the Lewis or any other knockoff version.
Man, that Winice enduro bike looks awesome! How long till China does to the MTB market what they are about (doing) to do to the car market? they already make the frames, they’ve just been lacking decent design. Maybe we’ll be able to afford bikes again?
Copying the 5Dev cranks tells you everything you need to know about a company. All they care about is looks. The originals are a horrible engineering...
Copying the 5Dev cranks tells you everything you need to know about a company. All they care about is looks. The originals are a horrible engineering design.
They should have copied Came Creek EEwings. But that would require some skilled welders and not just feeding a CNC machine.
Innovation would be using ultra high strength steel from the automotive industry and make a tubular crank that uses the same axles as RF, Cannondale , FSA and all the others that use that same axle.
I'm curious about the tubular crank idea, not sure I understand exactly what you mean though (tubular crank arm?). Mind adding a little detail to that picture for me?
I'm curious about the tubular crank idea, not sure I understand exactly what you mean though (tubular crank arm?). Mind adding a little detail to that...
I'm curious about the tubular crank idea, not sure I understand exactly what you mean though (tubular crank arm?). Mind adding a little detail to that picture for me?
Copying the 5Dev cranks tells you everything you need to know about a company. All they care about is looks. The originals are a horrible engineering...
Copying the 5Dev cranks tells you everything you need to know about a company. All they care about is looks. The originals are a horrible engineering design.
They should have copied Came Creek EEwings. But that would require some skilled welders and not just feeding a CNC machine.
Innovation would be using ultra high strength steel from the automotive industry and make a tubular crank that uses the same axles as RF, Cannondale , FSA and all the others that use that same axle.
I'm curious about the tubular crank idea, not sure I understand exactly what you mean though (tubular crank arm?). Mind adding a little detail to that...
I'm curious about the tubular crank idea, not sure I understand exactly what you mean though (tubular crank arm?). Mind adding a little detail to that picture for me?
Tube....you know like a round tube. Same as bikes were made from before molded carbon.
You take a round tube and squish it a oval shape so it's optimized to the loads it's going to see. A tubular structure is better suited to the forces of a crank than an I-beam.
See EEwings here. Drop the hirth joint, make them from steel, and use the available axle that everyone is using. Go with 8 bolt sram mount for rings so that there will be plenty of options and no special tool needed. They don't need to survive 30ft roof drops to flat like Profile cranks so can be a reasonable weight.
Atherton may well be doing this soon
We really, really need to bring the hammer down on this IP theft. Not only are they stealing ideas and patents from people who have spent good r&d money on developing their ideas, they haven't done the r&d, so there's far less understanding of the decisions that led to the original design. It's wholly unsafe and not to be mistaken for simply reverse engineering existing components. I don't understand why they can't just make new stuff???
You answered your own question - good products take work and you make more money by not having to invest in developing a product when you can copy/paste the existing best in class and not care about sanctity/safety/reputation. Agreed it needs some int'l controls, or at least an industry-wide pact to never use any of that stuff for OEM or team sponsorships
It's a matter of time when the good ol FAFO will catch up to them. So far it has been ethical issue but soon enough they will infringe a patent making it a legal issue. They might not care about that stuff in the country of origin but with them partnering with western companies, that is not going to sit well. I see they even copied the bearing arrangement of Outlier pedals 1:1 sigh..
Reminds me of the guys in very geometrically square plaid shirts on day 1 of SEMA taking pictures next to the hot new wheels. By day 7 some of the small Asian vendors in the back had new wheels that looked very "inspired".
Bottom line, I don't think any of that Lewis stuff is actually IP theft, sure it looks like other brands but I doubt anyone has a design patent on the looks. Design patents are so narrow, just an extra hole of fillet can void them.
Richie rolling up to Pietra with the Fox inverted.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DJXQFvGKHZJ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Too late for that, they are already on the Intense Factory Racing team.
Lol I cant wait for the comments of wealthy 200lb beginners say the USD Fox is not stiff enough for their riding when there is a 200lb pro racer taking golds on the fork.
part of the problem is that far too many people have the mindset "it only costs x to make why is it being sold for 3x?" without understanding that products don't just manifest themselves out of the ether ready for consumer sale. this isn't limited to the bike industry, either.
What is attached to the brake caliper in the 4th shot? Looks like it has an LED on it... some sort of sensor?
Not that I am for people outright cloning other companies' products, I have experienced this professionally myself and it is infuriating, but there is zero IP theft happening with Lewis copying Trickstuff's brakes. Design patents are a type of IP that protects the aesthetics of a product, keeping me too products from existing, but they are super rare and very difficult to get granted. Utility patents which are the IP that one would file for to protect a function or feature, like leverage adjustment or bite point adjustment cover nothing related to how something looks. Lewis copying Trickstuff's brakes does not, without any doubt, constitute as IP theft. Trickstuff does not hold a single design patent, they also hold zero utility patents on how their brakes work as almost all of their design features are well within public domain at this point, piston sizes, compression ratios, reach adjustment etc...
I wouldn't own any of their products just because I wouldn't want to be their R&D team testing the products they copy, and I am morally against me too products capitalizing off of smaller boutique manufactures design aesthetic. But I did want to clarify that Lewis is not in violation of any patent, they didn't steal any IP.
100%
https://ridefox.com/products/live-valve-neo-kit
was going to call them out but thought they wised up this year, are they still on Lewis?? EXT was such a sweet move but not the knockoffs Jeff please
I believe they're on Hayes for 2025
Apologies for the double post. I recall a story once told by an American craft brewer (who I don't recall...): "If a bottle of your beer costs you 25c to make, why am I paying $5 for it?" "Because making the first bottle cost me $1 million".
They were still on Lewis Brakes 2 weeks ago..
Right on cue, here's our 1st gallery from the China Cycle 2025 show which just wrapped up after 4 intensive days in Shanghai: https://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/members/china-cycle-2025-shanghai. Lots of clones of course but lots of really interesting work being done too!
Okay I think this is just me misunderstanding something I saw on instagram.
link‘s not working.
Fixed now, had a "." added to the end of the URL...
And to keep the news rolling in, here's part 2 of our China Cycle 2025 coverage: https://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/members/china-cycle-2025-shanghai-part-2.
Copying the 5Dev cranks tells you everything you need to know about a company. All they care about is looks. The originals are a horrible engineering design.
They should have copied Came Creek EEwings. But that would require some skilled welders and not just feeding a CNC machine.
Innovation would be using ultra high strength steel from the automotive industry and make a tubular crank that uses the same axles as RF, Cannondale , FSA and all the others that use that same axle.
If it helps, there's a bunch of 5dev knockoff cranks on aliexpress and various reviews around the internet has revealed they are absolutely death traps. I wonder if Lewis is doing anything different or just picking up a company to run em'. If the 5dev ones are already kinda bad, wait til the knockoff hits trails in some capacity.
Not going to lie, I got Lewis brakes and ran them all last season and they've been amazing. More consistent and better modulation than my Shimano brakes and more than enough power to stop my 270lb self on Squamish slabs and dh tracks throughout Alberta and BC. No leaks. No sticky pistons. Easy to bleed.
I didn't go out of my way to order them. My LBS brought a set in to check them out and I got a great deal on them to be the guinea pig and report back. You may not like them for ethical reasons, but you absolutely can't criticize them for their performance and reliability.
***edit*** - I can only speak about my experience with the brakes. I wouldn't get the 5dev cranks, let alone the Lewis or any other knockoff version.
Man, that Winice enduro bike looks awesome!
How long till China does to the MTB market what they are about (doing) to do to the car market?
they already make the frames, they’ve just been lacking decent design.
Maybe we’ll be able to afford bikes again?
Starunion MGM Looks the good too
I'm curious about the tubular crank idea, not sure I understand exactly what you mean though (tubular crank arm?). Mind adding a little detail to that picture for me?
Think Profile Racing tubular chromoly cranks
Tube....you know like a round tube. Same as bikes were made from before molded carbon.
You take a round tube and squish it a oval shape so it's optimized to the loads it's going to see. A tubular structure is better suited to the forces of a crank than an I-beam.
See EEwings here. Drop the hirth joint, make them from steel, and use the available axle that everyone is using. Go with 8 bolt sram mount for rings so that there will be plenty of options and no special tool needed. They don't need to survive 30ft roof drops to flat like Profile cranks so can be a reasonable weight.