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What about chainstay girth?
Too far?
Snow crab vs stone crab
My chain stays might be short, but at least they’re skinny.
I used to be short chain stays. I have the, not bragging, but, let's just say my background includes a little bit of...BMX. loved my Canfield RIOT at 414mm on a 29, pre boost.
Now I ride a rigid bike with a 455 rear end on the same trails, faster than I did on the Riot 10 years ago
One isn't better than the other, but tastes, preferences, trends, styles change. Not looking to go shorter anytime soon.
I'm going to throw my hat into the ring. "Proportional chainstays" are a marketing gimmick the way that the brands are currently using the term, with the exception of maybe forbidden. How proportional the rear center length is to the front center is 100% relative and not defined. What most people seem to talk about when it comes to "proportional chainstays" is the ballance between front wheel grip and rear wheel grip, or more accurately the weight distribution between the front wheel and the rear wheel. On level ground, a 100 kg rider on a bike with a 440 mm rear center and a 800 mm front center would have about 64.5 kg on the rear wheel and 35.5 kg on the front, or 64.5% of their weight on the rear and 35.5% on the front (assuming the load is at the bb) . To keep that weight distribution approximately the same with a 20mm increase in reach/front center you would need to lengthen the rear center by 10mm every time. An 800mm front center is pretty common for most medium (460 mm reach) all mountain and trail bikes. Those are pretty close to the current Hightowers numbers, and if it grew proportionally, a bike with reach numbers I like (500mm) would have 460 mm stays, which would be too long for me. So there are a large group of riders where the idea of "proportional stays" doesn't actually get them what they want. Not only that, they don't actually guarantee the same ride experience between all riders. There are way too many variables, weight proportions, strength, to control for. Not to mention that we aren't static on flat ground when riding, we're on variable terrain and slopes, shifting our bodies so that weight distribution is constantly changing.
Rambling aside, I want all of us, all mountain bikers, to be able to find a bike that they love to ride. One that fits how they ride and the type of riding that they enjoy. We can't treat bike geo like it's a solved problem, or even like it is a problem to solve. Like others said above, there are jibby riders who can throw a bike around with long stays, and there are riders who can bomb hills and rip corners like no other on a bike with short stays. If people push and push for this idea of "proportional stays" we're just going to create a pendulum swing, where everything gets long, and then it gets short again, and then long again, and so on as people feel "left out" or "ignored". Buy a bike and support companies that give you the geo you want to ride, there are bikes for everyone out there.
Ride height(compression etc) upsets that Weight measurement though, Stem & bar length etc all comes into weight balance.
Ride height is frustrating as SAG doesnt defy it and is often relative to speed and conditions.
Like where does the BB height sit when you are blasting through rocks, is it low or high?, despite the suspension working(assuming perfectly) - what about suspension such as forks, it was common for RS stuff to sit into the travel more changing weight.
Rebound, how high is the rebound pushing you back and raising CG etc
Weight balance will always be a 'never perfect' as we as MTB'ers ride so dynamically, we move about and can influence the suspension via loading the bike(pushing into it) - I remember a Video talking about clips vs flats and how much difference it makes, clips you ride much further forward and naturally weight the front as you dont think as much about 'dropping the heels' - which is something I tested alot as I can swap back and forth run by run.
All geo these days is personal preference and its a never ending argument. pick a length and be a dick about it I say. 🤣
You're absolutely right about that, which is why "proportional chainstays" are an extremely flawed concept. Even the 440 rc 800 FC isn't "balanced". 64.5% 35.5% is far from a balanced weight distribution on flat ground everything else ignored. Even if you take a rider and put them on a bike with a longer reach and the same stays, that longer reach will still shift their weight forward, though probably not enough to offset the FC growth. And if we are mostly concerned with front wheel grip, your tires, wheels, and suspension all play a huge part in that.
I'm kind of sick of the be a dick about it part. That's the part that the industry people are listening too.
Tech Rumors and Innovation
For rumors of tech.
No one cares what chain stays you prefer take it somewhere else.
2020 Tech Rumors :
Scroll 1 page and find 10 pictures of new tech
2025 Tech Rumors :
Search 3 pages to find 1 potato pic and a bunch of lines giving a headache
This 👆
New Santa Cruz Bullit is out https://www.mbr.co.uk/reviews/electric-bikes/santa-cruz-bullit-axs-rsv-2025-e-bike-review
Santa Bullit or the New UNNO with the DJI motor… the UNNO seems like a better deal.
As someone who frequently lurks in this thread, I would love to see more moderation of the off-topic replies. I know threads are frequently spun off this one (like tires), but some of the frequent posters in the last month have never contributed to the topic at hand, other than to share their opinions and anecdotes. LAME!
As someone who has been on this thread a while I'll say:
Leave the banter
I feel like this thread does a good job of balancing Tech rumors and general Tech discussion that may seem off topic, of which Crab link is our proudest moment. The banter around the tech is just as important as the tech. If you just want a hot-list of rumors about stuff coming out, then well look elsewhere.
Hi! This is my first post on this thread, but I have been reading for 2 years now.
I talked with Sam pilgrim and a few other canyon guys at Tennessee Nationals, and also got to swing a leg over the Production New canyon sender. Supposedly the bike was supposed to release April 12 (that’s what Sam said, he also verified that it was the production version he was riding) so there’s a chance maybe it is releasing this month still? His bike had a baby blue color with white canyon letters. The (production?) bike also was equipped with the KIS system. looked identical to the proto. You could see Sam riding it in his Tennessee race vlog from a few weeks ago.
Take this information lightly since I have essentially no proof of this conversation with me and Sam lol, but he seems like a down to earth guy and I doubt he would just lie out of his ass. Unsure if this info has been covered or not.
I bet Canyon retained Sam to help design bikes for the DIY mechanic...
i love you friggin nerds.
all bikes are great somewhere.
all bikes suck somewhere.
get moar bikes.
short chainstays are cool. long stays are pretty wild too.
dorado FEELS way different to 40. Way. but thats the point right?
I feel like santa cruz screwed up by not making bullit "MOST BIGGER" (battery/travel/geo) compared to VALA.
but my ebike is a 2stroke. so maybe im way off.
I bet they’re using him to QC test their bikes. If they can make them strong enough for Sam, then maybe they’ll lose the “snapyon” nickname finally.
Bringing it full circle from complain-stays... What's the current/future meta in geometry? Seems like stacks are still coming up little by little while hta's have stabilized. Maybe hta's haven't stabilized, but more the resurgence of all mountain has created a space for a bike where hta's can stabilize.
What's the future of pedal bike geometry going to be like that we don't see today. I think the firebird is a good example of progressive geo but adjustability to bring it back to moderate.
Feels to me like higher stacks with the same reach numbers, +5mm longer stays from the current average and maybe a touch lower average bb (due to the higher stack and shorter cranks) are the next paths in pedal bike development.
6 year old thread with relevant info. Ninjichor has a solid post in there. They aren’t getting into stack but you’re right, if you want more stack you’ll need more RC. That’s partially where a lot of us are basing our RC religion on. https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-Hub,2/Advanced-geometry-nerding,10381
I think a lot of us need to spend our time in a thread like that. I know geo is part of tech but we’re getting really esoteric 🧐
To me its a no-brainer, the UNNO (assuming its available in your country).
38 fork, Downhill casing tires, 200 more watt/hours in the battery, and the most powerful motor on the market, but still nearly 5 pounds lighter.
Plus the UNNO looks very unique, in a good way.
That new intend moto shock is something else. Minimum rider weight of 187 lbs,
Esoteric geekery is why I'm here.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/modern-geo-talk-chainstays-stack-reach-and-bitching-about-it
Here we go, a fresh thread for geo talk
the initiative i like to see. thank you!
Orbea is making a live version of Tech Rumors, what a crazy world we are living in... 😅 https://experience.orbea.com/en/fmd-show-me-the-bike
Any talk of an updated Strive?
The perfect thread for slow tech news days
big guys need love too