What if the whole postmount bracket in this one is the UDH-equivalent but for braking? I.e. still making it possible to mount other brands, but the...
What if the whole postmount bracket in this one is the UDH-equivalent but for braking? I.e. still making it possible to mount other brands, but the next Sram brake to be mounted directly to the axle...
No clue how that'd look like, but they did it on the other side already
A direct mount (200+ mm) brake seems quite bulky plus you usually have the need to align it to some degree...
What if the whole postmount bracket in this one is the UDH-equivalent but for braking? I.e. still making it possible to mount other brands, but the...
What if the whole postmount bracket in this one is the UDH-equivalent but for braking? I.e. still making it possible to mount other brands, but the next Sram brake to be mounted directly to the axle...
No clue how that'd look like, but they did it on the other side already
A direct mount (200+ mm) brake seems quite bulky plus you usually have the need to align it to some degree...
Agree, but I'm just a bit cautious this time around thinking they're introducing a new standard solely for the greater good of everyone's convenience without a hidden catch in there somewhere.
The Forbidden one is not a Sram product, it's their own design. Similar in appearance, but not the same. Lots of companies make a bolt-on mount...
The Forbidden one is not a Sram product, it's their own design. Similar in appearance, but not the same. Lots of companies make a bolt-on mount like this.
I'd be stoked to see a UBM, UDH is one of the best "standards" in a long time. Misaligned shitty post mounts that aren't replaceable need to die. I want to be able to replace my hanger, brake mount, BB, headset, bearings etc at any bike shop.
Good to know on the Forbidden. Hopefully they incorporate this new 'standard' into their upcoming E-Druid.
Word on the street the full production Specialized DH vessel is ready. Apparently it's a looker.
Any word on the release date? I'm not in the market for a DH bike, but the sooner the DH sled is released the sooner (hopefully) we'll see a new Enduro.
Agree, but I'm just a bit cautious this time around thinking they're introducing a new standard solely for the greater good of everyone's convenience without a...
Agree, but I'm just a bit cautious this time around thinking they're introducing a new standard solely for the greater good of everyone's convenience without a hidden catch in there somewhere.
It's keyed to the axle/frame I believe, so I think it may take extensive modification to become floating?
maybe, maybe not? could just have an inner sleeve to it that interfaces with the keyed portion, then a bearing sleeve that rotates around it. obviously this is all conjecture based on the patent diagrams. i'm sure someone with enough ingenuity could figure it out.
The super interesting thing to me about that UBM patent is that it looks like the upper mount is floating and then secured by a pinch bolt the way some forks do.
Theoretically you’d have perfect alignment because the caliper is aligned by the hub endcap and the upper mount is just to counteract the brake torque.
Agree, but I'm just a bit cautious this time around thinking they're introducing a new standard solely for the greater good of everyone's convenience without a...
Agree, but I'm just a bit cautious this time around thinking they're introducing a new standard solely for the greater good of everyone's convenience without a hidden catch in there somewhere.
Direct mount transmission. It wasn't really a catch though (unless you like adjustable dropouts), just the ulterior motive of moving everyone to a standardised dropout design.
Would this not limit frame designs from having a pivot between 400 and 426. Take the inverted 4 bar designs of a Forbidden Dreadnought for example...
Would this not limit frame designs from having a pivot between 400 and 426. Take the inverted 4 bar designs of a Forbidden Dreadnought for example. In a design like that isn't the distance between 400, and 426 going to change and not work with this?
Agree, but I'm just a bit cautious this time around thinking they're introducing a new standard solely for the greater good of everyone's convenience without a...
Agree, but I'm just a bit cautious this time around thinking they're introducing a new standard solely for the greater good of everyone's convenience without a hidden catch in there somewhere.
Direct mount transmission. It wasn't really a catch though (unless you like adjustable dropouts), just the ulterior motive of moving everyone to a standardised dropout design.
Yah ok, I wouldn't call that a catch either, and UDH seems like a win all around even tho SRAM had an ulterior motive...
Agree, but I'm just a bit cautious this time around thinking they're introducing a new standard solely for the greater good of everyone's convenience without a...
Agree, but I'm just a bit cautious this time around thinking they're introducing a new standard solely for the greater good of everyone's convenience without a hidden catch in there somewhere.
Direct mount transmission. It wasn't really a catch though (unless you like adjustable dropouts), just the ulterior motive of moving everyone to a standardised dropout design.
You are right, but I also think most companies were trying to make their current frames work with the UDH and not come up with a long-term solution. There is no way you cannot have both.
Would this not limit frame designs from having a pivot between 400 and 426. Take the inverted 4 bar designs of a Forbidden Dreadnought for example...
Would this not limit frame designs from having a pivot between 400 and 426. Take the inverted 4 bar designs of a Forbidden Dreadnought for example. In a design like that isn't the distance between 400, and 426 going to change and not work with this?
Considering split pivot was made to work with UDH, I guess this would work too.
Considering the way split pivot is designed (4-bar braking wise, brake mounted to seatstay) the UBM would have to be mounted to the seatstay, otherwise it would be a normal single pivot.
As for floating brake mounts, mounting UBM in a bearing should cover most of it, I'm only curious if it is bulky enough to handle being a floating arm...
As for fixation, I have another question or doubt. It's a pinch bolt (with an elongated hole by the looks of it to cover the tolerances) which makes it adaptable. But, if the post is inside the diameter of the rotor (at least the larger sizes), it is limited in length it can protrude from the chainstay. Then unless the post is flared at the end, I am wondering if the UBM can pop off it if the seatstay bends out of the way.
Having the UBM mounted mostly to the axle is great as theoretically you'll always have alignment to the hub and rotor, but if it's at the expense of it popping off the torque carrier (post), that's not really ideal... And even if it doesn't pop off, I'm wondering if the post and pinchbolt interface might get worn through time.
Some thoughts regarding that USD-fork-rumor: back when Fox decided against their USD-proto entering series production, they explained they couldn’t make it stiff enough without making it extra heavy with the current-for-that-time tech available. But that was, I think, the time when they were raving about having the stiffest dh-fork on the market - a feat that ended up being not so perfect as some needed flex proved to be beneficial to the riding feel. Since then they’ve incorporated some into their forks, production technologies have made incredible leaps since, so putting 2+2, my bet is on Fox trying to USD-fy their 40 for the second time!
They reworked the damper shafts, bearing housing and seal kits. However I’m not clear on specific changes to each of those. Maybe one of the tuners...
They reworked the damper shafts, bearing housing and seal kits. However I’m not clear on specific changes to each of those. Maybe one of the tuners on here can chime in.
Regardless, agreed there’s further room for improvement in the MY26.
Some thoughts regarding that USD-fork-rumor: back when Fox decided against their USD-proto entering series production, they explained they couldn’t make it stiff enough without making it...
Some thoughts regarding that USD-fork-rumor: back when Fox decided against their USD-proto entering series production, they explained they couldn’t make it stiff enough without making it extra heavy with the current-for-that-time tech available. But that was, I think, the time when they were raving about having the stiffest dh-fork on the market - a feat that ended up being not so perfect as some needed flex proved to be beneficial to the riding feel. Since then they’ve incorporated some into their forks, production technologies have made incredible leaps since, so putting 2+2, my bet is on Fox trying to USD-fy their 40 for the second time!
if a small company like intend can do it, fox can do it. just don't expect the same level of detail from a mass produced product
Some thoughts regarding that USD-fork-rumor: back when Fox decided against their USD-proto entering series production, they explained they couldn’t make it stiff enough without making it...
Some thoughts regarding that USD-fork-rumor: back when Fox decided against their USD-proto entering series production, they explained they couldn’t make it stiff enough without making it extra heavy with the current-for-that-time tech available. But that was, I think, the time when they were raving about having the stiffest dh-fork on the market - a feat that ended up being not so perfect as some needed flex proved to be beneficial to the riding feel. Since then they’ve incorporated some into their forks, production technologies have made incredible leaps since, so putting 2+2, my bet is on Fox trying to USD-fy their 40 for the second time!
What exactly has leaped production technology wise in the last 10 to 15 years?
We know USD forks are toesionally less stiff but much stiffer fore aft than RSU forks. What changed in the last 10 to 15 years since the Fox proto is the mass adoption of 29ers. That means longer fork legs, which overall lowers the stiffness. That's more or less it regarding changes.
What has changed is the understanding and subsequent development on the side of springs and dampers. That's where a lot of the performance is coming.
Some thoughts regarding that USD-fork-rumor: back when Fox decided against their USD-proto entering series production, they explained they couldn’t make it stiff enough without making it...
Some thoughts regarding that USD-fork-rumor: back when Fox decided against their USD-proto entering series production, they explained they couldn’t make it stiff enough without making it extra heavy with the current-for-that-time tech available. But that was, I think, the time when they were raving about having the stiffest dh-fork on the market - a feat that ended up being not so perfect as some needed flex proved to be beneficial to the riding feel. Since then they’ve incorporated some into their forks, production technologies have made incredible leaps since, so putting 2+2, my bet is on Fox trying to USD-fy their 40 for the second time!
if a small company like intend can do it, fox can do it. just don't expect the same level of detail from a mass produced product
It's not a question of doing, it's a question of selling it. What's the first thing people think when they see a Dorado? I bet it's something along the lines of "that has to be flexy". Visual perception has a lot to do with how we buy products, even if it doesn't make any sense.
Some thoughts regarding that USD-fork-rumor: back when Fox decided against their USD-proto entering series production, they explained they couldn’t make it stiff enough without making it...
Some thoughts regarding that USD-fork-rumor: back when Fox decided against their USD-proto entering series production, they explained they couldn’t make it stiff enough without making it extra heavy with the current-for-that-time tech available. But that was, I think, the time when they were raving about having the stiffest dh-fork on the market - a feat that ended up being not so perfect as some needed flex proved to be beneficial to the riding feel. Since then they’ve incorporated some into their forks, production technologies have made incredible leaps since, so putting 2+2, my bet is on Fox trying to USD-fy their 40 for the second time!
It's not a question of doing, it's a question of selling it. What's the first thing people think when they see a Dorado? I bet it's...
It's not a question of doing, it's a question of selling it. What's the first thing people think when they see a Dorado? I bet it's something along the lines of "that has to be flexy". Visual perception has a lot to do with how we buy products, even if it doesn't make any sense.
Then wait for the designlanguage of future Fox forks…but as always, once we see it on a lot of bikes our eyes get used to it quicker. Remember when mudguard type fenders with 22 zipties were an eyesore
Yeah, obviously, when it becomes the norm there's no problem. If USD forks take over MTB, then RSU forks will be the ugly duckling. But for a company the size of Fox it's always a risk of the product not selling because of the visuals, regardless of the performance. Having enough OEM orders might be enough to push it through. But the likes of Intend, catering to a niche, can play around with the looks a lot more, if nothing else just for the hell of it or to actually stand out and be seen.
It's not a question of doing, it's a question of selling it. What's the first thing people think when they see a Dorado? I bet it's...
It's not a question of doing, it's a question of selling it. What's the first thing people think when they see a Dorado? I bet it's something along the lines of "that has to be flexy". Visual perception has a lot to do with how we buy products, even if it doesn't make any sense.
Then wait for the designlanguage of future Fox forks…but as always, once we see it on a lot of bikes our eyes get used to it...
Then wait for the designlanguage of future Fox forks…but as always, once we see it on a lot of bikes our eyes get used to it quicker. Remember when mudguard type fenders with 22 zipties were an eyesore
If Fox are the mfg, and the finished product looks anywhere near as sick as the old Honda RN-01 showa forks (kashima-colored tubes & stanchions) I doubt there'd be any issue selling. Example here Honda RN-01 G-cross - Wikipedia.
Yeah, obviously, when it becomes the norm there's no problem. If USD forks take over MTB, then RSU forks will be the ugly duckling. But for...
Yeah, obviously, when it becomes the norm there's no problem. If USD forks take over MTB, then RSU forks will be the ugly duckling. But for a company the size of Fox it's always a risk of the product not selling because of the visuals, regardless of the performance. Having enough OEM orders might be enough to push it through. But the likes of Intend, catering to a niche, can play around with the looks a lot more, if nothing else just for the hell of it or to actually stand out and be seen.
just make everything kashima, the lowers and the uppers, problem solved, enough idiots out there that just want gold:
One of the good points that Darren from Push made about stiffness with their new USD fork was that torsional stiffness was overblown because front wheel traction limits the amount of force the front wheel experiences while riding. While you may be able to brace the wheel with your legs and twist the handlebars to show some twisting, that level of force is substantially higher than what is experienced in normal riding.
I do take that with a grain of salt, since there was a little bit too much marketing speak from Push in the discussion but it was a good point.
FWIW a friend of mine is running a single crown Intend USD fork and says torsional stiffness or lack thereof is a non issue. Based on his and Darren's comments I would say that is very reasonable and it makes sense torsional stiffness really isn't an issue for a fork. The looks and perception point I was making still stands as until people genuinely try an "out there" product, they will have perceptions, assumptions and reservations, even if unfounded.
Any word on the release date? I'm not in the market for a DH bike, but the sooner the DH sled is released the sooner (hopefully)...
Any word on the release date? I'm not in the market for a DH bike, but the sooner the DH sled is released the sooner (hopefully) we'll see a new Enduro.
One of the good points that Darren from Push made about stiffness with their new USD fork was that torsional stiffness was overblown because front wheel...
One of the good points that Darren from Push made about stiffness with their new USD fork was that torsional stiffness was overblown because front wheel traction limits the amount of force the front wheel experiences while riding. While you may be able to brace the wheel with your legs and twist the handlebars to show some twisting, that level of force is substantially higher than what is experienced in normal riding.
I do take that with a grain of salt, since there was a little bit too much marketing speak from Push in the discussion but it was a good point.
Regarding stiffness - can’t remember who said it, it was one of the USD manufacturers if I remember correctly - the hub-fork-axle interface is one of the most crucial parts regarding stiffness. So if they can figure that part out - ideally without a proprietary hub - then they could be on to something good. I’d love a USD fork. Even if it’s just for the looks lol
I feel like this USD fork talk is kind of funny and sad. Ohlins is dropping out of advancing their mountain bike products, which is pretty telling that suspension is hitting a wall now, like frame design is. Yeah they could do USD on their forks for a few advantages but for what returns? Manitou, Intend, Push, hell, even Cannondale are doing USD forks and successfully for a while now. I think this big company, whether it is Fox or Sram, is hitting their wall and reinventing the wheel. USD will be the next hottest shit on the market because they do it now. I say we grow some hair on the chest and bring back long travel lefties and linkage forks that look like a plastic fork that was brought too close to a fire.
FWIW a friend of mine is running a single crown Intend USD fork and says torsional stiffness or lack thereof is a non issue. Based on...
FWIW a friend of mine is running a single crown Intend USD fork and says torsional stiffness or lack thereof is a non issue. Based on his and Darren's comments I would say that is very reasonable and it makes sense torsional stiffness really isn't an issue for a fork. The looks and perception point I was making still stands as until people genuinely try an "out there" product, they will have perceptions, assumptions and reservations, even if unfounded.
I respectfully disagree. I've been lucky enough to ride many USD vs traditional forks back to back over the years and the differences in torsional stiffness has always been off putting to me, albeit in certain scenarios. i.e. chunky off camber bits, rocky technical terrain where the fork is loaded and precision is key. They can be great in the right conditions, but overall the vagueness is not for me
A direct mount (200+ mm) brake seems quite bulky plus you usually have the need to align it to some degree...
Agree, but I'm just a bit cautious this time around thinking they're introducing a new standard solely for the greater good of everyone's convenience without a hidden catch in there somewhere.
Good to know on the Forbidden. Hopefully they incorporate this new 'standard' into their upcoming E-Druid.
Any word on the release date? I'm not in the market for a DH bike, but the sooner the DH sled is released the sooner (hopefully) we'll see a new Enduro.
UHB could really open up the market for aftermarket floating brake arms.
Curious, what's the hidden catch to UDH?
It's keyed to the axle/frame I believe, so I think it may take extensive modification to become floating?
maybe, maybe not? could just have an inner sleeve to it that interfaces with the keyed portion, then a bearing sleeve that rotates around it. obviously this is all conjecture based on the patent diagrams. i'm sure someone with enough ingenuity could figure it out.
The super interesting thing to me about that UBM patent is that it looks like the upper mount is floating and then secured by a pinch bolt the way some forks do.
Theoretically you’d have perfect alignment because the caliper is aligned by the hub endcap and the upper mount is just to counteract the brake torque.
Direct mount transmission. It wasn't really a catch though (unless you like adjustable dropouts), just the ulterior motive of moving everyone to a standardised dropout design.
And Splitpivot?
Yah ok, I wouldn't call that a catch either, and UDH seems like a win all around even tho SRAM had an ulterior motive...
You are right, but I also think most companies were trying to make their current frames work with the UDH and not come up with a long-term solution. There is no way you cannot have both.
I reckon either stay would work. The pivot & bearing would have to increase in diameter to accommodate the sleeve.
Considering split pivot was made to work with UDH, I guess this would work too.
Considering the way split pivot is designed (4-bar braking wise, brake mounted to seatstay) the UBM would have to be mounted to the seatstay, otherwise it would be a normal single pivot.
As for floating brake mounts, mounting UBM in a bearing should cover most of it, I'm only curious if it is bulky enough to handle being a floating arm...
As for fixation, I have another question or doubt. It's a pinch bolt (with an elongated hole by the looks of it to cover the tolerances) which makes it adaptable. But, if the post is inside the diameter of the rotor (at least the larger sizes), it is limited in length it can protrude from the chainstay. Then unless the post is flared at the end, I am wondering if the UBM can pop off it if the seatstay bends out of the way.
Having the UBM mounted mostly to the axle is great as theoretically you'll always have alignment to the hub and rotor, but if it's at the expense of it popping off the torque carrier (post), that's not really ideal... And even if it doesn't pop off, I'm wondering if the post and pinchbolt interface might get worn through time.
Some thoughts regarding that USD-fork-rumor: back when Fox decided against their USD-proto entering series production, they explained they couldn’t make it stiff enough without making it extra heavy with the current-for-that-time tech available. But that was, I think, the time when they were raving about having the stiffest dh-fork on the market - a feat that ended up being not so perfect as some needed flex proved to be beneficial to the riding feel. Since then they’ve incorporated some into their forks, production technologies have made incredible leaps since, so putting 2+2, my bet is on Fox trying to USD-fy their 40 for the second time!
this new one is also a bit heavier
if a small company like intend can do it, fox can do it. just don't expect the same level of detail from a mass produced product
What exactly has leaped production technology wise in the last 10 to 15 years?
We know USD forks are toesionally less stiff but much stiffer fore aft than RSU forks. What changed in the last 10 to 15 years since the Fox proto is the mass adoption of 29ers. That means longer fork legs, which overall lowers the stiffness. That's more or less it regarding changes.
What has changed is the understanding and subsequent development on the side of springs and dampers. That's where a lot of the performance is coming.
It's not a question of doing, it's a question of selling it. What's the first thing people think when they see a Dorado? I bet it's something along the lines of "that has to be flexy". Visual perception has a lot to do with how we buy products, even if it doesn't make any sense.
Then wait for the designlanguage of future Fox forks…but as always, once we see it on a lot of bikes our eyes get used to it quicker. Remember when mudguard type fenders with 22 zipties were an eyesore
Yeah, obviously, when it becomes the norm there's no problem. If USD forks take over MTB, then RSU forks will be the ugly duckling. But for a company the size of Fox it's always a risk of the product not selling because of the visuals, regardless of the performance. Having enough OEM orders might be enough to push it through. But the likes of Intend, catering to a niche, can play around with the looks a lot more, if nothing else just for the hell of it or to actually stand out and be seen.
If Fox are the mfg, and the finished product looks anywhere near as sick as the old Honda RN-01 showa forks (kashima-colored tubes & stanchions) I doubt there'd be any issue selling. Example here Honda RN-01 G-cross - Wikipedia.
just make everything kashima, the lowers and the uppers, problem solved, enough idiots out there that just want gold:
One of the good points that Darren from Push made about stiffness with their new USD fork was that torsional stiffness was overblown because front wheel traction limits the amount of force the front wheel experiences while riding. While you may be able to brace the wheel with your legs and twist the handlebars to show some twisting, that level of force is substantially higher than what is experienced in normal riding.
I do take that with a grain of salt, since there was a little bit too much marketing speak from Push in the discussion but it was a good point.
FWIW a friend of mine is running a single crown Intend USD fork and says torsional stiffness or lack thereof is a non issue. Based on his and Darren's comments I would say that is very reasonable and it makes sense torsional stiffness really isn't an issue for a fork. The looks and perception point I was making still stands as until people genuinely try an "out there" product, they will have perceptions, assumptions and reservations, even if unfounded.
My guess is: right after Bruni's next win on it
Regarding stiffness - can’t remember who said it, it was one of the USD manufacturers if I remember correctly - the hub-fork-axle interface is one of the most crucial parts regarding stiffness. So if they can figure that part out - ideally without a proprietary hub - then they could be on to something good.
I’d love a USD fork. Even if it’s just for the looks lol
I feel like this USD fork talk is kind of funny and sad. Ohlins is dropping out of advancing their mountain bike products, which is pretty telling that suspension is hitting a wall now, like frame design is. Yeah they could do USD on their forks for a few advantages but for what returns? Manitou, Intend, Push, hell, even Cannondale are doing USD forks and successfully for a while now. I think this big company, whether it is Fox or Sram, is hitting their wall and reinventing the wheel. USD will be the next hottest shit on the market because they do it now. I say we grow some hair on the chest and bring back long travel lefties and linkage forks that look like a plastic fork that was brought too close to a fire.
I respectfully disagree. I've been lucky enough to ride many USD vs traditional forks back to back over the years and the differences in torsional stiffness has always been off putting to me, albeit in certain scenarios. i.e. chunky off camber bits, rocky technical terrain where the fork is loaded and precision is key. They can be great in the right conditions, but overall the vagueness is not for me