Hello Vital MTB Visitor,
We’re conducting a survey and would appreciate your input. Your answers will help Vital and the MTB industry better understand what riders like you want. Survey results will be used to recognize top brands. Make your voice heard!
Five lucky people will be selected at random to win a Vital MTB t-shirt.
Thanks in advance,
The Vital MTB Crew
thats what XT RD-M8130 is for
I only see very specific group benefiting and that would be people riding marathons and super long endurance stuff/bikepacking with MTBs where you could target specific cadence so smaller gear change should in theory help, XCO is already too dynamic for any of that to make sense and the same goes for trail and enduro riding.
I went from 12s back to 11s and honestly never felt any difference (wallet did though), I'd try 10s if there was a viable option for widerange cassette - Deore 10s exists but cassette is crazy heavy for non mechanized bikes and I know about microshift but reviews were not really good on mech durability so I stuck with tested Shimano.
In my opinion 12S and higer is heavily based on marketing as you can get the same wide range (like 50T and bigger cogs) on less gears and that is still completely usable for virtually anyone. The only real difference is the famous 500% range which resulted in new freehubs that are both more complex and consequently expensive - iirc XD cassettes are generally lighter, but this is not really the case for MS and again companies like Garbaruk have shown you can make really light HG cassettes with similar prices compared to the top XD/MS models. So if you compare 11s 11-50T to 12s 10-50T you get on paper 450% vs 500% range but in reality the only difference is from 11T to 10T on the lowest cog and that does not nearly results in actual 50% difference when you pedal... But yeah, more gears sounds cooler. Anyone else agrees with me?
12s was developed for road bikes, and just ported over to MTB. Were not special and a tiny tiny portion of the bike market. SRAM and Shimano developed 12s for road/touring commuter etc where they will sell 90% of their drive trains, and it has a legit usage there, so you can do 1x 12s setups on road and its actually usable.
We got given 12s because thats where the R&D tech went, they developed new chains and ramp tech bla bla bla, and just ported it over to us. You're right, you really don't need 12s vs 11s on a mountain bike, but they already made it anyway.
I went back to 11 speed on all of my bikes about 4 years ago. I find it far less finicky than 12 speed to set up and spending less on wear items suits me fine.
Dura Ace R9200 12 speed was launched August 2021, XTR M9100 12 speed was launched 3 years prior in May 2018.
Sram Eagle was launched in March 2016, Sram Red (D1?) 12 speed was launched 3 years later in February 2019.
12 speed was always developed for mountain bike first. wide range cassette bigger than 11-36 were for mountain bike first with Sram XX1 10-42 in october 2012 and 2015 for Shimano M8000 11-42 cassette and another 12-15 month for XT M8000 11-46 cassette.
And no road is not 90% of Shimano Sales, I would say 50% is road, 30% budget low end stuff and 20% MTB but never found an accurate breakdown per segment from shimano financial reports as it's a publicly traded company in Japan.
https://contents.xj-storage.jp/xcontents/AS02673/b8c14aac/6ce8/47d2/8bec/5bfa3f41b8ff/20241029154741018s.pdf
We already have the outline of the group, with no reason to think KTM were lying/wrong (especially since the catalog has been edited now). There won't be anything 13s.
I didnt say Trek shouldnt make the bike,
I suggested that you, or anyone else, could, likely for similar money, have a custom built bike from an independent (read boutique) builder...
You might be trying too hard to find something to argue about.....
I've also got that quote in mind and build my hopes upon it. But even if they make one, probably the electronic stuff is released first...
I'll say this as someone who owns a custom designed boutique full suspension steel bike made by a single Canadian guy which is rad:
It seems like your theory that for similar money you could go full custom is based upon the assumption that Trek wouldn't simply put this into production in Asia after prototyping it a bit more. If they do that I'm not sure why this would really be any more expensive than something comparable in their lineup. Other than stuff like Marino (which IMO, is not comparable), anything approaching this level of refinement is going to be significantly more expensive. Thinking of builders off the top of my head, a fully from Waltworks runs 4k USD, Daambuilt is like $4750 CAD, Wildwood's are over 6, and even Ferrum, once you get onto a platform with similar refinement to Trek's, is 3500 USD. That gives Trek quite a bit of breathing room, especially if they're done over in Asia. Further, none of the above-quoted prices include rear suspension.
@hitar - its funny you say the Claymore's leverage curve seems like the right application for a coil but that's exactly why I went air - I wanted more control over the ramp in the linear initial and mid stroke and also keep the bike similar but differentiated from my Aurum HSP.
@nico - I guess we'll have to see how the frame/bearings/linkages hold up!
Wow your totally right. I stand. Corrected. Thanks for the info.
Thought the progressive nature of your frame would play better with a coil shock. That’s a general rule I know - got a linear frame: put an air shock on it which is progressive; got a progressive frame: go with a linear coil.
Yes. And that new Saint is still in the works.
Scale, simply scale
Trek doing a limited run of steel bikes, that they prototype, test, R&D, blah blah blah is going to be the same money as a boutique builder, its not likely to be a mass market, asia produced bike, so theres no scaling available to eat the associated costs. Id be willing to bet, its one of the most expensive mountain bikes they make, if they put it out.
If Trek does the front end in steel and keeps the rear end either carbon or aluminum from the existing model they can do it very reasonably priced. The rear end is where the complexity is with stuff like the yokes, dropouts, and bridges. The rocker link is also carryover. No new development or tooling cost for this. The major r&d costs of a new model are already sunk in the current design. Relatively small costs to now produce a steel front end and fatigue test it.
Also production shops in Taiwan are near idle right now so more than a few of them would likely bid low on the batch to keep their top welders busy.
Granted it's a different market condition now than it was a few years ago but this is the mainstream company that made 1.5 generations of stache and 1120, and one generation of the full stache and CARBON farley ex (!), so they aren't afraid to commit to some weird stuff.
Honestly being different with a few half-steel trail bikes might be exactly what they need to differentiate themselves in a tight late 202X market.
As Earl puts it, if they take more or less exactly what they have now, including the existing rear ends, they can make these for a reasonable price. At that point scale isn't a huge issue but I think that with suspension and geometry so dialed right now, Trek could actually sell a decent bit of these in a 2-3 generation.
Personally, I really like small gaps between gears. Being able to have a gear that I can match to the slope, my power output, and what cadence is comfortable to me given the amount of energy I have is awesome, and having more gears with smaller steps between them gives that to me. It's not something I would say I need, I do pretty well with my current 12 speed 10-51 shimano cassettes, but having another gear and making the smallest ring a 9 tooth would be awesome, so long as the chain isn't compromised. I am also hearing 13 speed Shimano from my Shimano guy, don't know when it is releasing though.
It might be me but if I'm buying a steel bike (for the feel, longevity etc.) I'd want the whole thing to be steel.
I feel that same way. Like a Kangrabbit from Jackalope bikes seems cool but Id like for the rear triangle to be steel too. I like my flex personally and the high frequency muted feeling of steel. A Starling Swoop is on my to buy list.
If you ride hard a steel rear end isn't actually all that it's cracked up to be for longevity (heh), except the fact you can pay someone to make a new one. I've never ridden a half and half bike so I can't comment on how great a difference in feel there is between that and a fully steel bike, but I have cracked two steel rear ends in my life.
I'm ready to be downvoted, but here's a hot take - I think most of the $1500+ steel HT frames from "boutique" builders are marketing BS. Titanium is hard to weld correctly, so I'll cut some slack for TI stuff. Al needs to be heat treated. But steel? Your local car shop/welder can penetrate weld. No amount of "custom geo" "bespoke" "compliance" "insert new hot word here" is going to make some welded steel tubes that was aligned on a jig be worth that amount of money. Reynold steel tubes cost 30-40 for a downtube/toptube section.Full suspension alignment is a lot harder so I won't comment on that.
dunno but i wouldn't buy a bike welded by the car shop around the corner
Not sure the muffler shop knows which wall thickness or tubeset to spec on a downtube vs. chainstays, either
99% of the car shop welders have never touched a thin wall steel tube and will blow holes into their first few tube sets. Their heat control will also turn the alignment into a pretzel.
Majority of custom frame builders aren't making a living selling the number of frames they do make at the rate they charge.
But don't you understand, the only thing that determines frame cost is material cost.
Ignore all the expertise required, frame design, cutting, building jigs, years of practice, warranty allowance etc.
Tubes are $50 a pop, 6 tubes, my frame should be $300 from my local car shop.
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever expertise or warranty allowance involved, it's hard to justify a $1500+ usd steel hardtail frame, especially when there's FS frames AND TI hardtail frames for that price. My carshop example was a bad one I'll admit that. Actually this becomes a question in itself and I'd be happy if y'all can educate me - what makes a steel hardtail worth so much? Just for context - there's a norco optic frame on sale at Jenson for sub $1200, I got my Turner scrub TI frame last BF for $1100, and the highly praised banshee paradox v3 frame is available for $700. What makes your "boutique" steel frames better than any of the above? It's not going to outlast a TI frame, it's not going to be as comfortable as a FS, and it's not as cheap as any of the above.
As others have said, very few custom frame builders are getting rich out of their endeavours. It may be hard for YOU to justify the cost, but for someone wanting to go down the road of buying one of these bikes the value will be there for them and they will be able to justify spending that amount. No one is forcing people to buy these bikes and I for one am glad the option exists. I used to own a steel hardtail built by Swarf Cycles and it was night and day a better product, both in build quality and ride quality, than the mass produced steel frame from Orange that I'd owned previously.
What do you want, frame builders working for below minimum wage to meet your idea of what is and isn't good value?
I don't know, I got a pretty sick frame when I was at Jiffy Lube last week getting my oil changed...
On a serious tip... I think it's about supporting the little guy, knowing a guy sweat over welding YOUR personalized one-off frame, that feels unique. On paper is there higher real market value compared to the same frame from Trek, no. But, different things have different value for each of us.
A $1500+ small batch steel hardtail frame,
a $1200 Norco Optic frame,
a $1100 Turner Scrub TI frame,
and a $700 Banshee Paradox V3 frame.
All of these frames have objectively different ride qualities, and many more subjective differences. You can decide to value them however you like. The market has decided to rank their value in this order. Also see: wine, collector's cars, fashion, cigars, concert tickets, art. What's the correct value for any of these things? If a frog had pockets, what would it carry in them?
Well now Im just thinking about a cute frog with pockets. Thats pretty valuable in my opinion.
Edit: Vital, I saw your email about the cyber Monday deals and I was browsing the Vital clothing, can we get an “Everything is a Crab Bike” shirt?
Labour is always a huge chunk of cost - it will easily take a half a day for a very good builder to produce a frame but that requires expensive machines which drives up the cost. Thin wall tubes need much better equipment for cutting and welding as well as the expertise required. Making stuff by hand is hard - anyone who's produced a part a frame themselves could see how tough it is to make money from it. But think of the opppsite view - a mass produced frame that is pumped out all day every day still costs maybe 50-75% as a bespoke one-off bike? The small time builder will have much lower profit too. I do agree that just because something is bespoke it isn't necessarily any better - but a good steel frame can be nicer than titanium and probably beter value- Ti is hard to work with so finding one that is both built well and rides good is easier said than done