On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by...
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by the evolution of my personal knowledge, but it seems to me that
- the consumers swayed by things like "VPP" have moved on to being swayed by electronic shifting and suspension gadgets and other similar things,
- more educated consumers are mainly looking at curves as they are now widely available and a good chunk of us have some idea what they mean,
- the layout/type of suspension is more a matter of bike nerdery than something that impacts an informed buying decision (other than maybe the stress the layout puts on the shock).
Am I way off base on this? Do people still care whether a frame is VPP or not?
I agree with this. Spent 4 years on DW link from Turner, Ripmo V1 and V2. Then 3 years on horst links from Transition, Norco, and...
I agree with this. Spent 4 years on DW link from Turner, Ripmo V1 and V2. Then 3 years on horst links from Transition, Norco, and Specialized. (with single pivot from a Nukeproof Giga thrown in there) I did instantly feel the "magic" of VPP pedaling my Santa around on pavement after I built it, but if say SC made the leverage curve much more linear like Spesh did with the SJ 15 I'm out. I scroll linkagedesign.blogspot.com in the same way I scroll Vital or the other site. Moderate interest in electronic shocks but very happy letting engineering and physics do the "thinking" atm. Shoutout to @CascadeComponents for making my Patrol an amazing park bike and saving my SJ Evo (WRP saved that one too).
VPP magic pedalling it around? V2 Hightowers I see in my riding group all bob like crazy and everybody switches the shock platform on when it's...
VPP magic pedalling it around? V2 Hightowers I see in my riding group all bob like crazy and everybody switches the shock platform on when it's time to go up. Or did you mean something else by magic?
Regarding the Transition (if it looks like a duck...), the seattube is hella bent and low insertion length, unlike what the Sentinel has:
No modern bike with anti-squat at or around 100% should be bobbing like crazy if the shock has the right pressure/spring rate. Imo, VPP does feel more active but in terms of ground input not from my pedaling force or weight. It's better than my horst bikes on very techy climbs. Every bike I listed in the original comment has climbed great and has not warranted use of a climb switch.
Doesn't SRAM/RS own the patent for putting sag markings on stanchions?
They do. Formula got creative and put a frequency/ekg graphic on their shock that just so happened to correspond to sag numbers. Surprised others haven’t done some creative workaround.
That has already happened. Scott and Transition went 4 bar to name two (there are others I can't remember right now) while YT and Canyon expanded...
That has already happened. Scott and Transition went 4 bar to name two (there are others I can't remember right now) while YT and Canyon expanded into the North American market after the patent ran out.
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by...
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by the evolution of my personal knowledge, but it seems to me that
- the consumers swayed by things like "VPP" have moved on to being swayed by electronic shifting and suspension gadgets and other similar things,
- more educated consumers are mainly looking at curves as they are now widely available and a good chunk of us have some idea what they mean,
- the layout/type of suspension is more a matter of bike nerdery than something that impacts an informed buying decision (other than maybe the stress the layout puts on the shock).
Am I way off base on this? Do people still care whether a frame is VPP or not?
Redigging this up because I know some companies lurk here and in a way, comprehensive messages may be influential. A point I want to stress is how boring 50% of the market is. Its 4 Bar bikes. As someone else stated, its easy to make 4 bar bikes and easier to make them mediocre. It sure seems like a lot of companies copy and paste the same 4 bar design over and over and say its the second coming of Jesus. I give credit to Specialized that for a little I had their frames. They had SWAT. No one else had this. Now its more common and 4 bar frame storage bikes are going to be the norm. I guess my point is, if youre going to do 4 bar, do something unique with your frame to stand out from other 4 bar copy and pastes your competing against. Rant over. Sorry guys.
Hoping it's a 180mm freeride/park bike like I've bastardized my Patrol into! It being trunion maybe points to that? The current TR11 is not trunion and...
Hoping it's a 180mm freeride/park bike like I've bastardized my Patrol into! It being trunion maybe points to that? The current TR11 is not trunion and the consensus seems to be trunion is just for the packaging being able to fit a water bottle, I'm convinced 170/180mm rear dual crown bikes are the future for rental fleets those of us who don't race DH. Transition totally deserves to be contending with the alliteration of the Status 170 DH, Spindrift, Slayer, and Shore.
Bring back the Bottlerocket and give it a little more travel. I think that namesake deserves a return at some point. I know I LOVED mine. Such a fun and versatile bike. But apparently for it to be that style of bike, it has to start with the letter 'S'?
Wow 1 whole mm difference in chainstay length between the size S and M! Imagine how much cheaper the bike could be with only 2 or 3 carbon moulds for the chainstays instead of 5. We've reached peak "size specific chainstays" marketing hype.
Redigging this up because I know some companies lurk here and in a way, comprehensive messages may be influential. A point I want to stress is...
Redigging this up because I know some companies lurk here and in a way, comprehensive messages may be influential. A point I want to stress is how boring 50% of the market is. Its 4 Bar bikes. As someone else stated, its easy to make 4 bar bikes and easier to make them mediocre. It sure seems like a lot of companies copy and paste the same 4 bar design over and over and say its the second coming of Jesus. I give credit to Specialized that for a little I had their frames. They had SWAT. No one else had this. Now its more common and 4 bar frame storage bikes are going to be the norm. I guess my point is, if youre going to do 4 bar, do something unique with your frame to stand out from other 4 bar copy and pastes your competing against. Rant over. Sorry guys.
Interesting take- I'm kinda the opposite. I like seeing the convergence of designs and features. At this point companies have to sweat the details and provide superior value to get business.
I want a reliable, good value that does what it's supposed to do... Don't care if the bike is different or rare.
Interesting take- I'm kinda the opposite. I like seeing the convergence of designs and features. At this point companies have to sweat the details and provide...
Interesting take- I'm kinda the opposite. I like seeing the convergence of designs and features. At this point companies have to sweat the details and provide superior value to get business.
I want a reliable, good value that does what it's supposed to do... Don't care if the bike is different or rare.
Gonna agree with this, give me "boring" but good geo and kinematics and looks, but give me decent value and warranty. Obviously this would apply to a lot of the main brands, plenty of smaller players can do the niche stuff...
Wow 1 whole mm difference in chainstay length between the size S and M! Imagine how much cheaper the bike could be with only 2 or...
Wow 1 whole mm difference in chainstay length between the size S and M! Imagine how much cheaper the bike could be with only 2 or 3 carbon moulds for the chainstays instead of 5. We've reached peak "size specific chainstays" marketing hype.
I think only the main Pivot has diffrent Position. So you only need one chainstay length
Definitely RS stanchion. The air sleeve looks like either a prototype version of the new Linear XL air can, or the next generation of it (the XL portion looks even longer). I wouldn't mind that new rebound adjuster, the dial adjust on the top right now has the clicks very close together and they're pretty fine. In some frames where access is tough it can be hard to count clicks. I wonder if they're reworking the damper end to include TouchDown? I just tried a Linear XL air can on my SD compared to my Vivid, and while there's some noticeable difference in the air spring feel, the difference in damper feel is very different (favoring Vivid).
Wow 1 whole mm difference in chainstay length between the size S and M! Imagine how much cheaper the bike could be with only 2 or...
Wow 1 whole mm difference in chainstay length between the size S and M! Imagine how much cheaper the bike could be with only 2 or 3 carbon moulds for the chainstays instead of 5. We've reached peak "size specific chainstays" marketing hype.
Given that it's almost certainly a different main pivot position, it gives a clue that they're tweaking kinematics (most likely anti-squat) for every size. This is important because AS changes with wheelbase and with respect to the height of the centre of the sprung mass, which is obviously different for different sizes and different rider heights. Even if they might not have been able to make a meaningful difference to the geometry due to clearances, they've likely still made useful changes that help the different sizes perform similarly.
Redigging this up because I know some companies lurk here and in a way, comprehensive messages may be influential. A point I want to stress is...
Redigging this up because I know some companies lurk here and in a way, comprehensive messages may be influential. A point I want to stress is how boring 50% of the market is. Its 4 Bar bikes. As someone else stated, its easy to make 4 bar bikes and easier to make them mediocre. It sure seems like a lot of companies copy and paste the same 4 bar design over and over and say its the second coming of Jesus. I give credit to Specialized that for a little I had their frames. They had SWAT. No one else had this. Now its more common and 4 bar frame storage bikes are going to be the norm. I guess my point is, if youre going to do 4 bar, do something unique with your frame to stand out from other 4 bar copy and pastes your competing against. Rant over. Sorry guys.
Personal opinions aside, in most markets you'll see a convergence of design. This is especially true with a market that is heavily influenced by performance of a product or system being most heavily valued by the consumer of the product. The more the underlying form needs to adhere to very rigid design criteria for an intended function, optimization will likely yield at most a handful and at least a single design that will win out. Straying from this "best" design will put you at a significant disadvantage, especially when the product itself is intended to do something more than just "look cool".
I'd argue we value performance more than anything in the mountain bike space hence the trend of things looking similar will probably continue (or intensify). While I don't think they'll be one singular design, I do think we're way past where we were in the early 2000s, where there were seemingly endless suspension and geometry configurations.
Don't believe me? Just look at other two wheel'd sports like off road moto, where most bikes follow similar lines, geomtery, and suspension layout. Another example would be something like jetliners where there are nuanced differences, but more or less all commercial airliners look alike.
Redigging this up because I know some companies lurk here and in a way, comprehensive messages may be influential. A point I want to stress is...
Redigging this up because I know some companies lurk here and in a way, comprehensive messages may be influential. A point I want to stress is how boring 50% of the market is. Its 4 Bar bikes. As someone else stated, its easy to make 4 bar bikes and easier to make them mediocre. It sure seems like a lot of companies copy and paste the same 4 bar design over and over and say its the second coming of Jesus. I give credit to Specialized that for a little I had their frames. They had SWAT. No one else had this. Now its more common and 4 bar frame storage bikes are going to be the norm. I guess my point is, if youre going to do 4 bar, do something unique with your frame to stand out from other 4 bar copy and pastes your competing against. Rant over. Sorry guys.
Personal opinions aside, in most markets you'll see a convergence of design. This is especially true with a market that is heavily influenced by performance of...
Personal opinions aside, in most markets you'll see a convergence of design. This is especially true with a market that is heavily influenced by performance of a product or system being most heavily valued by the consumer of the product. The more the underlying form needs to adhere to very rigid design criteria for an intended function, optimization will likely yield at most a handful and at least a single design that will win out. Straying from this "best" design will put you at a significant disadvantage, especially when the product itself is intended to do something more than just "look cool".
I'd argue we value performance more than anything in the mountain bike space hence the trend of things looking similar will probably continue (or intensify). While I don't think they'll be one singular design, I do think we're way past where we were in the early 2000s, where there were seemingly endless suspension and geometry configurations.
Don't believe me? Just look at other two wheel'd sports like off road moto, where most bikes follow similar lines, geomtery, and suspension layout. Another example would be something like jetliners where there are nuanced differences, but more or less all commercial airliners look alike.
Alright Ill take it back. When you mention the comparison of other industries. We are spoiled. Im spoiled. Ill be quiet.
Alright Ill take it back. When you mention the comparison of other industries. We are spoiled. Im spoiled. Ill be quiet.
Don't take it back! You have a point! You'll still find plenty of interesting stuff out there, but you'll probably have to pay (a lot more) for it and it will get pushed more and more to the edges of the market. That's all.
Wow 1 whole mm difference in chainstay length between the size S and M! Imagine how much cheaper the bike could be with only 2 or...
Wow 1 whole mm difference in chainstay length between the size S and M! Imagine how much cheaper the bike could be with only 2 or 3 carbon moulds for the chainstays instead of 5. We've reached peak "size specific chainstays" marketing hype.
Given that it's almost certainly a different main pivot position, it gives a clue that they're tweaking kinematics (most likely anti-squat) for every size. This is...
Given that it's almost certainly a different main pivot position, it gives a clue that they're tweaking kinematics (most likely anti-squat) for every size. This is important because AS changes with wheelbase and with respect to the height of the centre of the sprung mass, which is obviously different for different sizes and different rider heights. Even if they might not have been able to make a meaningful difference to the geometry due to clearances, they've likely still made useful changes that help the different sizes perform similarly.
Just speculation!
Luckily with a higher CoG (taller riders) you usually get a longer wheelbase and the two effects kinda cancel eachouther out.
Wow 1 whole mm difference in chainstay length between the size S and M! Imagine how much cheaper the bike could be with only 2 or...
Wow 1 whole mm difference in chainstay length between the size S and M! Imagine how much cheaper the bike could be with only 2 or 3 carbon moulds for the chainstays instead of 5. We've reached peak "size specific chainstays" marketing hype.
Given that it's almost certainly a different main pivot position, it gives a clue that they're tweaking kinematics (most likely anti-squat) for every size. This is...
Given that it's almost certainly a different main pivot position, it gives a clue that they're tweaking kinematics (most likely anti-squat) for every size. This is important because AS changes with wheelbase and with respect to the height of the centre of the sprung mass, which is obviously different for different sizes and different rider heights. Even if they might not have been able to make a meaningful difference to the geometry due to clearances, they've likely still made useful changes that help the different sizes perform similarly.
Personal opinions aside, in most markets you'll see a convergence of design. This is especially true with a market that is heavily influenced by performance of...
Personal opinions aside, in most markets you'll see a convergence of design. This is especially true with a market that is heavily influenced by performance of a product or system being most heavily valued by the consumer of the product. The more the underlying form needs to adhere to very rigid design criteria for an intended function, optimization will likely yield at most a handful and at least a single design that will win out. Straying from this "best" design will put you at a significant disadvantage, especially when the product itself is intended to do something more than just "look cool".
I'd argue we value performance more than anything in the mountain bike space hence the trend of things looking similar will probably continue (or intensify). While I don't think they'll be one singular design, I do think we're way past where we were in the early 2000s, where there were seemingly endless suspension and geometry configurations.
Don't believe me? Just look at other two wheel'd sports like off road moto, where most bikes follow similar lines, geomtery, and suspension layout. Another example would be something like jetliners where there are nuanced differences, but more or less all commercial airliners look alike.
So kind of like the biological world where everything becomes a crab.
Gesundheit.
that would be Molybdändisulfid then
You can also see the reflection of the reverb axs with the battery on the collar in the car
This guy right here, looking at reflections, is why I keep coming to this post :D
I stand corrected. Almost as good as Tungsten Disulfide,then. Same type of lubrication
No modern bike with anti-squat at or around 100% should be bobbing like crazy if the shock has the right pressure/spring rate. Imo, VPP does feel more active but in terms of ground input not from my pedaling force or weight. It's better than my horst bikes on very techy climbs. Every bike I listed in the original comment has climbed great and has not warranted use of a climb switch.
These knobs give me Manitou vibes
Doesn't SRAM/RS own the patent for putting sag markings on stanchions?
They do. Formula got creative and put a frequency/ekg graphic on their shock that just so happened to correspond to sag numbers. Surprised others haven’t done some creative workaround.
Bosch with a bunch of improvements to their CX Performance line: https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/power-meets-control-bosch-a….
Redigging this up because I know some companies lurk here and in a way, comprehensive messages may be influential. A point I want to stress is how boring 50% of the market is. Its 4 Bar bikes. As someone else stated, its easy to make 4 bar bikes and easier to make them mediocre. It sure seems like a lot of companies copy and paste the same 4 bar design over and over and say its the second coming of Jesus. I give credit to Specialized that for a little I had their frames. They had SWAT. No one else had this. Now its more common and 4 bar frame storage bikes are going to be the norm. I guess my point is, if youre going to do 4 bar, do something unique with your frame to stand out from other 4 bar copy and pastes your competing against. Rant over. Sorry guys.
Norco soft-launching their new VLT CX (with the new Bosch motor just announced today): https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/new-norco-sight-vlt-cx-drop….
Bring back the Bottlerocket and give it a little more travel. I think that namesake deserves a return at some point. I know I LOVED mine. Such a fun and versatile bike. But apparently for it to be that style of bike, it has to start with the letter 'S'?
evo leaked the geo for the vala!
https://www.evo.com/santa-cruz-vala-mountain-bike-size-chart
2025 Trek Rail+
160/160 MX
Bike still not up on website, I guess it'll drop at 12PM EST ?
Wow 1 whole mm difference in chainstay length between the size S and M! Imagine how much cheaper the bike could be with only 2 or 3 carbon moulds for the chainstays instead of 5. We've reached peak "size specific chainstays" marketing hype.
Interesting take- I'm kinda the opposite. I like seeing the convergence of designs and features. At this point companies have to sweat the details and provide superior value to get business.
I want a reliable, good value that does what it's supposed to do... Don't care if the bike is different or rare.
Gonna agree with this, give me "boring" but good geo and kinematics and looks, but give me decent value and warranty. Obviously this would apply to a lot of the main brands, plenty of smaller players can do the niche stuff...
Good eye. I got excited about the shock and cropped the dropper… amateur hour. Here’s the full photo with the dropper
I think only the main Pivot has diffrent Position. So you only need one chainstay length
Definitely RS stanchion. The air sleeve looks like either a prototype version of the new Linear XL air can, or the next generation of it (the XL portion looks even longer). I wouldn't mind that new rebound adjuster, the dial adjust on the top right now has the clicks very close together and they're pretty fine. In some frames where access is tough it can be hard to count clicks. I wonder if they're reworking the damper end to include TouchDown? I just tried a Linear XL air can on my SD compared to my Vivid, and while there's some noticeable difference in the air spring feel, the difference in damper feel is very different (favoring Vivid).
DebonAir making a comeback?
Given that it's almost certainly a different main pivot position, it gives a clue that they're tweaking kinematics (most likely anti-squat) for every size. This is important because AS changes with wheelbase and with respect to the height of the centre of the sprung mass, which is obviously different for different sizes and different rider heights. Even if they might not have been able to make a meaningful difference to the geometry due to clearances, they've likely still made useful changes that help the different sizes perform similarly.
Just speculation!
Personal opinions aside, in most markets you'll see a convergence of design. This is especially true with a market that is heavily influenced by performance of a product or system being most heavily valued by the consumer of the product. The more the underlying form needs to adhere to very rigid design criteria for an intended function, optimization will likely yield at most a handful and at least a single design that will win out. Straying from this "best" design will put you at a significant disadvantage, especially when the product itself is intended to do something more than just "look cool".
I'd argue we value performance more than anything in the mountain bike space hence the trend of things looking similar will probably continue (or intensify). While I don't think they'll be one singular design, I do think we're way past where we were in the early 2000s, where there were seemingly endless suspension and geometry configurations.
Don't believe me? Just look at other two wheel'd sports like off road moto, where most bikes follow similar lines, geomtery, and suspension layout. Another example would be something like jetliners where there are nuanced differences, but more or less all commercial airliners look alike.
Alright Ill take it back. When you mention the comparison of other industries. We are spoiled. Im spoiled. Ill be quiet.
Don't take it back! You have a point! You'll still find plenty of interesting stuff out there, but you'll probably have to pay (a lot more) for it and it will get pushed more and more to the edges of the market. That's all.
Luckily with a higher CoG (taller riders) you usually get a longer wheelbase and the two effects kinda cancel eachouther out.
That stack height looks high, like it's at least 40mm, maybe 50.
Yup. Esp now that bikes are scaling better with size.
So kind of like the biological world where everything becomes a crab.