Got to ride my countershox today for the first time:There‘s definitely a noticeable change in how the front end rides and tracks, not comparable to anything...
Got to ride my countershox today for the first time:
There‘s definitely a noticeable change in how the front end rides and tracks, not comparable to anything I could achieve with suspension setup or something else. The front wheel is in contact with the ground a lot more times and it takes the harsh impact out of big compressions.
Only did a couple runs but keen to try it more over full days when arm pump becomes an issue.
I want to try to make a mount for the rear swingarm to try how it feels on the unsprung mass (like mondraker are running theirs but I can see them having a very different unit developed specifically for that).
The front end does feel a bit harder to lift just because of the added weight. (mostly because of the already really heavy dorado fork).
Heavier* 300g more than fox + 500g Countershox + 1500g front tire makes for a burly front end.
If you had a Fox, you’d still be using the same tire and the same countershox device, so your front end would still have a 500g countershox + 1500g tire. So the Dorado ain’t the problem!
Ontopic: what’s happening with the new Gambler, any news about it?
Rumor is the new gambler doesn't ride as expected. Apparently they didn't make an alloy test mule. So the bike for sale is delayed so Scott can tweak it a bit.
That has already happened. Scott and Transition went 4 bar to name two (there are others I can't remember right now) while YT and Canyon expanded...
That has already happened. Scott and Transition went 4 bar to name two (there are others I can't remember right now) while YT and Canyon expanded into the North American market after the patent ran out.
Yep, plus Marin and several others. Wonder if we will end up with this being the dominant design across the whole industry.
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by the evolution of my personal knowledge, but it seems to me that
- the consumers swayed by things like "VPP" have moved on to being swayed by electronic shifting and suspension gadgets and other similar things,
- more educated consumers are mainly looking at curves as they are now widely available and a good chunk of us have some idea what they mean,
- the layout/type of suspension is more a matter of bike nerdery than something that impacts an informed buying decision (other than maybe the stress the layout puts on the shock).
Am I way off base on this? Do people still care whether a frame is VPP or not?
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by...
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by the evolution of my personal knowledge, but it seems to me that
- the consumers swayed by things like "VPP" have moved on to being swayed by electronic shifting and suspension gadgets and other similar things,
- more educated consumers are mainly looking at curves as they are now widely available and a good chunk of us have some idea what they mean,
- the layout/type of suspension is more a matter of bike nerdery than something that impacts an informed buying decision (other than maybe the stress the layout puts on the shock).
Am I way off base on this? Do people still care whether a frame is VPP or not?
Honestly don't care much what suspension layout is on my bike. Right now it happens to be VPP but I've been able to make any bike I've had in the last 7 or so years feel good and they've all been different. I have to say VPP took the least amount of tinkering to make it feel right but that's just to my own preferences, next bike will likely be single pivot because why the hell not.
That has already happened. Scott and Transition went 4 bar to name two (there are others I can't remember right now) while YT and Canyon expanded...
That has already happened. Scott and Transition went 4 bar to name two (there are others I can't remember right now) while YT and Canyon expanded into the North American market after the patent ran out.
Yep, plus Marin and several others. Wonder if we will end up with this being the dominant design across the whole industry.
It already is, but I don't think it's because it's an objectively better system, it's just easier to tune, predictable, and cheaper to manufacture. At the same time, it's easy for a 4 bar bike to be incredibly mediocre. Non offensive, like oatmeal, but not super exciting. I think that Norco makes a great 4 bar bike, I've really enjoyed my sight, but canyons I've had the chance to ride have never been very special to me.
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by...
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by the evolution of my personal knowledge, but it seems to me that
- the consumers swayed by things like "VPP" have moved on to being swayed by electronic shifting and suspension gadgets and other similar things,
- more educated consumers are mainly looking at curves as they are now widely available and a good chunk of us have some idea what they mean,
- the layout/type of suspension is more a matter of bike nerdery than something that impacts an informed buying decision (other than maybe the stress the layout puts on the shock).
Am I way off base on this? Do people still care whether a frame is VPP or not?
Honestly don't care much what suspension layout is on my bike. Right now it happens to be VPP but I've been able to make any bike...
Honestly don't care much what suspension layout is on my bike. Right now it happens to be VPP but I've been able to make any bike I've had in the last 7 or so years feel good and they've all been different. I have to say VPP took the least amount of tinkering to make it feel right but that's just to my own preferences, next bike will likely be single pivot because why the hell not.
Single pivots are a lot of fun! Give great feedback and are responsive, even if they aren't always the best under braking or the most plush. Kona does a great single pivot.
I might have missed an earlier post in this thread, but what is up with rockshox doing the kashima gold stanchions on their pro bikes recently? Has Fox lost its exclusivity for kashima on suspension or is RS just doing it because of the color?
I might have missed an earlier post in this thread, but what is up with rockshox doing the kashima gold stanchions on their pro bikes recently...
I might have missed an earlier post in this thread, but what is up with rockshox doing the kashima gold stanchions on their pro bikes recently? Has Fox lost its exclusivity for kashima on suspension or is RS just doing it because of the color?
It’s a nitrate. Did it long before fox. Fox doesn’t own kashima either
Single pivots are a lot of fun! Give great feedback and are responsive, even if they aren't always the best under braking or the most plush...
Single pivots are a lot of fun! Give great feedback and are responsive, even if they aren't always the best under braking or the most plush. Kona does a great single pivot.
D.E.L.T.A. For example is a very plush linkage driven single pivot, plenty playful as well
I might have missed an earlier post in this thread, but what is up with rockshox doing the kashima gold stanchions on their pro bikes recently...
I might have missed an earlier post in this thread, but what is up with rockshox doing the kashima gold stanchions on their pro bikes recently? Has Fox lost its exclusivity for kashima on suspension or is RS just doing it because of the color?
It’s a nitrate. Did it long before fox. Fox doesn’t own kashima either
Yeah, I thought they had the exclusive license to use kashima in mountain bike suspension. I didn't realize that they had done it before but reading a bit into it it wasn't a very durable coating?
No labels and zipped tied rear hose, can anyone name this frame? update, Just had a better look at home, rocker pivot says transition
No labels and zipped tied rear hose, can anyone name this frame?
update, Just had a better look at home, rocker pivot says transition
Those appear to be the as-yet-unreleased TRP levers, eh? With front brake on the right, UK style. Plus a Fox fork, RockShox rear shock, SRAM cranks and Shimano pedals... quite the combination of parts.
Seat tube looks more like one of a dedicated dh bike
Think that's just the angle. The current spire seatpost area doesn't look far off from that at all. Link, chainstays, shockmount/bb area all look pretty prototype while a lot of the rest of the frame looks pretty similar to the current frame.
Definitely Transitions hardware but others use the same and Transition makes it easy to order.
If the rumors of a upcoming sentinel release are true the spire/patrol I believe are the next models due an update. Not that transition needs to update them honestly. But what are they supposed to do just push the same bikes till someone invents something interesting again?
Think that's just the angle. The current spire seatpost area doesn't look far off from that at all. Link, chainstays, shockmount/bb area all look pretty prototype...
Think that's just the angle. The current spire seatpost area doesn't look far off from that at all. Link, chainstays, shockmount/bb area all look pretty prototype while a lot of the rest of the frame looks pretty similar to the current frame.
Definitely Transitions hardware but others use the same and Transition makes it easy to order.
If the rumors of a upcoming sentinel release are true the spire/patrol I believe are the next models due an update. Not that transition needs to update them honestly. But what are they supposed to do just push the same bikes till someone invents something interesting again?
Seat tube insertion looks super super short but yeah maybe it is the angle? Definitely transition though. The current sentinel looks like you could run a seat tube to damn near the bottom bracket, so unless the angle of this pic is doing all sorts of weird stuff I feel like it would be a big step backwards.
The word on the streets is frame storage for the new bikes so it's either only for carbon ones or its a new tr11.
The one thing that makes me think it isnt a tr11 is the tapered head tube. The tr11 now is a straight 56 56 and they use their own reach adjust headset. I doubt they would move away from that for a new downhill bike but for the spire a tapered head tube makes more sense than it does for a dh bike.
Also the current tr11 has the cable port in the front of the head tube. Judging by that pic it has cable ports on both sides of the frame. Possibly for dropper post routing also making me think new spire or possibly patrol. I cant tell if thats a 29 or 27.5 rear
Also the current tr11 has the cable port in the front of the head tube. Judging by that pic it has cable ports on both sides...
Also the current tr11 has the cable port in the front of the head tube. Judging by that pic it has cable ports on both sides of the frame. Possibly for dropper post routing also making me think new spire or possibly patrol. I cant tell if thats a 29 or 27.5 rear
Cable ports may be for those in countries who run their brakes on opposite sides without mangling the cable to make it fit the standard routing.
That has already happened. Scott and Transition went 4 bar to name two (there are others I can't remember right now) while YT and Canyon expanded...
That has already happened. Scott and Transition went 4 bar to name two (there are others I can't remember right now) while YT and Canyon expanded into the North American market after the patent ran out.
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by...
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by the evolution of my personal knowledge, but it seems to me that
- the consumers swayed by things like "VPP" have moved on to being swayed by electronic shifting and suspension gadgets and other similar things,
- more educated consumers are mainly looking at curves as they are now widely available and a good chunk of us have some idea what they mean,
- the layout/type of suspension is more a matter of bike nerdery than something that impacts an informed buying decision (other than maybe the stress the layout puts on the shock).
Am I way off base on this? Do people still care whether a frame is VPP or not?
I agree with this. Spent 4 years on DW link from Turner, Ripmo V1 and V2. Then 3 years on horst links from Transition, Norco, and Specialized. (with single pivot from a Nukeproof Giga thrown in there) I did instantly feel the "magic" of VPP pedaling my Santa around on pavement after I built it, but if say SC made the leverage curve much more linear like Spesh did with the SJ 15 I'm out. I scroll linkagedesign.blogspot.com in the same way I scroll Vital or the other site. Moderate interest in electronic shocks but very happy letting engineering and physics do the "thinking" atm. Shoutout to @CascadeComponents for making my Patrol an amazing park bike and saving my SJ Evo (WRP saved that one too).
No labels and zipped tied rear hose, can anyone name this frame? update, Just had a better look at home, rocker pivot says transition
No labels and zipped tied rear hose, can anyone name this frame?
update, Just had a better look at home, rocker pivot says transition
Hoping it's a 180mm freeride/park bike like I've bastardized my Patrol into! It being trunion maybe points to that? The current TR11 is not trunion and the consensus seems to be trunion is just for the packaging being able to fit a water bottle, I'm convinced 170/180mm rear dual crown bikes are the future for rental fleets those of us who don't race DH. Transition totally deserves to be contending with the alliteration of the Status 170 DH, Spindrift, Slayer, and Shore.
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by...
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by the evolution of my personal knowledge, but it seems to me that
- the consumers swayed by things like "VPP" have moved on to being swayed by electronic shifting and suspension gadgets and other similar things,
- more educated consumers are mainly looking at curves as they are now widely available and a good chunk of us have some idea what they mean,
- the layout/type of suspension is more a matter of bike nerdery than something that impacts an informed buying decision (other than maybe the stress the layout puts on the shock).
Am I way off base on this? Do people still care whether a frame is VPP or not?
I agree with this. Spent 4 years on DW link from Turner, Ripmo V1 and V2. Then 3 years on horst links from Transition, Norco, and...
I agree with this. Spent 4 years on DW link from Turner, Ripmo V1 and V2. Then 3 years on horst links from Transition, Norco, and Specialized. (with single pivot from a Nukeproof Giga thrown in there) I did instantly feel the "magic" of VPP pedaling my Santa around on pavement after I built it, but if say SC made the leverage curve much more linear like Spesh did with the SJ 15 I'm out. I scroll linkagedesign.blogspot.com in the same way I scroll Vital or the other site. Moderate interest in electronic shocks but very happy letting engineering and physics do the "thinking" atm. Shoutout to @CascadeComponents for making my Patrol an amazing park bike and saving my SJ Evo (WRP saved that one too).
VPP magic pedalling it around? V2 Hightowers I see in my riding group all bob like crazy and everybody switches the shock platform on when it's time to go up. Or did you mean something else by magic?
Regarding the Transition (if it looks like a duck...), the seattube is hella bent and low insertion length, unlike what the Sentinel has:
Yeah, I thought they had the exclusive license to use kashima in mountain bike suspension. I didn't realize that they had done it before but reading...
Yeah, I thought they had the exclusive license to use kashima in mountain bike suspension. I didn't realize that they had done it before but reading a bit into it it wasn't a very durable coating?
Kashima incorporates tungsten disulfide as a lubrication agent, which keeps its lubricity at high loads. Many high end chain waxes now contain tungsten disulfide because it has good lubrication properties and ia durable. Pro teams on the road tour use this to save watts and during covid used to save chains, as less friction is less wear.
As primoz said, both new Bronson and Hightower use a standard eyelet 230mm E2E shock but with a very wide 40x8mm front mounting bushing setup.
If you had a Fox, you’d still be using the same tire and the same countershox device, so your front end would still have a 500g countershox + 1500g tire. So the Dorado ain’t the problem!
Ontopic: what’s happening with the new Gambler, any news about it?
Rumor is the new gambler doesn't ride as expected. Apparently they didn't make an alloy test mule. So the bike for sale is delayed so Scott can tweak it a bit.
On the suspension acronym/patent issue, curious for thoughts of people on the front lines of the industry dealing with customers. My perception may be clouded by the evolution of my personal knowledge, but it seems to me that
- the consumers swayed by things like "VPP" have moved on to being swayed by electronic shifting and suspension gadgets and other similar things,
- more educated consumers are mainly looking at curves as they are now widely available and a good chunk of us have some idea what they mean,
- the layout/type of suspension is more a matter of bike nerdery than something that impacts an informed buying decision (other than maybe the stress the layout puts on the shock).
Am I way off base on this? Do people still care whether a frame is VPP or not?
Honestly don't care much what suspension layout is on my bike. Right now it happens to be VPP but I've been able to make any bike I've had in the last 7 or so years feel good and they've all been different. I have to say VPP took the least amount of tinkering to make it feel right but that's just to my own preferences, next bike will likely be single pivot because why the hell not.
It already is, but I don't think it's because it's an objectively better system, it's just easier to tune, predictable, and cheaper to manufacture. At the same time, it's easy for a 4 bar bike to be incredibly mediocre. Non offensive, like oatmeal, but not super exciting. I think that Norco makes a great 4 bar bike, I've really enjoyed my sight, but canyons I've had the chance to ride have never been very special to me.
Single pivots are a lot of fun! Give great feedback and are responsive, even if they aren't always the best under braking or the most plush. Kona does a great single pivot.
I might have missed an earlier post in this thread, but what is up with rockshox doing the kashima gold stanchions on their pro bikes recently? Has Fox lost its exclusivity for kashima on suspension or is RS just doing it because of the color?
It’s a nitrate. Did it long before fox. Fox doesn’t own kashima either
D.E.L.T.A. For example is a very plush linkage driven single pivot, plenty playful as well
No labels and zipped tied rear hose, can anyone name this frame?
update, Just had a better look at home, rocker pivot says transition
transition?
ANVL cockpit, I would also go for Transition
Hardware looks like Transition's
Yeah, I thought they had the exclusive license to use kashima in mountain bike suspension. I didn't realize that they had done it before but reading a bit into it it wasn't a very durable coating?
Might be a new Tansition Spire. Looks a lot like the current one, and you could run a dual crown on it.
Seat tube looks more like one of a dedicated dh bike
Those appear to be the as-yet-unreleased TRP levers, eh? With front brake on the right, UK style. Plus a Fox fork, RockShox rear shock, SRAM cranks and Shimano pedals... quite the combination of parts.
Think that's just the angle. The current spire seatpost area doesn't look far off from that at all. Link, chainstays, shockmount/bb area all look pretty prototype while a lot of the rest of the frame looks pretty similar to the current frame.
Definitely Transitions hardware but others use the same and Transition makes it easy to order.
If the rumors of a upcoming sentinel release are true the spire/patrol I believe are the next models due an update. Not that transition needs to update them honestly. But what are they supposed to do just push the same bikes till someone invents something interesting again?
Spotted this in the wild. Any ideas? New super deluxe ultimate?
Seat tube insertion looks super super short but yeah maybe it is the angle? Definitely transition though. The current sentinel looks like you could run a seat tube to damn near the bottom bracket, so unless the angle of this pic is doing all sorts of weird stuff I feel like it would be a big step backwards.
The word on the streets is frame storage for the new bikes so it's either only for carbon ones or its a new tr11.
At least they are getting rid of the "loam pool"
The one thing that makes me think it isnt a tr11 is the tapered head tube. The tr11 now is a straight 56 56 and they use their own reach adjust headset. I doubt they would move away from that for a new downhill bike but for the spire a tapered head tube makes more sense than it does for a dh bike.
Also the current tr11 has the cable port in the front of the head tube. Judging by that pic it has cable ports on both sides of the frame. Possibly for dropper post routing also making me think new spire or possibly patrol. I cant tell if thats a 29 or 27.5 rear
Wonder if those dropouts will come in different lengths...?
Cable ports may be for those in countries who run their brakes on opposite sides without mangling the cable to make it fit the standard routing.
I agree with this. Spent 4 years on DW link from Turner, Ripmo V1 and V2. Then 3 years on horst links from Transition, Norco, and Specialized. (with single pivot from a Nukeproof Giga thrown in there) I did instantly feel the "magic" of VPP pedaling my Santa around on pavement after I built it, but if say SC made the leverage curve much more linear like Spesh did with the SJ 15 I'm out. I scroll linkagedesign.blogspot.com in the same way I scroll Vital or the other site. Moderate interest in electronic shocks but very happy letting engineering and physics do the "thinking" atm. Shoutout to @CascadeComponents for making my Patrol an amazing park bike and saving my SJ Evo (WRP saved that one too).
Hoping it's a 180mm freeride/park bike like I've bastardized my Patrol into! It being trunion maybe points to that? The current TR11 is not trunion and the consensus seems to be trunion is just for the packaging being able to fit a water bottle, I'm convinced 170/180mm rear dual crown bikes are the future for rental fleets those of us who don't race DH. Transition totally deserves to be contending with the alliteration of the Status 170 DH, Spindrift, Slayer, and Shore.
VPP magic pedalling it around? V2 Hightowers I see in my riding group all bob like crazy and everybody switches the shock platform on when it's time to go up. Or did you mean something else by magic?
Regarding the Transition (if it looks like a duck...), the seattube is hella bent and low insertion length, unlike what the Sentinel has:
Kashima incorporates tungsten disulfide as a lubrication agent, which keeps its lubricity at high loads. Many high end chain waxes now contain tungsten disulfide because it has good lubrication properties and ia durable. Pro teams on the road tour use this to save watts and during covid used to save chains, as less friction is less wear.
Molybdenum disulfide.