The Lyrik I got recently has the knurled screws instead of the buttons that my 2 Zebs from last year had. When I did some research, I found some YouTube video saying that it was a running change that supposedly was better at minimizing the amount of oil that can burp out during the process. I haven't gone up to any high elevations with the new style valves to try it yet, but the old push button ones did burp out a noticeable of oil.
Already seen these out in the wild on some current Zebs and a 38mm Boxxer. Definitely to get around whoever holds the patent. It's a knurled...
Already seen these out in the wild on some current Zebs and a 38mm Boxxer. Definitely to get around whoever holds the patent. It's a knurled thumbscrew with a 4mm hex hole that simply goes into the same threads. Crack it a turn or so and you can hear it equalise.
Looks like the bleeder valves changed to skirt the fox lawsuit. Looking like a rotational knob versus depressing the valve on current models?
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first...
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring in 2013 was the first fork I remember seeing them on with a button-style valve. It's still crazy that they can sue for something like that. Luckily, the new twist to open valves seem to work a lot faster and not leak oil over time.
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first...
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
You can blame the patent system for that.
Specialized bought the Horst Link in the US, called it FSR and locked down tight for years. Nothing they actually did themselves but have a canny ability to spend money well. Shame they weren’t so wise ordering bikes.
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first...
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring...
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring in 2013 was the first fork I remember seeing them on with a button-style valve. It's still crazy that they can sue for something like that. Luckily, the new twist to open valves seem to work a lot faster and not leak oil over time.
Wonder if the twist bleeders will be backwards compatible? Even though they're a play to get around the Fox patent, I like the simplicity and no oil burping.
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first...
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring...
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring in 2013 was the first fork I remember seeing them on with a button-style valve. It's still crazy that they can sue for something like that. Luckily, the new twist to open valves seem to work a lot faster and not leak oil over time.
Wonder if the twist bleeders will be backwards compatible? Even though they're a play to get around the Fox patent, I like the simplicity and no...
Wonder if the twist bleeders will be backwards compatible? Even though they're a play to get around the Fox patent, I like the simplicity and no oil burping.
Oil can still come out of the twist bleeders, very little but I’ve found it’s more depending on how you transport the bike and then hit the bleeders, vertical bike rack, upside down vs horizontal rack
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment is needed and clearly beneficial. Should this type of stuff be regulated. Something a little weird about using electronic stuff in dh racing.
The Lyrik I got recently has the knurled screws instead of the buttons that my 2 Zebs from last year had. When I did some research...
The Lyrik I got recently has the knurled screws instead of the buttons that my 2 Zebs from last year had. When I did some research, I found some YouTube video saying that it was a running change that supposedly was better at minimizing the amount of oil that can burp out during the process. I haven't gone up to any high elevations with the new style valves to try it yet, but the old push button ones did burp out a noticeable of oil.
"Minimising oil loss" sounds a lot better than "changed it because they will sue our asses off".
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment...
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment is needed and clearly beneficial. Should this type of stuff be regulated. Something a little weird about using electronic stuff in dh racing.
Why would a track with very different characters in different parts of it be mediocre?
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first...
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
Rockshox can sue you for putting sag markings on your stanchions. It goes both ways.
At the release of the latest drivetrain, TRP reps mentioned how many patents for the derailleur they had to get around to design theirs. Was it somewhere in the 150-200 range?
Patents are a good/bad thing depending on perspective eh. It sure does turn into a gong-show sometimes though.
Drivetrain have tons of patent from shimano and sram that make new player have a hard time circulating around not just for the derailleur and clutch but also cassette (shift ramp and such) and shifter.
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment...
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment is needed and clearly beneficial. Should this type of stuff be regulated. Something a little weird about using electronic stuff in dh racing.
Of it is just an electronic lockout actuated by the rider i dont see any problem lockout systems are nothing new.
but everything else like an automatic lockout or maybe even an GPS activated lockout is to much in my opinion.
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment...
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment is needed and clearly beneficial. Should this type of stuff be regulated. Something a little weird about using electronic stuff in dh racing.
Why would a track with very different characters in different parts of it be mediocre?
I find high-speed tracks less interesting to watch. Just my opinion. It's harder to notice the details that set the best runs apart. I like watching weird turns, off-camber lines, sloppy carnage and maximum creativity. I'm fine with one track like Ft. Bill per year, variety is good. I just hope they keep it weird for a bunch of other races.
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be on the top technology by their sponsors. But I just think the correlation is the other way around- 4 of the top 5 riders were on electronic suspension because they are the top riders, its not making them meaningfully faster.
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be...
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be on the top technology by their sponsors. But I just think the correlation is the other way around- 4 of the top 5 riders were on electronic suspension because they are the top riders, its not making them meaningfully faster.
And don't forget the placebo effect. If you take 4 out of the top 10 riders and give them Mike's Secret Stuff they're gonna go out and destroy the Monstars... I mean, do well in the race.
Not saying the electronics didn't work at Fort William, just trying to stay realistic with a sample size of only n=6. I think this is Loic's fourth season* on Mike's Secret Stuff... I mean electronic suspension, and I don't think his win rate is so different from 2016-2020 vs. 2020-2024.
*I think his first race on the Ohlin's handlebar lockout was Lousa 2020 at the end of the season. He won day one, Greg won day two
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be...
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be on the top technology by their sponsors. But I just think the correlation is the other way around- 4 of the top 5 riders were on electronic suspension because they are the top riders, its not making them meaningfully faster.
And don't forget the placebo effect. If you take 4 out of the top 10 riders and give them Mike's Secret Stuff they're gonna go out...
And don't forget the placebo effect. If you take 4 out of the top 10 riders and give them Mike's Secret Stuff they're gonna go out and destroy the Monstars... I mean, do well in the race.
Not saying the electronics didn't work at Fort William, just trying to stay realistic with a sample size of only n=6. I think this is Loic's fourth season* on Mike's Secret Stuff... I mean electronic suspension, and I don't think his win rate is so different from 2016-2020 vs. 2020-2024.
*I think his first race on the Ohlin's handlebar lockout was Lousa 2020 at the end of the season. He won day one, Greg won day two
Chris Hall on the Downtime called it "electrickery" which I thought was an awesome term for it...
Loic has at least 3 modes. It’s not as simple as a lock out.
Black box dh seems to be able to electronically control low speed...
Loic has at least 3 modes. It’s not as simple as a lock out.
Black box dh seems to be able to electronically control low speed compression with a motor. Potentially high speed compression too.
In a race where 1.5-3 seconds over a 3-4 minute course is the difference between first and third and third and seventh this is a huge advantage.
Loic won the race in sector 2 where he somehow gained 2 seconds over most people.
All this talk about flat courses and hard tails, if you actually look at the sector times you'd realise that the electric bikes actually didn't even win the flat sections.
Benoit Coulange was fastest in both split 4 and 5, Loic was 3rd and 10th.
I more meant that they need to implement the technology for such marginal gains. The times are so tight as a lot of tracks are pretty one line and straight.
The debating and hypothesizing is pretty interesting, id only caution of broad statements of "fact" when in reality we dont actually "know" anything other than what we have seen and been told.
we dont know that Loic has anything going on, other than a couple buttons, and some blinky lights. Could all be snake oil, or placebo buttons, or could be enough computing power to run a space program. As noted by @SteveClimber there might not be much correlation between the flatter sections, and the ability to lock out suspension. Or maybe Loic didnt lock it out, or maybe it didnt work, or.....?
Same with the RS stuff, we only "know" what we have been told, the rest is rumour. I have heard good things about the FA on some trail/enduro bikes, but I havent tried it personally.
it is all very fascinating, and the level of R&D, and investment made by some teams appears to be pretty substantial
With all this 6 bar nonsense, testing cromo chainstays, electronic compression, etc I want someone to (re)try the V2 Magic Link.
V1 was a flexy prototype, V3 only used a single shock, so I think V2 was the sweet spot (its a shame I cracked two of them back in the day).
Yes, it pedaled better, but thats not its most interesting characteristic. You would set up your suspension rather stiff, with the compression higher than normal, allowing it to be rather firm when pumping. When you hit rough stuff, the rearward forces on the frame increased the leverage ratio on the shock, effectively reducing your low/high speed compression in reaction to a square edged hit. The same for braking; despite lacking a Horst link, the rear suspension would become more supple under heavy braking, as well as squatting into its travel. Then of course when pedaling or just coasting on smoother terrain the leverage ratio drops and the rear stiffens up, with no buttons or switches at all.
TLDR: the magic link was mechanically reactive to terrain, braking, and pedaling, no electronics or remotes necessary. De Facto adjusted low/high speed compression too.
Loic won the race in sector 2 where he somehow gained 2 seconds over most people.
All this talk about flat courses and hard tails, if...
Loic won the race in sector 2 where he somehow gained 2 seconds over most people.
All this talk about flat courses and hard tails, if you actually look at the sector times you'd realise that the electric bikes actually didn't even win the flat sections.
Benoit Coulange was fastest in both split 4 and 5, Loic was 3rd and 10th.
Anyone done a chainless race down a forest road that doesn't require much braking? My crew does a ride where a no-pedal gravel road race back to the car is tradition. At 200 I beat 160 pound friends who are on faster tires. So really, it's not a race, it's a scale.
In the men's race, these are some of the taller/bigger riders we have had in the series. Brosnan winning here in 2014 is impressive.
Benoit is a bigger dude, he's got an advantage on any higher speed section that doesn't require much braking.
Rather than wearing skin-tight kit, they'd be better off stuffing 10 lbs of lead in their bottom brackets. Maes was onto something riding an e-bike, lol.
I find high-speed tracks less interesting to watch. Just my opinion. It's harder to notice the details that set the best runs apart. I like watching...
I find high-speed tracks less interesting to watch. Just my opinion. It's harder to notice the details that set the best runs apart. I like watching weird turns, off-camber lines, sloppy carnage and maximum creativity. I'm fine with one track like Ft. Bill per year, variety is good. I just hope they keep it weird for a bunch of other races.
Poland track seems quite smooth and flat, but time will tell.
The Lyrik I got recently has the knurled screws instead of the buttons that my 2 Zebs from last year had. When I did some research, I found some YouTube video saying that it was a running change that supposedly was better at minimizing the amount of oil that can burp out during the process. I haven't gone up to any high elevations with the new style valves to try it yet, but the old push button ones did burp out a noticeable of oil.
Here they are on my new Range:
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring in 2013 was the first fork I remember seeing them on with a button-style valve. It's still crazy that they can sue for something like that. Luckily, the new twist to open valves seem to work a lot faster and not leak oil over time.
You can blame the patent system for that.
Specialized bought the Horst Link in the US, called it FSR and locked down tight for years. Nothing they actually did themselves but have a canny ability to spend money well. Shame they weren’t so wise ordering bikes.
Wonder if the twist bleeders will be backwards compatible? Even though they're a play to get around the Fox patent, I like the simplicity and no oil burping.
Oil can still come out of the twist bleeders, very little but I’ve found it’s more depending on how you transport the bike and then hit the bleeders, vertical bike rack, upside down vs horizontal rack
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment is needed and clearly beneficial. Should this type of stuff be regulated. Something a little weird about using electronic stuff in dh racing.
"Minimising oil loss" sounds a lot better than "changed it because they will sue our asses off".
Sounds like spin to me.
Why would a track with very different characters in different parts of it be mediocre?
Rockshox can sue you for putting sag markings on your stanchions. It goes both ways.
At the release of the latest drivetrain, TRP reps mentioned how many patents for the derailleur they had to get around to design theirs. Was it somewhere in the 150-200 range?
Patents are a good/bad thing depending on perspective eh. It sure does turn into a gong-show sometimes though.
Drivetrain have tons of patent from shimano and sram that make new player have a hard time circulating around not just for the derailleur and clutch but also cassette (shift ramp and such) and shifter.
Of it is just an electronic lockout actuated by the rider i dont see any problem lockout systems are nothing new.
but everything else like an automatic lockout or maybe even an GPS activated lockout is to much in my opinion.
Mediocre as in the need to turn a dh bike into a hardtail because it's so flat.
Fort William is flat? Wonder why they aren’t using trail bikes instead.
I find high-speed tracks less interesting to watch. Just my opinion. It's harder to notice the details that set the best runs apart. I like watching weird turns, off-camber lines, sloppy carnage and maximum creativity. I'm fine with one track like Ft. Bill per year, variety is good. I just hope they keep it weird for a bunch of other races.
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be on the top technology by their sponsors. But I just think the correlation is the other way around- 4 of the top 5 riders were on electronic suspension because they are the top riders, its not making them meaningfully faster.
And don't forget the placebo effect. If you take 4 out of the top 10 riders and give them Mike's Secret Stuff they're gonna go out and destroy the Monstars... I mean, do well in the race.
Not saying the electronics didn't work at Fort William, just trying to stay realistic with a sample size of only n=6. I think this is Loic's fourth season* on Mike's Secret Stuff... I mean electronic suspension, and I don't think his win rate is so different from 2016-2020 vs. 2020-2024.
*I think his first race on the Ohlin's handlebar lockout was Lousa 2020 at the end of the season. He won day one, Greg won day two
Loic has at least 3 modes. It’s not as simple as a lock out.
Black box dh seems to be able to electronically control low speed compression with a motor. Potentially high speed compression too.
In a race where 1.5-3 seconds over a 3-4 minute course is the difference between first and third and third and seventh this is a huge advantage.
Chris Hall on the Downtime called it "electrickery" which I thought was an awesome term for it...
Loic won the race in sector 2 where he somehow gained 2 seconds over most people.
All this talk about flat courses and hard tails, if you actually look at the sector times you'd realise that the electric bikes actually didn't even win the flat sections.
Benoit Coulange was fastest in both split 4 and 5, Loic was 3rd and 10th.
I more meant that they need to implement the technology for such marginal gains. The times are so tight as a lot of tracks are pretty one line and straight.
The debating and hypothesizing is pretty interesting, id only caution of broad statements of "fact" when in reality we dont actually "know" anything other than what we have seen and been told.
we dont know that Loic has anything going on, other than a couple buttons, and some blinky lights. Could all be snake oil, or placebo buttons, or could be enough computing power to run a space program. As noted by @SteveClimber there might not be much correlation between the flatter sections, and the ability to lock out suspension. Or maybe Loic didnt lock it out, or maybe it didnt work, or.....?
Same with the RS stuff, we only "know" what we have been told, the rest is rumour. I have heard good things about the FA on some trail/enduro bikes, but I havent tried it personally.
it is all very fascinating, and the level of R&D, and investment made by some teams appears to be pretty substantial
With all this 6 bar nonsense, testing cromo chainstays, electronic compression, etc I want someone to (re)try the V2 Magic Link.
V1 was a flexy prototype, V3 only used a single shock, so I think V2 was the sweet spot (its a shame I cracked two of them back in the day).
Yes, it pedaled better, but thats not its most interesting characteristic. You would set up your suspension rather stiff, with the compression higher than normal, allowing it to be rather firm when pumping. When you hit rough stuff, the rearward forces on the frame increased the leverage ratio on the shock, effectively reducing your low/high speed compression in reaction to a square edged hit. The same for braking; despite lacking a Horst link, the rear suspension would become more supple under heavy braking, as well as squatting into its travel. Then of course when pedaling or just coasting on smoother terrain the leverage ratio drops and the rear stiffens up, with no buttons or switches at all.
TLDR: the magic link was mechanically reactive to terrain, braking, and pedaling, no electronics or remotes necessary. De Facto adjusted low/high speed compression too.
Anyone done a chainless race down a forest road that doesn't require much braking? My crew does a ride where a no-pedal gravel road race back to the car is tradition. At 200 I beat 160 pound friends who are on faster tires. So really, it's not a race, it's a scale.
Here's the past winners of Fort William WCDH: https://www.rootsandrain.com/venue13/fort-william/events/filters/dh/ser…
In the men's race, these are some of the taller/bigger riders we have had in the series. Brosnan winning here in 2014 is impressive.
Benoit is a bigger dude, he's got an advantage on any higher speed section that doesn't require much braking.
Rather than wearing skin-tight kit, they'd be better off stuffing 10 lbs of lead in their bottom brackets. Maes was onto something riding an e-bike, lol.
Poland track seems quite smooth and flat, but time will tell.
anyone have any more info on the track?
Lol, that's what everyone said about Loudenvielle; "It looks like a blue flow trail!"...
I know, I’m probably just a hater, but has there been testing on the track yet?
Seems like it’s…….Polished.
Wocka Wocka