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interesting brake test, still cannot understand how the "battle" for the best brake was between the Dominions and the mavens and not between trickstuffs and hopes, hopes do everything better than the mavens, stop you quicker, better lever feel, easier to bleed, cheaper to buy, way better looking, even lighter, don't really know, regardless, interesting test backed up by dyno data
shame they didn't include saints
Its clear the Hopes are the winner on power and deceleration times. Trickstuff's where the best in some of the tests but for their price I was expecting them to be significantly more powerful. Having gotten my greasy fingers on all the brakes in test except the Trickstuffs, nothing comes close to the Hopes for build quality and the complete lack of play/slop in the lever.
It seems like they have based the results on lever feel and ergonomics which unlike power are quite subjective. I have two sets of Tech 4 V4's and love them but the softer lever feel certainly took some getting too. Some friends have tried them and liked them others didn't. They also seem to have been deducted points due to running on DOT fluid instead of the completely safe and lickable mineral oil.
Overall a good test and having dyno numbers to reference back too is a great resource.
for how old the current saint models are now that may have been considered elder abuse
and given how they excluded those, an update might be already in the review process (hopefully)
i'm certainly curious as to how the various metrics were factored and weighted in the final assessment.
one feature only the dominion's have is the alignment set screws on the calipers ("crosshair"). for how long these brakes have been on the market i'm astonished that nobody has copied it yet.
I love Enduro MTB's tests. Having real data to their opinions is always helpful. However, the always do something odd in the testing that kind of makes me wonder why they did what they did.
For instance, on their chart showing brake performance they decided to use sinter/metallic pads for all the brakes except for the Mavens and TRP. The fact that the Mavens were as powerful as they were with organic pads leads me to believe that they actually might be the strongest brake out there on the market currently. Not to derail this thread on another brake discussion, but figured I'd point it out.
Personally, I think the current troy is one of the most underrated bikes out there right now. Devinci is one of the brands I worry anyone the current industry climate, just because they seem to have a fairly limited reach.
I would love a modern big hit, something fully dedicated to riding like an idiot on trails vs. being a dedicated park bike. The OG Bighit comp is one of the bikes that got away, for me.
I've had almost all of them with ride time and the Trickstuff has a lot of similarities with Hope, the quality is just slightly more refined and better, but not by much. They also ditch DOT, which I know some people care more about than others, although it's a big issue in the US where Bionol is nearly impossible to find. I tripped over my bottle and nearly lost half of it, which made for a rough moment and a few bad words. I also feel at the price point they should include bleed tools, Intend does and IMO there is no reason you should pay that much for a boutique brand of brakes that uses a hard to find fluid and bleed kit and it not be included.
I prefer the Hope clamp mechanism, the Maxima clamp is really secure but kindof fiddly. Trickstuff offers more detailed instructions on how to use their braided hoses, Hope sells the kit but 0 instructions on how to install it. The Trickstuff brakes are a little more intuitive feeling at first, but it's really marginal. The Hope adjusters are easier to use and don't get in the way, the Trickstuff reach adjuster can kindof get in the way of grips or controls at times. The Hope lever body sits pretty far in on the bar, which might irritate some and make for a slightly messier cockpit. The Maximas allow for easier hose alignment, whereas Hope it's real easy to end up with a twisted hose during install. It's all nitpicky and they are both great, but it's hard to justify the Maximas at the price point, regardless of how good they are, they are only marginally better than the T4 V4s IMO.
IMO where these won't work for some is riders who want a more defined bite point when the pads engage. Both of these you can keep pulling right on past the engagement point and it'll feel less force is required to reach power than most other brakes, it's not super intuitive. You have to learn to feel the brakes instead of the lever, if that makes sense. I got used to it, but found that brakes with a more defined bite point worked better for me (Dominions, Intend, Maven, etc), I think riders moving from SRAM or Shimano will have an easier time adjusting to Dominions than they would Hope or Trickstuff due to this. That's not a knock on them, just that you have to spend some time adjusting to the lever feel and some won't want to do that.
"nothing" is a stretch, but my eyes might be calibrated differently. Should be a great tire, regardless.
Metallic pads aren't inherently more powerful than organic pads and quite often its the opposite. Metallic pads might work better in the wet and are more durable but organic pads like Galfer greens, Sinter greens and Trickstuff power+ are more powerful. Especially in lab conditions.
You must not have an external reservoir on your shock.
Mine's the 27.5 medium, but it's the same issue on the 29er from what I saw in store.
I can barely get a 450ml Fidlock in.
Both were carbon frames and had the piggy back. Could have had more clearance?
Side knobs totally different. Center pattern is different. Sure both have “ramped” knobs for less rolling resistance but ultimately they are going to ride quite different. In a world where treads are often directly copied I wouldn’t say this is an offender.
Appreciate your take. I have two sets of V4 brakes and your nitpick points 100% align with my experience. Considering the Intends for the next build, just because. Now back to the rumors!
Huh? Did you even look at the lab test?
Trickstuff Sinter Green beat Power +
XTR, Hayes, Hope, Cura 4, MT7 - the metallic pads all performed better in the lab than organic pads.
I'd say you've got it backwards, because of the heat involved in this lab test, metallic pads will perform better. In the real world where developing brake temperature can be an issue on certain trails organics can have an edge. But in a lab setting it's metallic pads all day.
The lab results are strange to me as I've been using Maven's since they came out and can say without a doubt (for me) they are the most powerful brakes I have tried and I tried most of them (e4,v4,saint,Maxima,cura4,mt7...).
Also,when set up correctly they are just rock solid.Most other brakes I've used were not consistent at all and needed too much attention (Saint not included).I have always liked Sram's ergonomics and it's one of the only brakes with a contact adjustment that actually works.
Only thing that remains to be seen is the durability over a longer period...
*My bike is a 54lbs ebike
I think there is a difference between maximum, overall power a brake puts in and when that power comes on. Most riders will likely never experience or leverage a brakes full power. Using a theoretical example, if you have a lever that takes 8 inches of lever pull to get max power, that power is going to be less realized by most than a lever that takes 3 inches of stroke to reach max power. Meanwhile, some may require more force at the lever to put power down, others less. This is why some brakes may dyno really powerful, but not feel it at the lever.
The Mavens feel more powerful because that power comes on at an earlier phase in the lever stroke and much faster. The Maximas can put the same power down, but it comes on more linearly and requires more lever stroke to obtain. The T4 V4s are kinda in between. It takes more lever pull to obtain the same power, albeit with less force required at the lever. This may be why the Maximas measured higher by Enduro, they were measuring at a constant force, I'd venture if you took force out and instead focused on lever distance, the Mavens would have dynoed higher than others.
I don't have objective measurements obviously, but based on feel, the Mavens put more power down faster than these others do. That power may not max out as high, but you reach it sooner and that's why I think you feel they have more power. I would agree that having had most of these, they feel more powerful, but max power and power from lever feel are two different things.
IMO they did a great job with the feel of the brakes, but the form factor leaves a lot to be desired, both aesthetically and functionally.
The Sinter Pads are actually organic but from the company named sinter whose lab they used.
The pads are simply not available for the Mavens and the TRP... at least that's what the test says.
Ugh kinda looks like another e bike
one way they could improve their test methodology is by isolating more variables; use a consistent brake pad compound and rotor. Maybe something from galfer (just an example) since not all the calipers can fit identical pads, but the same pad compound on the same rotor would keep that aspect of the test consistent. same hub too. (note - this would be for the lab portion of the test done in a fixture).
What's the point of that? We're not after a caliper test, the pads and rotors that come with it is much relevant as most people buy brakes as a system first.
I do think a rotor test with 1-2 calipers would be good. And potentially a pad test.
But they were doing a brake test, we buy brakes as a system
reading comprehension fail. they used organic pads, from slovenian aftermaket company named SINTER. maven pads were probably not available yet because unique new size
just by touching the lever on hopes it feels quite square and sharp my only concern, and i'll close the offtopic here
Huh? did you even read any of the articles?
The Sinter green pads are organic, just like the hope green pads which where the two best performing pads on test. I only brought up the trickstuff power+ pads as they where the recommended pad upgrade in the 2018 test but I am quite surprised to see them do so poorly in comparison this year.
It sounds like the organic brake pads used on the Maven where the pads that they came with as this is the non limited edition ultimates. Blame Sram for creating a new pad design for no performance benefit.
No performance benefit on 1 lab test conducted by 1 magaznie.
In real world the Maven's are just super powerful.One "proof" that comes to mind is number of reviewers stating you can "rotor down" on them,which I think is a good indication for their power.It's not something I remember seeing in most brake reviews.
Re: bionol, I just use putoline hpx instead. Seems to do the business.
Maxima bite point should feel super defined, otherwise it's not bled correctly. But yah, beyond bite they don't feel as defined as a dominion for example.
Does anyone else think a graph of lever force vs brake torque generated would've been nice to know?
Is there a brake forum? This is a weekly occurrence at this point.