MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Onawalk
Posts
344
Joined
7/5/2021
Location
CA
9/13/2023 10:10pm
mtbman99 wrote:
I have not ridden a high pivot bike personally but several of my buddies who spent a few seasons on them have switched back to a...

I have not ridden a high pivot bike personally but several of my buddies who spent a few seasons on them have switched back to a more “conventional” suspension layout. The bit of extra maintenance with the idler and the less efficient climbing were the main factors.
 

Also jumping up in travel with little downsides on current gen bikes didn’t hurt either. 

Im not entirely sure what is meant by "traditional" design.  Are you trying they have moved away from a HP/idler bike to a different suspension platform?

The HP/idler comes in different flavours

Primoz
Posts
4539
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
9/13/2023 10:34pm
Primoz wrote:

No.

Onawalk wrote:
Have you ridden an HP short travel bike? do you ride the sort of terrain that they might excel on regularly? I remember a couple months...

Have you ridden an HP short travel bike?

do you ride the sort of terrain that they might excel on regularly?

I remember a couple months ago you were partially predicting a step back from HP bikes, and since then there has been a couple of notable releases.  Not sure I understand your reluctance to them. 

Have not ridden one at all (sadly - test bikes in Slovenia are hard to come by, even harder in XL).

Pretty sure we have the terrain where a HP bike would work quite nicely.

Development/release cycles lag behind the actual state on the market. As for a few notable release, which categories? I'll gladly eat my hat if everything goes high pivot in a few years (wouldn't be the first hat, it would quite likely be a tasty one), but considering how many DH bikes were tested with a high pivot and have reverted to a classic layout... I just don't see it. As with HP and shorter travel bikes, the main reservation I have with is the added efficiency losses and overall complexity which I suspect could drive people away.

One way I could see more proliferation in HP bikes would be the DW system, but sadly that one is patented and I doubt will see much use in the world until the patent runs out.

1
9/14/2023 12:23am

My god stop posting u less it’s a tech rumor

24
9/14/2023 12:26am
Primoz wrote:

No.

Onawalk wrote:
Have you ridden an HP short travel bike? do you ride the sort of terrain that they might excel on regularly? I remember a couple months...

Have you ridden an HP short travel bike?

do you ride the sort of terrain that they might excel on regularly?

I remember a couple months ago you were partially predicting a step back from HP bikes, and since then there has been a couple of notable releases.  Not sure I understand your reluctance to them. 

Primoz wrote:
Have not ridden one at all (sadly - test bikes in Slovenia are hard to come by, even harder in XL). Pretty sure we have the...

Have not ridden one at all (sadly - test bikes in Slovenia are hard to come by, even harder in XL).

Pretty sure we have the terrain where a HP bike would work quite nicely.

Development/release cycles lag behind the actual state on the market. As for a few notable release, which categories? I'll gladly eat my hat if everything goes high pivot in a few years (wouldn't be the first hat, it would quite likely be a tasty one), but considering how many DH bikes were tested with a high pivot and have reverted to a classic layout... I just don't see it. As with HP and shorter travel bikes, the main reservation I have with is the added efficiency losses and overall complexity which I suspect could drive people away.

One way I could see more proliferation in HP bikes would be the DW system, but sadly that one is patented and I doubt will see much use in the world until the patent runs out.

You should test ride a Druid V2. Efficiency losses are well compensated with the technical climbing ability. The bike is just less slowed down compared to a horst link while pedaling flat rooty/rocky paths. And I don't even feel the efficiency losses tbh since there is no need for a lower guide. Complexity is not that high either with a bombproof idler system. 

2
7
mamath7
Posts
101
Joined
6/17/2014
Location
FR
9/14/2023 1:23am

Can we get back to the topic?

16
kcy4130
Posts
319
Joined
7/14/2021
Location
MT US
9/14/2023 5:17am
New optic. Heard from my LBS that it and the incoming sight are HP. 

New optic. Heard from my LBS that it and the incoming sight are HP. IMG 4468

Modular lower shock mount. I wonder if it's only to adjust kinematics or if they're trying to use same front triangle for both optic and sight, w/ different shock mount and longer stroke shock? If combined with head angle adjustability the drawbacks for doing it this way lessened, but still not ideal. Seems big and clunky for just a kinematics adjuster. Or maybe it's for converting between mullet and 29?

2
9/14/2023 5:20am
New optic. Heard from my LBS that it and the incoming sight are HP. 

New optic. Heard from my LBS that it and the incoming sight are HP. IMG 4468

kcy4130 wrote:
Modular lower shock mount. I wonder if it's only to adjust kinematics or if they're trying to use same front triangle for both optic and sight...

Modular lower shock mount. I wonder if it's only to adjust kinematics or if they're trying to use same front triangle for both optic and sight, w/ different shock mount and longer stroke shock? If combined with head angle adjustability the drawbacks for doing it this way lessened, but still not ideal. Seems big and clunky for just a kinematics adjuster. Or maybe it's for converting between mullet and 29?

The latter sounds the most likely

2
Ginger_SPICE
Posts
22
Joined
7/14/2021
Location
Fletcher, NC US
9/14/2023 5:59am Edited Date/Time 9/14/2023 6:05am
New optic. Heard from my LBS that it and the incoming sight are HP. 

New optic. Heard from my LBS that it and the incoming sight are HP. IMG 4468

kcy4130 wrote:
Modular lower shock mount. I wonder if it's only to adjust kinematics or if they're trying to use same front triangle for both optic and sight...

Modular lower shock mount. I wonder if it's only to adjust kinematics or if they're trying to use same front triangle for both optic and sight, w/ different shock mount and longer stroke shock? If combined with head angle adjustability the drawbacks for doing it this way lessened, but still not ideal. Seems big and clunky for just a kinematics adjuster. Or maybe it's for converting between mullet and 29?

A little birdie told me the new Optic will be offered in full 29" or mixed wheel. After seeing Trek's design for switching between mixed wheel and 29" I could see Norco going in the same direction, although I can't confirm this.

1
9/14/2023 6:14am
I'd like to see a slacker head angle.  I have '21 Altitude and a '22 Instinct/Altitude Powerplay and prefer the slacker head angle of the Powerplay...

I'd like to see a slacker head angle.  I have '21 Altitude and a '22 Instinct/Altitude Powerplay and prefer the slacker head angle of the Powerplay with the same reach.  I wouldn't complain if they brought over the mid-high pivot design of the Powerplay bikes either. 

We used to put the Altitude in high and use an angle set, about 480 reach on a large with 63.8 ish i believe. Still to...

We used to put the Altitude in high and use an angle set, about 480 reach on a large with 63.8 ish i believe.

Still to this day, ive not ridden anther bike as good as the altitude.

I'm running my Altitude in pos 3 with a -1 angleset, which puts the reach at closer to ~473

1
Uncle Cliffy
Posts
375
Joined
3/11/2010
Location
Medford, OR US
9/14/2023 6:47am
Onawalk wrote:

The Druid V2, and Range are essentially just flipped Horst link bikes.  Same same, just upside down...

…And the Sight and Optic will be right side up…

mtbman99
Posts
115
Joined
8/30/2016
Location
CA
9/14/2023 9:16am
mtbman99 wrote:
I have not ridden a high pivot bike personally but several of my buddies who spent a few seasons on them have switched back to a...

I have not ridden a high pivot bike personally but several of my buddies who spent a few seasons on them have switched back to a more “conventional” suspension layout. The bit of extra maintenance with the idler and the less efficient climbing were the main factors.
 

Also jumping up in travel with little downsides on current gen bikes didn’t hurt either. 

Onawalk wrote:
Im not entirely sure what is meant by "traditional" design.  Are you trying they have moved away from a HP/idler bike to a different suspension platform...

Im not entirely sure what is meant by "traditional" design.  Are you trying they have moved away from a HP/idler bike to a different suspension platform?

The HP/idler comes in different flavours

A typical Horst link 4 bar bike with a pivot closer to the bb without an idler would fairly traditional mainstream package for many years.

The high pivot idler bikes are not new tech but until recently saw very limited acceptance.

 

metadave
Posts
1244
Joined
2/15/2016
Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
9/14/2023 10:12am

Seems the new Intense will be released as an M1 if this is true, although I'm not seeing it anywhere else yet. 

 

Screenshot 20230914-111125.png?VersionId=8b3pbWdv jEoOpCoRnd8ypffSkgUK

8
9/14/2023 10:19am Edited Date/Time 9/14/2023 11:40am

Makes me wonder how Marin manages to keep their bikes in shops considering their bikes tend to compete with DTC brand pricing. I loved my 27.5 SQ, this looks very nice. 

5
vinny4130
Posts
90
Joined
10/12/2009
Location
Albuquerque, NM US
9/14/2023 1:08pm
metadave wrote:
Seems the new Intense will be released as an M1 if this is true, although I'm not seeing it anywhere else yet.   

Seems the new Intense will be released as an M1 if this is true, although I'm not seeing it anywhere else yet. 

 

Screenshot 20230914-111125.png?VersionId=8b3pbWdv jEoOpCoRnd8ypffSkgUK

Please be mustard and ketchup (catsup?) please!!! look at how good the giant throw back looked!

5
madsam9
Posts
59
Joined
6/11/2016
Location
IT
9/14/2023 1:13pm
metadave wrote:
Seems the new Intense will be released as an M1 if this is true, although I'm not seeing it anywhere else yet.   

Seems the new Intense will be released as an M1 if this is true, although I'm not seeing it anywhere else yet. 

 

Screenshot 20230914-111125.png?VersionId=8b3pbWdv jEoOpCoRnd8ypffSkgUK

I was told around January/February, they'll launch a dirt jump bike (I assume soon) before the downhill bike

One Ghost
Posts
159
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Tacoma, WA US
9/14/2023 3:15pm
New optic. Heard from my LBS that it and the incoming sight are HP. 

New optic. Heard from my LBS that it and the incoming sight are HP. IMG 4468

kcy4130 wrote:
Modular lower shock mount. I wonder if it's only to adjust kinematics or if they're trying to use same front triangle for both optic and sight...

Modular lower shock mount. I wonder if it's only to adjust kinematics or if they're trying to use same front triangle for both optic and sight, w/ different shock mount and longer stroke shock? If combined with head angle adjustability the drawbacks for doing it this way lessened, but still not ideal. Seems big and clunky for just a kinematics adjuster. Or maybe it's for converting between mullet and 29?

A little birdie told me the new Optic will be offered in full 29" or mixed wheel. After seeing Trek's design for switching between mixed wheel...

A little birdie told me the new Optic will be offered in full 29" or mixed wheel. After seeing Trek's design for switching between mixed wheel and 29" I could see Norco going in the same direction, although I can't confirm this.

I heard the same bird as it flew over my place here in the PNW

1
9/14/2023 9:46pm
Makes me wonder how Marin manages to keep their bikes in shops considering their bikes tend to compete with DTC brand pricing. I loved my 27.5...

Makes me wonder how Marin manages to keep their bikes in shops considering their bikes tend to compete with DTC brand pricing. I loved my 27.5 SQ, this looks very nice. 

They don't have really high end builds with really high end parts, and use a lot of house-brand components, like cockpit stuff and even wheels. I think it's partially because of that. 

9/15/2023 2:08am
why are people, in general, afraid of high-pivots? don't like it, don't buy a norco? there's literally hundreds of options nowadays with pretty much the same...

why are people, in general, afraid of high-pivots? don't like it, don't buy a norco? there's literally hundreds of options nowadays with pretty much the same geometry

I have a current range and I love it. But it has its drawbacks; generally characteristics that I’d purchase a short travel to avoid. 

9/15/2023 2:11am
Onawalk wrote:
Theres more to it than simply pivot location in terms of the bike pedalling well, thats a generalization that doesnt really hold up.  You can make...

Theres more to it than simply pivot location in terms of the bike pedalling well, thats a generalization that doesnt really hold up.  You can make a HP bike pedal as well or better than a non-HP bike (lets be honest, theres no "traditional" bike here for arguments sake) and when we are talking about HP bikes, we are talking about the seemingly more prevelant HP idler equipped bikes.  A horst link, or VPP bike can be built to have a high virtual pivot, and not rely on an idler, but theres a whole other differnet set of challenges

The HP and idler allow the designer to separate the different forces more easily, to isolate different aspects of the suspension design (like a 6 bar, with less complexity, or maybe just different). 

The Druid climbs well, loads of traction, and is very predictable, eats rough stuff like no other short travel bike I've ridden (cause if you took the rearward growth, of about 18mm, it might actually be closer to a 150mm bike)  in doing so, the pedalling "platform" arrives quicker than if it was a Sight with 150mm travel lets say.  So theres a sense of spritelyness, or urgency to it when you do pedal it around.  Think of it like a bike that "feels" fast (short travel, maybe tighter geo) but when it gets hairy feels like a 150ish bike (longer WB, eats chunder)

I also think that the short travel versions of these bikes help to alleviate the drawbacks on the longer travel versions (excessive chain growth, excessive chainstay length, that sensation of growth when jumping or cornering)

Im hoping Norco has found a way to drop 4lbs compared to the Druid, and make it a bit more cost effective, but knowing Norco, itll prolly be 3lbs heavier...

It’s interesting what you’re saying here concerning the Optic and Sight redesign. Technically, the redesign won’t be much different than they are now. Definitely not like...

It’s interesting what you’re saying here concerning the Optic and Sight redesign. Technically, the redesign won’t be much different than they are now. Definitely not like a Forbidden… And yes, with the idler they will definitely be a little heavier than they were. Wink

So like a shore then?

orrhadar
Posts
8
Joined
3/21/2023
Location
Nes Ziona IL
9/15/2023 7:56am Edited Date/Time 9/15/2023 8:43am

Does anybody here have a release date for the norco HP's that were mentioned here?

HH4L
Posts
13
Joined
6/11/2020
Location
CA
9/15/2023 9:53am

So I went to the Specialized shop here in Canada and the girl really didn't know about a new Enduro at all... She said to go back in october when they'll have 2024 catalogue but for now, they don't even have an embargo for it, just nothing..!?  

I am not sure about the Slash anymore so I'll wait to see if there is something special about that new Altitude, maybe the Sight too but I think I'm gonna try to find something more like a 6bar than HP with idler. Sad   

Atherton are not talking a lot about that new 170mm enduro, only about the smaller and DH ones.... probably be a lonnggg time before we can buy the ''cheaper'' option we saw, that seems to be alloy. 

3
2
9/15/2023 11:35am
sspomer wrote:
pit bits from chatel EDR (caution, there may be a high-pivot bike or two inside) https://www.vitalmtb.com/pit-bits-edr-chatel

pit bits from chatel EDR (caution, there may be a high-pivot bike or two inside)

https://www.vitalmtb.com/pit-bits-edr-chatel

chatelA

Is that Jack Moir using an OChain? That would be new for him.... have we all agreed yet if they are effective?

5
lucythefin
Posts
6
Joined
3/27/2017
Location
Phoenix, AZ US
9/15/2023 12:08pm
HH4L wrote:
So I went to the Specialized shop here in Canada and the girl really didn't know about a new Enduro at all... She said to go...

So I went to the Specialized shop here in Canada and the girl really didn't know about a new Enduro at all... She said to go back in october when they'll have 2024 catalogue but for now, they don't even have an embargo for it, just nothing..!?  

I am not sure about the Slash anymore so I'll wait to see if there is something special about that new Altitude, maybe the Sight too but I think I'm gonna try to find something more like a 6bar than HP with idler. Sad   

Atherton are not talking a lot about that new 170mm enduro, only about the smaller and DH ones.... probably be a lonnggg time before we can buy the ''cheaper'' option we saw, that seems to be alloy. 

Just get an WAO Arrival 170. Best long travel enduro bike I've ridden period.

3
1
HH4L
Posts
13
Joined
6/11/2020
Location
CA
9/15/2023 1:00pm Edited Date/Time 9/15/2023 1:16pm
HH4L wrote:
So I went to the Specialized shop here in Canada and the girl really didn't know about a new Enduro at all... She said to go...

So I went to the Specialized shop here in Canada and the girl really didn't know about a new Enduro at all... She said to go back in october when they'll have 2024 catalogue but for now, they don't even have an embargo for it, just nothing..!?  

I am not sure about the Slash anymore so I'll wait to see if there is something special about that new Altitude, maybe the Sight too but I think I'm gonna try to find something more like a 6bar than HP with idler. Sad   

Atherton are not talking a lot about that new 170mm enduro, only about the smaller and DH ones.... probably be a lonnggg time before we can buy the ''cheaper'' option we saw, that seems to be alloy. 

lucythefin wrote:

Just get an WAO Arrival 170. Best long travel enduro bike I've ridden period.

I don't want to go back to a slack seatutube!  It seems like a perfect bike otherwise but that really bothers me... if I could at least try one but that's a lot of money to send to them knowing that I'll probably be over that rear wheel, like my first Knolly. Sad  

They don't have the frame only option anymore???  Pretty sure they used to have that... now they only have the CAD 11k SP1 bike on their site. 

5
9/15/2023 1:22pm
sspomer wrote:
pit bits from chatel EDR (caution, there may be a high-pivot bike or two inside) https://www.vitalmtb.com/pit-bits-edr-chatel

pit bits from chatel EDR (caution, there may be a high-pivot bike or two inside)

https://www.vitalmtb.com/pit-bits-edr-chatel

chatelA

Is that Jack Moir using an OChain? That would be new for him.... have we all agreed yet if they are effective?

I like mine a lot and their abundance on the edr/dh scene makes me feel I’m not alone.  Best way to describe the difference is I feel the bike/ground in my feet instead of in the pedals.

1
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