MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

hamncheez2003 wrote:

This was true of last-gen shocks from 10 years ago. Back then compression damping was too primitive and few people put coils on frames with less...

This was true of last-gen shocks from 10 years ago. Back then compression damping was too primitive and few people put coils on frames with less than 170mm of travel anyways. Now they perform excellent. We can go back and forth on the hows and the whys, but ultimately it comes down to inductive vs deductive reasoning: go out and ride a 150mm enduro bike with a coil and a flat leverage curve. If the coil is of decent quality and tuned properly, it will ride very well, and better for most enthusiast/expert riders than an air. 

noideamtber wrote:

sspomer wrote:

privateers, prototypes and toolbox drool. good stuff from loudenvielle pits today    

privateers, prototypes and toolbox drool. good stuff from loudenvielle pits today

 

 

noideamtber wrote:

Zuestman wrote:

intrigued.... looks good and i love what they did with the writing for the fun of it all.  gonna see a lot of pics of that.

noideamtber wrote:

Zuestman wrote:

intrigued.... looks good and i love what they did with the writing for the fun of it all.  gonna see a lot of pics of that.

noideamtber wrote:

Heres more images
https://www.mtb-news.de/news/scott-ransom-prototyp/ 
 

noideamtber wrote:

Evil96 wrote:

Funny, but still a shit Scott with all the things nobody should even consider

hidden shock, stupid remotes, cable tourism

Evil96 wrote:

Funny, but still a shit Scott with all the things nobody should even consider

hidden shock, stupid remotes, cable tourism

dolface wrote:

It's like they saw you coming 

It's like they saw you coming 

AndehM wrote:

I disagree.  I've owned 2 enduro bikes with low to moderate progressivity and ran them with good coil shocks, and they either bottom out easily on...

I disagree.  I've owned 2 enduro bikes with low to moderate progressivity and ran them with good coil shocks, and they either bottom out easily on even small jumps, or if you increase spring rate and damping to the point where they don't do that, then they feel terrible over brake bumps and small chunk.  The bikes were a Sentinel v1 (~10% progression) with a Push 11-6, and a GG Megatrail (~20% progression) with an EXT Storia.

Suns_PSD wrote:

Unfortunately, many in MTBing, are often confused on the roles played by first the spring rate and how it's used primarily to manage chassis attitude, balance...

Unfortunately, many in MTBing, are often confused on the roles played by first the spring rate and how it's used primarily to manage chassis attitude, balance and support and is mostly specific to rider/ bike combined weight & weight distribution; vs. second the role of damping which is utilized to control the rate of the movement of the suspension and is much more specific to the rider and their aggression level and terrain.

 

To put it in the most basic terms, a linear rear suspension with a coil would either a) bottom excessively, or b) have to utilize too much compression damping to prevent bottoming therefore rendering the rear suspension to be harsh on chatter and other hits. This is because inherently a spring and damping reacts very differently to a force input. A too stiff spring for instance, can still be a pogo stick going through all of it's travel easily without appropriate damping. The spring doesn't really serve to slow down the rate of shock movement outside of extremes. Stiff damping, when combined with not enough spring rate can still not have enough support and end up riding low, while simultaneously being too stiff to react quickly to bumps. You could of course go the other way with too stiff of a spring and lighter damping to prevent bottom outs, but then the rear suspension doesn't work correctly off the top and skips along with excessive initial spring rate.

 

I'm happy, that your happy with your set-ups. But really, the bikes work better when the rear shock is selected mostly to fit the leverage ratio of the bicycle.

 

For some guidance, look here:

 

Leverage Curves (avalanchedownhillracing.com)

 

You'll also notice on that very page where Craig shows the set up recommendations for a customer's E29 in the directions it says" If the fork bottoms, turn the compression in 2 clicks, etc. He never says to change the spring rate.

 

GL

hamncheez2003 wrote:

This was true of last-gen shocks from 10 years ago. Back then compression damping was too primitive and few people put coils on frames with less...

This was true of last-gen shocks from 10 years ago. Back then compression damping was too primitive and few people put coils on frames with less than 170mm of travel anyways. Now they perform excellent. We can go back and forth on the hows and the whys, but ultimately it comes down to inductive vs deductive reasoning: go out and ride a 150mm enduro bike with a coil and a flat leverage curve. If the coil is of decent quality and tuned properly, it will ride very well, and better for most enthusiast/expert riders than an air. 

Suns_PSD wrote:

Unfortunately, many in MTBing, are often confused on the roles played by first the spring rate and how it's used primarily to manage chassis attitude, balance...

Unfortunately, many in MTBing, are often confused on the roles played by first the spring rate and how it's used primarily to manage chassis attitude, balance and support and is mostly specific to rider/ bike combined weight & weight distribution; vs. second the role of damping which is utilized to control the rate of the movement of the suspension and is much more specific to the rider and their aggression level and terrain.

 

To put it in the most basic terms, a linear rear suspension with a coil would either a) bottom excessively, or b) have to utilize too much compression damping to prevent bottoming therefore rendering the rear suspension to be harsh on chatter and other hits. This is because inherently a spring and damping reacts very differently to a force input. A too stiff spring for instance, can still be a pogo stick going through all of it's travel easily without appropriate damping. The spring doesn't really serve to slow down the rate of shock movement outside of extremes. Stiff damping, when combined with not enough spring rate can still not have enough support and end up riding low, while simultaneously being too stiff to react quickly to bumps. You could of course go the other way with too stiff of a spring and lighter damping to prevent bottom outs, but then the rear suspension doesn't work correctly off the top and skips along with excessive initial spring rate.

 

I'm happy, that your happy with your set-ups. But really, the bikes work better when the rear shock is selected mostly to fit the leverage ratio of the bicycle.

 

For some guidance, look here:

 

Leverage Curves (avalanchedownhillracing.com)

 

You'll also notice on that very page where Craig shows the set up recommendations for a customer's E29 in the directions it says" If the fork bottoms, turn the compression in 2 clicks, etc. He never says to change the spring rate.

 

GL

hamncheez2003 wrote:

This was true of last-gen shocks from 10 years ago. Back then compression damping was too primitive and few people put coils on frames with less...

This was true of last-gen shocks from 10 years ago. Back then compression damping was too primitive and few people put coils on frames with less than 170mm of travel anyways. Now they perform excellent. We can go back and forth on the hows and the whys, but ultimately it comes down to inductive vs deductive reasoning: go out and ride a 150mm enduro bike with a coil and a flat leverage curve. If the coil is of decent quality and tuned properly, it will ride very well, and better for most enthusiast/expert riders than an air. 

Suns_PSD wrote:

Sorry, but just no. Valving has not magically just now became a thing.  In fact the Woodie Coil was dead dialed in about 2 decades ago...

Sorry, but just no. Valving has not magically just now became a thing. 

In fact the Woodie Coil was dead dialed in about 2 decades ago and if it fit modern sizing, better than 99% of what's out there right now. MX shocks have been dialed in for 30 years as they combine a coil with 30% progression.

And I have tried a coil on my SJEvo, an EXT revalved 2x, seven different springs & 2 different links, and it never worked as well as a proper high volume air shock did from the moment it was strapped on. That's not really the fault of the shock itself, as much as it was just a bad match for the leverage chart under a somewhat aggressive rider. However if EXT had utilized a custom sized/ shaped & density bottom out bumper to match the bike's leverage chart (as Avalanche does) that shock would have done a lot better as that bumper adds a lot of spring ramp up right at the end.

 

No matter how ideal the damping is, if the overall spring rate (shock & bike) isn't right the rear suspension will not operate at it's peak, and changing the damping to try and cover that up, just gives you bad damping, no matter how sophisticated the compression damping is.

GL.

krabo83 wrote:

please discuss further per DM or in a new thread, it‘s about rumors hear! thx

noideamtber wrote:

hitar_potar wrote:

They bought Bold bicycles, i think, that’s why the newest gen Scotts have hidden shocks.

veefour wrote:

Having a bike with cable tourism is bad enough. Having a written reminder of where the cables could be run is just rubbing salt in the...

Having a bike with cable tourism is bad enough. Having a written reminder of where the cables could be run is just rubbing salt in the wounds.

Evil96 wrote:

That looks like the new other tyre from Schwalbe yet to be released, Hunting Holly https://www.instagram.com/p/CwmjOKnq7JM/?igshid=MWZjMTM2ODFkZg==  

That looks like the new other tyre from Schwalbe yet to be released, Hunting Holly https://www.instagram.com/p/CwmjOKnq7JM/?igshid=MWZjMTM2ODFkZg==

 

Evil96 wrote:

That looks like the new other tyre from Schwalbe yet to be released, Hunting Holly https://www.instagram.com/p/CwmjOKnq7JM/?igshid=MWZjMTM2ODFkZg==  

That looks like the new other tyre from Schwalbe yet to be released, Hunting Holly https://www.instagram.com/p/CwmjOKnq7JM/?igshid=MWZjMTM2ODFkZg==

 

shreda wrote:

Hunting Holly?