MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Primoz
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4586
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SI
1/6/2022 9:33am
Does linkage handle URTs correctly? The pedal kickback makes no sense as there shouldn't be any technically...
One Ghost
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160
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8/1/2009
Location
Tacoma, WA US
1/6/2022 9:47am
iceman2058 wrote:
Well here's something new. Paradox claims to have developed a new suspension linkage platform that offers better efficiency with less trade-offs...what do you think? It's going...
Well here's something new. Paradox claims to have developed a new suspension linkage platform that offers better efficiency with less trade-offs...what do you think? It's going to launch on Kickstarter, here's a link to the campaign where you can see more of the design and read about the thinking behind it...: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paradoxmountainbike/paradox-mounta….

3
1
synBike
Posts
46
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3/15/2021
Location
North Vancouver, BC CA
1/6/2022 11:45am
Primoz wrote:
Does linkage handle URTs correctly? The pedal kickback makes no sense as there shouldn't be any technically...
You still get pedal kickback from the wheel wind up. A bunch of different terms in calculating pedal kickback some with more real-world relevance than others but if you picture the BB on the frame constrained to a vertical slider and compressing the suspension the wheel will move backwards with respect to the bike (rearward axle path) and that will wind the cranks up creating some pedal kickback. On most bikes this effect is almost negligible (~ -3 to 3 degrees) but on bikes with a lot of rearward axle path it can be significant.

I would say there is also probably an argument against ignoring any windup on a URT bike but let's be honest pedal kickback is the least of this bikes issues.

FWIW those numbers come from a different linkage solving tool; there is some errors in Linkages pedal kickback algorithm (a term from the full equation is missing based on linkages own theory).
Primoz
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SI
1/6/2022 11:51am Edited Date/Time 1/6/2022 11:53am
Supposedly locking the rear wheel (compared to the rear triangle) gives you the pedal kickback. If the BB and the rear brake are on the same member, there is no change in distance between them, thus no chain pull and thus no rotation of the cranks. And no pedal kickback. As far as I'm aware, pedal kickback is directly proportional to chainstay (chain length) growth (the more growth, the more kickback) and to the chainring size (the larger the ring, the less kickback)

There are some slightly weird things happening when you have a concentric pivot point or an idler, where you still can get some kickback because of the chain wrapping and unwrapping if I'm not mistaken, but you don't have this effect with an URT. Therefore 'no kickback'. The issue is the whole triangle AND the BB itself are rotating. But the BB is rotating forwards.

Still, no chain growth, no kickback... Kinda like on a hardtail.
synBike
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46
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Location
North Vancouver, BC CA
1/6/2022 12:30pm
Primoz wrote:
Supposedly locking the rear wheel (compared to the rear triangle) gives you the pedal kickback. If the BB and the rear brake are on the same...
Supposedly locking the rear wheel (compared to the rear triangle) gives you the pedal kickback. If the BB and the rear brake are on the same member, there is no change in distance between them, thus no chain pull and thus no rotation of the cranks. And no pedal kickback. As far as I'm aware, pedal kickback is directly proportional to chainstay (chain length) growth (the more growth, the more kickback) and to the chainring size (the larger the ring, the less kickback)

There are some slightly weird things happening when you have a concentric pivot point or an idler, where you still can get some kickback because of the chain wrapping and unwrapping if I'm not mistaken, but you don't have this effect with an URT. Therefore 'no kickback'. The issue is the whole triangle AND the BB itself are rotating. But the BB is rotating forwards.

Still, no chain growth, no kickback... Kinda like on a hardtail.
With a locked rear wheel you are correct there would be no wheel wind from the axle path and essentially no pedal kickback on a URT (relevant for certain scenarios). On a URT you could look at wheel wind either by fixing the frame or the bb horizontally (and allowed to slide vertically). With the frame fixed you get some pedal kickback with the BB fixed you don't. In either case I don't think the result is very relevant to real world riding but thats where the figure above is coming from.

"pedal kickback is directly proportional to chainstay (chain length) growth"
It's not the chainstay growth but the chain growth which is compose of a few terms. The wheel wind can be ignored if you treat the wheel as locked.

Pedal kickback should not be treated as an absolute perfect number. It's really just an approximation to compare between bicycles to get an idea of how much of the phenomenon you will get in relative terms. There is too many dynamic properties such as impact velocity, wheel speed, and hub engagement involved to rely on a static number completely. It's also a metric created by a single persons research that was eventually rolled into linkage. Pole has a link to some of the original figures:

https://polebicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/PedalKickbackCalculation.pdf (Original credit to Gergely Kovacs who behind LinkageX3)

And this is a recap of the different terms and variable in calculating the chain length change:
https://docs.syn.bike/definitions#def-chain

Cheers.
1
airwreck
Posts
106
Joined
4/7/2015
Location
Wailuku, HI US
1/6/2022 12:37pm
iceman2058 wrote:
Well here's something new. Paradox claims to have developed a new suspension linkage platform that offers better efficiency with less trade-offs...what do you think? It's going...
Well here's something new. Paradox claims to have developed a new suspension linkage platform that offers better efficiency with less trade-offs...what do you think? It's going to launch on Kickstarter, here's a link to the campaign where you can see more of the design and read about the thinking behind it...: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paradoxmountainbike/paradox-mounta….

I like the floating rear brake.
Primoz
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4586
Joined
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Location
SI
1/6/2022 1:21pm
Well the rear wheel being locked is the worst case situation. Any other case will result in less pedal kickback for a given design.

As for front triangle fixed, the cranks are fixed to the swingarm then. In that case, with the drivetrain locked, the cranks rotate in the opposite direction of pedal kickback, i.e. it's negative.

I know it's chain growth, but chainstay growth is the usual factor behind it. And I know it depends on the chainwrap angles and sizes as well. No worries.
smelly
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218
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3/7/2016
Location
Colorado Springs, CO US
1/6/2022 5:24pm
Primoz wrote:
If I understand it the point is to develop the frame and make a prototype. So spending all the money on prototyping is what's being sold...
If I understand it the point is to develop the frame and make a prototype. So spending all the money on prototyping is what's being sold here. "Fund my dreams" if you will...
boozed wrote:
Why doesn't he just buy some tubing and teach himself to weld?!

That shouldn't take $90k...
Right. Seems unlikely Neko spent $90k developing his frame
1/6/2022 7:22pm
iceman2058 wrote:
Well here's something new. Paradox claims to have developed a new suspension linkage platform that offers better efficiency with less trade-offs...what do you think? It's going...
Well here's something new. Paradox claims to have developed a new suspension linkage platform that offers better efficiency with less trade-offs...what do you think? It's going to launch on Kickstarter, here's a link to the campaign where you can see more of the design and read about the thinking behind it...: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paradoxmountainbike/paradox-mounta….

kinda looks like a yikes to me bro. bottom bracket should be on the front triangle, otherwise its basically a hardtail. GT had a whole thing going on and they moved past that for a reason. ill crunch the numbers on it but i dont think my software can do it properly if the bottom bracket isnt on the front triangle
bearorso
Posts
6
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10/26/2020
Location
EP, NSW AU
1/6/2022 9:11pm Edited Date/Time 1/6/2022 9:14pm
An abomination ( the Paradox ) , that this bloke wants others to pay the development of.

Here's a hint to this person : learn to weld and machine yourself, and Make the bloody thing, Yourself.

I did that in the early 70s, first as a 12 year old. It's had me earning money, and making my Own frames, and Designing / Prototyping for manufacturers, for now over 5 decades.

It's a URT, no matter what 'scissor linkage' he's designed. So, having the riders mass going into the un-sprung mass total, the millisecond that they get off the seat. It's just dreadful engineering, if you can call it engineering.



6
1
metadave
Posts
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Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
Fantasy
1/6/2022 9:44pm
Neanderthal has something on the spindle coming up......
boozed
Posts
674
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AU
1/6/2022 9:48pm Edited Date/Time 1/6/2022 9:50pm
Primoz wrote:
While I don't have concrete experience regarding the matter (designing bikes), I am interested in it, but more crucially, I work as a mechanical engineer for...
While I don't have concrete experience regarding the matter (designing bikes), I am interested in it, but more crucially, I work as a mechanical engineer for an automotive supplier, where I deal with product development on a somewhat architectural and testing level (so not on the mechanical design as in 3D modelling and drawing preparation and/or component manufacturing, buying, assembly, etc.). Therefore it's very logical to me why you would not do it that way, at least I wouldn't (more power to those that would).

The gist of it, its not just a welder. You also need a lot of other components, like headtubes, dropouts, rocker links, pivot locations, etc. It's not just the tubes and a welder. With a hardtail you can buy all the components, so you need to "just" add a frame jig and you're set. Standard frame jigs don't work for a full suspension bike as pivot points are not covered. Plus you need separate jigs for the rear components (chainstays and seatstays or rear triangle, depending on the frame design). Plus you need a lot of machines (lathes and mills) to produce the parts I mentioned before. And to finish off the frame too.

That's on the production side and it makes sense to find someone who can do that quickly and has the tools, it's better to pay someone like that.

If you're interested in suspension design, it makes sense to have that design made by someone who knows what they are doing in order to make the frame strong enough. If you're a beginner, you have no idea what kind of tubes will be strong enough. You could run simulations to be more sure of that, but you need the external loads defined well enough. I'm guessing that's sort of a trade secret for the brands that have this kind of info. So you don't have the data to run any meaningful simulations as well.

If I was developing a suspension system, I'd be finding someone that made me the frame. Just like Neko did. Focus on what you think you will be best at and don't put too much on your plate. Complicate things later, only after you are on top of the first set of things - develop suspension, make protos, acquire or measure loads, optimize design, have it manufactured in series (if that is the goal).

Many companies in Asia make frames these days, I think the main differentiator these days is the suspension design and geometry of the frame (then the spec sheet and price of the bike).
I was being a little bit flippant but thanks for the detailed explanation of what's actually involved
1
Primoz
Posts
4586
Joined
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Location
SI
1/7/2022 1:42am Edited Date/Time 1/7/2022 1:47am
Primoz wrote:
If I understand it the point is to develop the frame and make a prototype. So spending all the money on prototyping is what's being sold...
If I understand it the point is to develop the frame and make a prototype. So spending all the money on prototyping is what's being sold here. "Fund my dreams" if you will...
boozed wrote:
Why doesn't he just buy some tubing and teach himself to weld?!

That shouldn't take $90k...
smelly wrote:
Right. Seems unlikely Neko spent $90k developing his frame
Well if you take into account the man hours at a given hourly rate (50 USD for a US based engineer isn't impossible, 100 USD as a gross-gross expenditure, when you're paying a company also isn't a crazy value), it makes things a bit different. Add some software licence expenditures to that, tools and so on and it's not a crazy number.

A big factor in all of this is also the fact it's a ground up design from someone who hasn't done anything like this before. If you're a company offering these kinds of services to multiple customers, all of that expenditure gets shared between the customers and the final cost for one specific customer is lower.
1/7/2022 4:30am
So Bruni is again testing a new tyre from spech named Cannibal. This new-ish tyre isn't on the market yet but I've already seen it somewhere under Chris grice a couple of months ago.

It's known that Bruni is racing on blacked out Minions or shortys depends on the terrain.

Spech tyres are awesome and got great reviews from vital and other sites, but have a noticable difference in total volume compared the maxxis's 2.5/2.4 WT tyres.

We might see this new tyre come in an only 2.5 width and smaller total volume.

Bruni is known for his preference of narrower wheels - using 25 inner width rims.

This might be a killer option from specialized.


8
hogfly
Posts
469
Joined
2/10/2020
Location
Fayetteville, AR US
1/7/2022 8:15am
Cool! I actually like the "new" specialized rubber pretty well. The T9 compound is no joke.
1
1/7/2022 8:15am
So Bruni is again testing a new tyre from spech named Cannibal. This new-ish tyre isn't on the market yet but I've already seen it somewhere...
So Bruni is again testing a new tyre from spech named Cannibal. This new-ish tyre isn't on the market yet but I've already seen it somewhere under Chris grice a couple of months ago.

It's known that Bruni is racing on blacked out Minions or shortys depends on the terrain.

Spech tyres are awesome and got great reviews from vital and other sites, but have a noticable difference in total volume compared the maxxis's 2.5/2.4 WT tyres.

We might see this new tyre come in an only 2.5 width and smaller total volume.

Bruni is known for his preference of narrower wheels - using 25 inner width rims.

This might be a killer option from specialized.


Be interesting to see if he actually runs these racing, or if the second the stopwatch comes out he throws the minions back on
1
Losifer
Posts
407
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9/12/2017
Location
Sandia Park, NM US
Fantasy
1/7/2022 9:15am
Be interesting to see if he actually runs these racing, or if the second the stopwatch comes out he throws the minions back on
I can understand why Specialized riders rode blacked-out Minions in the past, but as others have said they’ve greatly improved their compounds and (at least in the Grid Trail) their casing durability.

I haven’t tried the Grid Gravity, so perhaps it’s not up to the rigors of WCDH, but Specialized is taking their tire game seriously.
hogfly
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469
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Location
Fayetteville, AR US
1/7/2022 10:09am
Be interesting to see if he actually runs these racing, or if the second the stopwatch comes out he throws the minions back on
Losifer wrote:
I can understand why Specialized riders rode blacked-out Minions in the past, but as others have said they’ve greatly improved their compounds and (at least in...
I can understand why Specialized riders rode blacked-out Minions in the past, but as others have said they’ve greatly improved their compounds and (at least in the Grid Trail) their casing durability.

I haven’t tried the Grid Gravity, so perhaps it’s not up to the rigors of WCDH, but Specialized is taking their tire game seriously.
I can't speak too much to the gravity casing other than to say trying to seat one with cush core was one of the worst experiences of my life, hah.
4
1/7/2022 1:43pm
hogfly wrote:
I can't speak too much to the gravity casing other than to say trying to seat one with cush core was one of the worst experiences...
I can't speak too much to the gravity casing other than to say trying to seat one with cush core was one of the worst experiences of my life, hah.
I'm guessing it's so tough you don't really need cushcore
JimmyK
Posts
56
Joined
5/31/2021
Location
GB
1/7/2022 1:59pm
Charlie Murray on a cannibal a while back
3
1/7/2022 2:02pm
Edthorne wrote:
I'd heard rumblings that Rocky might be working on a high pivot bike. This looks to be confirmation of that. Seems like half of these NF...
I'd heard rumblings that Rocky might be working on a high pivot bike. This looks to be confirmation of that. Seems like half of these NF dudes are on the current slayer as is.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-another-prototype-high-pivot-bike…

Side note: For once something was on PB first Silly

I was thinking Devinci Wilson possibly
AndehM
Posts
664
Joined
5/7/2018
Location
El Granada, CA US
Fantasy
1/7/2022 2:28pm
So Bruni is again testing a new tyre from spech named Cannibal. This new-ish tyre isn't on the market yet but I've already seen it somewhere...
So Bruni is again testing a new tyre from spech named Cannibal. This new-ish tyre isn't on the market yet but I've already seen it somewhere under Chris grice a couple of months ago.

It's known that Bruni is racing on blacked out Minions or shortys depends on the terrain.

Spech tyres are awesome and got great reviews from vital and other sites, but have a noticable difference in total volume compared the maxxis's 2.5/2.4 WT tyres.

We might see this new tyre come in an only 2.5 width and smaller total volume.

Bruni is known for his preference of narrower wheels - using 25 inner width rims.

This might be a killer option from specialized.


Man, I'd love it if it's got better edging / less round than the Butcher. I can get great deals on Spec stuff, but just don't like the Butcher up front. The new rubber is great though, and Eliminator is a good fast rear tire (in between Dissector and DHR).
brash
Posts
949
Joined
4/24/2019
Location
AU
1/7/2022 3:02pm
Sian Ahern on a yt.

Source, my eyes
3
JayDawger
Posts
45
Joined
6/17/2013
Location
WA US
1/7/2022 4:05pm Edited Date/Time 1/7/2022 9:14pm
Edthorne wrote:
I'd heard rumblings that Rocky might be working on a high pivot bike. This looks to be confirmation of that. Seems like half of these NF...
I'd heard rumblings that Rocky might be working on a high pivot bike. This looks to be confirmation of that. Seems like half of these NF dudes are on the current slayer as is.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-another-prototype-high-pivot-bike…

Side note: For once something was on PB first Silly

mtbman99 wrote:
I was thinking Devinci Wilson possibly
it's a Rocky test mule that an ex Norco engineer designed. Won't come to life as anyone who rode it, didn't like it.
10
David9180
Posts
25
Joined
1/7/2014
Location
Lisbon PT
1/7/2022 4:13pm
Edthorne wrote:
I'd heard rumblings that Rocky might be working on a high pivot bike. This looks to be confirmation of that. Seems like half of these NF...
I'd heard rumblings that Rocky might be working on a high pivot bike. This looks to be confirmation of that. Seems like half of these NF dudes are on the current slayer as is.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-another-prototype-high-pivot-bike…

Side note: For once something was on PB first Silly


1
Edthorne
Posts
293
Joined
4/17/2020
Location
CA
1/7/2022 6:25pm
Edthorne wrote:
I'd heard rumblings that Rocky might be working on a high pivot bike. This looks to be confirmation of that. Seems like half of these NF...
I'd heard rumblings that Rocky might be working on a high pivot bike. This looks to be confirmation of that. Seems like half of these NF dudes are on the current slayer as is.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-another-prototype-high-pivot-bike…

Side note: For once something was on PB first Silly

mtbman99 wrote:
I was thinking Devinci Wilson possibly
But it's got a single crown and looks to have a chainstay pivot as well.

Also they already made a higher pivot wilson with an idler, and shortly after axed their factory WC team. In hindsight it seams like they probably were just testing the idea before slapping it on a more consumer friendly trail bike.
Yuley95
Posts
1
Joined
11/20/2021
Location
AU
1/7/2022 6:35pm
brash wrote:
Sian Ahern on a yt.

Source, my eyes
Interesting… I heard rumours she and Kye were headed to UR team on NS bikes. Guess not.
metadave
Posts
1250
Joined
2/15/2016
Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
Fantasy
1/7/2022 7:24pm
Edthorne wrote:
I'd heard rumblings that Rocky might be working on a high pivot bike. This looks to be confirmation of that. Seems like half of these NF...
I'd heard rumblings that Rocky might be working on a high pivot bike. This looks to be confirmation of that. Seems like half of these NF dudes are on the current slayer as is.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-another-prototype-high-pivot-bike…

Side note: For once something was on PB first Silly

mtbman99 wrote:
I was thinking Devinci Wilson possibly
JayDawger wrote:
it's a Rocky test mule that an ex Norco engineer designed. Won't come to life as anyone who rode it, didn't like it.
I know its not the next gen Slayer if it is Rocky.
1
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