MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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c1c51
Posts
23
Joined
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GB
Fantasy
3/13/2020 1:18pm
Are they just handing these forks to anyone, Cathro doesn't even ride for fox
peecee
Posts
427
Joined
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Location
Brisbane AU
Fantasy
3/13/2020 2:22pm
c1c51 wrote:
Are they just handing these forks to anyone, Cathro doesn't even ride for fox [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/13/9336/s1200_Screenshot_20200313_200751_Instagram.jpg[/img]
Are they just handing these forks to anyone, Cathro doesn't even ride for fox
Nice find




2
2
krabo83
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Location
AT
3/14/2020 12:11am
c1c51 wrote:
Are they just handing these forks to anyone, Cathro doesn't even ride for fox [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/13/9336/s1200_Screenshot_20200313_200751_Instagram.jpg[/img]
Are they just handing these forks to anyone, Cathro doesn't even ride for fox
peecee wrote:
Nice find [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/13/9337/s1200_8A8E60A5_1914_4B13_8222_9551079E8249.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/13/9338/s1200_4543DD3C_6D9B_4152_A77E_9958DEF9C669.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/13/9339/s1200_4758AB72_6C86_478D_AB87_C1124319B60A.jpg[/img]
Nice find




looks like his megatower also has a 38 proto on.
2
3/14/2020 1:52am
c1c51 wrote:
Are they just handing these forks to anyone, Cathro doesn't even ride for fox [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/13/9336/s1200_Screenshot_20200313_200751_Instagram.jpg[/img]
Are they just handing these forks to anyone, Cathro doesn't even ride for fox
peecee wrote:
Nice find [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/13/9337/s1200_8A8E60A5_1914_4B13_8222_9551079E8249.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/13/9338/s1200_4543DD3C_6D9B_4152_A77E_9958DEF9C669.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/13/9339/s1200_4758AB72_6C86_478D_AB87_C1124319B60A.jpg[/img]
Nice find




krabo83 wrote:
looks like his megatower also has a 38 proto on.
Nah man, that is a Marzzochi Z series fork. Note the gold damper cap and 'M' shaped for crown.
7
Camber
Posts
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Joined
12/28/2014
Location
GB
3/14/2020 5:13am
c1c51 wrote:
Are they just handing these forks to anyone, Cathro doesn't even ride for fox [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/13/9336/s1200_Screenshot_20200313_200751_Instagram.jpg[/img]
Are they just handing these forks to anyone, Cathro doesn't even ride for fox
Ben rode for Flotec last season who help with the fox servicing at world cups
3/14/2020 5:35am
Camber wrote:
Ben rode for Flotec last season who help with the fox servicing at world cups
Flotec's crew went full time with Fox too so that's probably why he's hooked up with pre production stuff
SharpieMTB
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230
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Location
Boiling Springs, PA US
3/14/2020 6:39am
Prototype Honda E-Bike spotted

9
3/14/2020 6:48am
SharpieMTB wrote:
Prototype Honda E-Bike spotted [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/14/9348/s1200_unnamed_1.jpg[/img]
Prototype Honda E-Bike spotted

Super mullet 26” rear wheel too!
1
MXBREWSK
Posts
66
Joined
2/11/2020
Location
Cottonwood, CA US
3/14/2020 8:21am
SharpieMTB wrote:
Prototype Honda E-Bike spotted [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/14/9348/s1200_unnamed_1.jpg[/img]
Prototype Honda E-Bike spotted

Yeah, although I love Honda tech I think I would rather go this route.
MXBREWSK
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66
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Location
Cottonwood, CA US
3/14/2020 8:25am

thejake
Posts
90
Joined
6/16/2018
Location
Carnation, WA US
3/14/2020 10:57am
SharpieMTB wrote:
Prototype Honda E-Bike spotted [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/03/14/9348/s1200_unnamed_1.jpg[/img]
Prototype Honda E-Bike spotted

Anyone know when Honda’s patent on their gear box is up? Back in the day I remember hearing that Honda patented every version of what they did. By the end it was basically a derailleur mounted in a can on the frame. If that’s the case when the patent is up I could see gear boxes becoming a thing.
3/14/2020 3:18pm
thejake wrote:
Anyone know when Honda’s patent on their gear box is up? Back in the day I remember hearing that Honda patented every version of what they...
Anyone know when Honda’s patent on their gear box is up? Back in the day I remember hearing that Honda patented every version of what they did. By the end it was basically a derailleur mounted in a can on the frame. If that’s the case when the patent is up I could see gear boxes becoming a thing.
At the end of last year, shimano patented a gear box that looks a lot like hondas system: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-gearbox/?image=3&type=gallery&ga…
Primoz
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3/14/2020 3:36pm Edited Date/Time 3/14/2020 3:45pm
No, it doesn't.

Shimano's patent covers two opposing cassettes. The patent covers 7-speed cassettes with one of them offsetting, giving you 13 ratios in total. Even a pair of cassettes with 1 tooth changes in sprocket size (a constant change of 1 tooth, not a percentage change like we have now) gives you an almost constant change of 15 % between gears. I calculated this by using two 11-22 cassettes and got a parabola with 12,9 change between ratios in the middle of the two cassettes and 14,3 % at the ends. And I did this calculation less than a week this news article came out.

It came about after a (heated, of course) debate what kind of gear ratios current drivetrains had, where i plotted out all the gear steps for 9spd, 10spd Sram, 11spd Sram and 12spd Sram and Shimano (both XTR versions, 10-51 and 10-45). After that i was thinking about gearboxes and came to this opposing cassettes idea. Suffice to say, the Shimano patent takes it up a notch.

Anywho, Honda used a standard drivetrain in their gearbox, nothing fancy about that. Literally a custom derailleur, a (7spd i think) cassette and an input sprocket, that could slide left-right on the input axle to align the chain with the cassette. That means it was more or less what we still have in use now, but it was better protected. And with a shorter chain it was probably better protected from all the chain slap than the rest of the drivetrains in the day.

The beauty of the mythical Honda gearbox design (that wasn't raced) was that it was a CVT. The non-beauty of it was that rotating motion was transformed into reciprocating motion and back into rotation. I'm guessing here, but the fact it never made it tinto the bikes in the end means it didn't work that well (development would help, of course) and I'd also hazard a guess it wouldn't be all that efficient. Remember, the ordinary sprocket and chain combo is, clean, lubricated and straight, crazy efficient. Even with an offset-bent and dirty chain, it's still very much efficient. I think it'd be hard to see a gearbox on a race bike other than a DH bike with the weight and efficiency penalties.
Big Bird
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Oceano, CA US
3/14/2020 4:09pm
The coolest part of the Honda design, at least according to Greg Minnaar was that one could shift at zero crank speed in the depths of a corner and pedal away hard in gear. I guess that in the past I didn't notice the bulk of that main chain ring. Perhaps it's heavy, solid steel and acts like a flywheel when not pedaling to aid in smooth shifting in a chunky turn?

I really liked the CVT concept that was leaked/guessed at by some magazine back then. Pure genius but perhaps not reliable.
Primoz
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SI
3/14/2020 4:31pm
You can shift without pedalling because the concept of rotary to reciprocating to rotary motion facilitates the. In essence it changes the leverage ratio between the two motion transformations by adapting the intermediate link length. No flywheel needed. You can change the geometry without any rotation on any of the two shafts.

Given what I've heard about sprag clutches on e-mtbs, the could also be part of the issue, getting the power to the output reliably.
3/14/2020 4:39pm
Primoz wrote:
No, it doesn't. Shimano's patent covers two opposing cassettes. The patent covers 7-speed cassettes with one of them offsetting, giving you 13 ratios in total. Even...
No, it doesn't.

Shimano's patent covers two opposing cassettes. The patent covers 7-speed cassettes with one of them offsetting, giving you 13 ratios in total. Even a pair of cassettes with 1 tooth changes in sprocket size (a constant change of 1 tooth, not a percentage change like we have now) gives you an almost constant change of 15 % between gears. I calculated this by using two 11-22 cassettes and got a parabola with 12,9 change between ratios in the middle of the two cassettes and 14,3 % at the ends. And I did this calculation less than a week this news article came out.

It came about after a (heated, of course) debate what kind of gear ratios current drivetrains had, where i plotted out all the gear steps for 9spd, 10spd Sram, 11spd Sram and 12spd Sram and Shimano (both XTR versions, 10-51 and 10-45). After that i was thinking about gearboxes and came to this opposing cassettes idea. Suffice to say, the Shimano patent takes it up a notch.

Anywho, Honda used a standard drivetrain in their gearbox, nothing fancy about that. Literally a custom derailleur, a (7spd i think) cassette and an input sprocket, that could slide left-right on the input axle to align the chain with the cassette. That means it was more or less what we still have in use now, but it was better protected. And with a shorter chain it was probably better protected from all the chain slap than the rest of the drivetrains in the day.

The beauty of the mythical Honda gearbox design (that wasn't raced) was that it was a CVT. The non-beauty of it was that rotating motion was transformed into reciprocating motion and back into rotation. I'm guessing here, but the fact it never made it tinto the bikes in the end means it didn't work that well (development would help, of course) and I'd also hazard a guess it wouldn't be all that efficient. Remember, the ordinary sprocket and chain combo is, clean, lubricated and straight, crazy efficient. Even with an offset-bent and dirty chain, it's still very much efficient. I think it'd be hard to see a gearbox on a race bike other than a DH bike with the weight and efficiency penalties.
I was comparing the shimano patent to the non cvt honda, and while executed differently their ideas are somewhat similar. While shimanos patent uses a fixed and a sliding casette contrary to the more trafitional system of the honda, it still looks like it uses a derailleur-like mechanism to guide the chain between the cassettes to achieve a perfect chainline. A gearbox driven by chain and cassette(s) probably has less drag than one with planetary gears like a pinion.

It will be exciting to see if shimano takes their patent further. Really liking the idea of taking the weight off the rear wheel and putting it in the center
Primoz
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3/15/2020 6:45am Edited Date/Time 3/15/2020 6:47am
So was I. And my point stands.

The non-CVT Honda, as written, uses a single cassette and a single input sprocket with a derailleur. While the Shimano patent does move the cassette side-to-side by one tooth (to gain extra ratios), the base shifting mechanism is switching the gear pair on which the chain runs. Of course you're going to have something derailleur-like to move the chain, but the point is, that when you shift the chain from one sprocket to the other on one cassette, you do it on the other cassette as well. Without the offset mechanism for one cassette, you would have 7 distinct gear pairs. This is completely unlike anything we have seen on bikes up to this point. 3x8 systems, while more similar, give you 24 more or less distinct gear combinations (with quite a lot of overlap when it comes to front sprockets). Shimano's patent gives you 14 in this case.

If they didn't have the cassette offsetting and kept the 7 gear pairs, this would be what car transmissions with constant mesh gear pairs do. But the gear selection here is done by moving the chain around. Or, if you will, a 'Honda like' version of the gearbox from the Shimano patent would use one cassette and 7 equally sized sprockets for the other shaft.

The kicker? You have a much more constant chain length if you have two opposing pyramids, so there's much less tensioning needed, unlike the systems we use now.

As for planetary gears and Pinion, you're wrong here again. Rohloff uses planetary gears and Nicolai's G-Boxx 1 used a Rohloff in a frame mounted box. G-Boxx 2 used a different system (something akin to pawl clutches if I'm not mistaken for gear selection and chains to connect the two shafts). Pinion uses standard involute gear pairs, just like a car, but uses in essence 2 serially mounted gearboxes, one 3 speed and the other 3, 4 or 6 speed, depending on the model (9, 12 or 18 speed model). The output of the second is concentric to the input of the first. But the pint here is they use constant mesh involute gear pairs, just like any manual car transmission. There are no planetaries involved here.

But yes, Shimano's patent should still be more efficient than a Pinion gearbox. There are less bearings, less meshed gears and the like in contact. There will be a drag to the meshed gears even if they are not powered.
MXBREWSK
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Location
Cottonwood, CA US
3/15/2020 4:40pm
This explains it a bit better than that weird video!! lol https://www.ochain.bike/
MXBREWSK
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3/15/2020 5:25pm
Sir HC wrote:
https://instagram.com/ochaincomponents?igshid=19q4vwki4wg14 https://youtu.be/niwYl4R7gA4 Interesting concept, YouTube video is a bit odd!
For sure interesting after you see the explanation of how it works.
Big Bird
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3/15/2020 6:14pm Edited Date/Time 3/15/2020 6:15pm
sspomer wrote:
pretty sure the voiceover in the video is the same voice in SRAM tech vids at least bleeding brakes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRt-CP2l474 ochain is super interesting. good find...
pretty sure the voiceover in the video is the same voice in SRAM tech vids at least bleeding brakes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRt-CP2l474

ochain is super interesting. good find! straight to the tech page
https://www.ochain.bike/technical-support-page

That right there is the answer to the last Listener Reaction Question.

And good job on the stock translator tone find.
3/16/2020 1:42am
So basically OCHAIN is throwing fast engagement hubs out the window..
Primoz
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SI
3/16/2020 2:03am
It makes them necessary to get a decent engagement :D
1
3/16/2020 2:19am
Primoz wrote:
It makes them necessary to get a decent engagement :D
And then getting more pedal kickback. I would rather have a freecoaster...
3/16/2020 5:57am
Sir HC wrote:
https://instagram.com/ochaincomponents?igshid=19q4vwki4wg14 https://youtu.be/niwYl4R7gA4 Interesting concept, YouTube video is a bit odd!
Someone is following Paul Aston on the gram
1
3/16/2020 11:37am
$299 Euro makes it a somewhat pricy experiment but I am interested. That said I don't feel like I ever really notice pedal kickback while riding however that could just be result of being used to it and not knowing better.

I haven't experimented with chain-less descents but it would be easy to do. Just bring some pliers and a ziplock bag to pack the chain for each descent.
1
Losifer
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Sandia Park, NM US
Fantasy
3/16/2020 7:32pm
I'm ahead of the curve with my 18t DT350!!!
Masjo
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248
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11/25/2014
Location
Ancaster CA
3/17/2020 4:35am
Searching 'Rockshox SID Ultimate 2021' and the name of your favourite MTB website does bring up a broken link... May want to get that locked down until the embargo lifts fellas!
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