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MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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2/29/2020 11:32 PM

Photo of the new 36/38 with an arched lower bridge. Photo credit to Sven.

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2/29/2020 11:34 PM

bermslapper69 wrote:

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Wide range TRP drivetrain coming soon? Looks like it says trp on the rear and the styling/general shape seems similar to their DH derailleur.

Lew Buchanan has essentially confirmed it. No sign of a cassette of their own though. Probably just going to be compatible with others' cassettes. Also, I dont pay much attention to TRP brakes but is that a new lever on Lew's bike? Photo
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3/1/2020 12:43 AM

Looking pretty production ready to me Photo

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3/1/2020 7:35 AM

The brakes look to pretty similar to the Quadiems I'm running right now....

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3/1/2020 11:52 AM

In the other website a saw this photos, I think it is 36 stanchions...
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3/1/2020 1:31 PM

New 38 same & new 40 that comes out for MY21

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3/1/2020 1:35 PM

There will be an 38 option availabel soon - but it is not a Fox fork :-)

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3/1/2020 10:53 PM

Another yawn fork from Fox...a Dual crown version would be more interesting! Would be nice to see some real innovation from FOX and ROCKSHOX without them being scared of weight restrictions and with some proper service intervals eg +200hours.
I am way more interested in the new EXT fork coming out!

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3/1/2020 11:23 PM

If you need a Dual crwon version, you can get a Boxxer.

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3/2/2020 12:42 AM

GUILLO wrote:

In the other website a saw this photos, I think it is 36 stanchions...
Photo
Photo

Yes it’s just got the beefier stanchions, lowers, crown and probably axle flanges like the lyric

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3/2/2020 1:58 AM
Edited Date/Time: 3/2/2020 2:00 AM

Mountain bike brand adds 2mm to their product and entire industry looses its shit.

How on earth did they think of this?
Such ground breaking innovation

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3/2/2020 2:18 AM

They sure don't look like having 38mm,I think they are still 36 mm

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3/2/2020 2:34 AM

Tristan_Mayor wrote:

Mountain bike brand adds 2mm to their product and entire industry looses its shit.

How on earth did they think of this?
Such ground breaking innovation

Think of all the r&d that went into researching how much bigger 38 is than 36 though. They probably had to buy a ruler and everything. That sort of tooling costs money.

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3/2/2020 4:08 AM

lister_yu wrote:

There will be an 38 option availabel soon - but it is not a Fox fork :-)

EXT Era?

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3/2/2020 5:47 AM

I was riding at Windrock yesterday and some pros such as Richie were there. I overheard someone asking him if he was running 38s. I did not hear a yes or no, but more like a kinda/maybe. That was a yes for sure.

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3/2/2020 7:02 AM

twodogsfighting wrote:

Think of all the r&d that went into researching how much bigger 38 is than 36 though. They probably had to buy a ruler and everything. That sort of tooling costs money.

Joke of the year man grin

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3/2/2020 7:42 AM

Fred_Pop wrote:

Another yawn fork from Fox...a Dual crown version would be more interesting! Would be nice to see some real innovation from FOX and ROCKSHOX without them being scared of weight restrictions and with some proper service intervals eg +200hours.
I am way more interested in the new EXT fork coming out!

re: service intervals - don't quote me, it's been a while, but IIRC, darren murphy of PUSH discusses how current recommneded service intervals are pretty darn long these days. he wishes recommended service intervals were actually shorter b/c of the abuse our suspension can go through at times.

i think it's in this inside line - https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/MTB-Suspension-Q-amp-A-Session-Darren-Murphy-of-PUSH-Industries-on-The-Inside-Line-Podcast,2748

EWS and World Cup DHers get forks serviced after a race weekend. what's the total ride time for a world cup DHer? 30-60 mins? EWS - if they do a lap on each stage for practice and then race laps, that's 2 hours total (not including climbing) on the long end?

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3/2/2020 7:47 AM

ajay.pate1 wrote:

I was riding at Windrock yesterday and some pros such as Richie were there. I overheard someone asking him if he was running 38s. I did not hear a yes or no, but more like a kinda/maybe. That was a yes for sure.

You're trying to be funny and being facetious, but it's actually true. The 'only' 2 mm means a different upper grinding machine/tooling, a separate kashima coating procedure (different parts and the prevention of them mixing with the 32, 34, 36 and 40 mm parts) and required a new tool to mould lowers and requires different seals. The bushings aren't much of a problem, the suppliers do tons of them and are quick to offer a custom solution. Interestingly, looking at the offerings of one of the supplier, standard internal diameters are 28, 30, 32, 35, 37 and 40. So FOX has to buy special order bushings for 2 (3) of their 4 (5) fork families, while RS can use, based off one supplier, off the shelf parts. I'm not sure how standard the seals are, but it's a similar story.

Now, for a company like FOX with their numbers (a vague guess, I don't know the actual numbers, but they can't really be small), a special order is not a problem. What is a problem is the process stability for said components, an off the shelf, produced in millions bushing will have tighter tolerances than a special order one. Same goes for the seals. And anything completely custom requires more instead of less testing in the actual product.

For them to go with a 38 mm model, they had to see some massive gains. Either in the stiffness, the stiffness to weight factor, or in the marketing potential of offering something new. In either case, it's not just 2 mm.

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3/2/2020 8:06 AM
Edited Date/Time: 3/2/2020 8:08 AM

Fred_Pop wrote:

Another yawn fork from Fox...a Dual crown version would be more interesting! Would be nice to see some real innovation from FOX and ROCKSHOX without them being scared of weight restrictions and with some proper service intervals eg +200hours.
I am way more interested in the new EXT fork coming out!

sspomer wrote:

re: service intervals - don't quote me, it's been a while, but IIRC, darren murphy of PUSH discusses how current recommneded service intervals are pretty darn long these days. he wishes recommended service intervals were actually shorter b/c of the abuse our suspension can go through at times.

i think it's in this inside line - https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/MTB-Suspension-Q-amp-A-Session-Darren-Murphy-of-PUSH-Industries-on-The-Inside-Line-Podcast,2748

EWS and World Cup DHers get forks serviced after a race weekend. what's the total ride time for a world cup DHer? 30-60 mins? EWS - if they do a lap on each stage for practice and then race laps, that's 2 hours total (not including climbing) on the long end?

Indeed he said that. And he said that current suspension products are insanely good and that MTB suspension products are, compared to other suspension products, hard to design. You have a wide range of requirements coming from the system weight side (large differences between lightest and heaviest riders, who can run the exact same product, with rental bikes even 5 minutes between one and another), you need to handle high speed events well and have a completely uncharacteristic low speed requirement (pedaling), the products "should" have a long service interval, be cheap and weigh nothing.

I think a lot of us are forgetting that what we are riding are basically race spec machines. Even the most average of us Joes. And we often get compared to motorbikes and their pricing, but the motorbikes in a similar price category are basically supermarket bikes of MTB. I think jaws would drop when we'd hear prices of race spec motorcycles (road, MX, enduro, doesn't really matter). And the servicing intervals for those compared to 'off the shelf' bikes are also probably a lot different.

EDIT: don't get me wrong, it could still be much better. But Darren's point of turning the bike upside down before going down and the fact that the best possible tune is worth less on a clapped out fork than a basic suspension service really put things into perspective. And remembering the state of my fork 2 years ago before and after service (complete overhaul, after ~200 hours since the last major service, around 50 hours for the lowers) would more or less confirm it.

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3/2/2020 8:07 AM

ajay.pate1 wrote:

I was riding at Windrock yesterday and some pros such as Richie were there. I overheard someone asking him if he was running 38s. I did not hear a yes or no, but more like a kinda/maybe. That was a yes for sure.

Primoz wrote:

You're trying to be funny and being facetious, but it's actually true. The 'only' 2 mm means a different upper grinding machine/tooling, a separate kashima coating procedure (different parts and the prevention of them mixing with the 32, 34, 36 and 40 mm parts) and required a new tool to mould lowers and requires different seals. The bushings aren't much of a problem, the suppliers do tons of them and are quick to offer a custom solution. Interestingly, looking at the offerings of one of the supplier, standard internal diameters are 28, 30, 32, 35, 37 and 40. So FOX has to buy special order bushings for 2 (3) of their 4 (5) fork families, while RS can use, based off one supplier, off the shelf parts. I'm not sure how standard the seals are, but it's a similar story.

Now, for a company like FOX with their numbers (a vague guess, I don't know the actual numbers, but they can't really be small), a special order is not a problem. What is a problem is the process stability for said components, an off the shelf, produced in millions bushing will have tighter tolerances than a special order one. Same goes for the seals. And anything completely custom requires more instead of less testing in the actual product.

For them to go with a 38 mm model, they had to see some massive gains. Either in the stiffness, the stiffness to weight factor, or in the marketing potential of offering something new. In either case, it's not just 2 mm.

Unless as you state, it’s in the marketing potential, in which case it’s just 2mm.

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3/2/2020 8:24 AM

That fully curved arch looks ugly imo

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3/2/2020 9:14 AM

Sonofbovril2 wrote:

Unless as you state, it’s in the marketing potential, in which case it’s just 2mm.

Seriously? After everything I've written, trying to make it clear it's more than counting to 2 mm further along a ruler, you answer with a post like that?

If I wasn't clear, unless there was some clear benefit (even if it is just marketing), no sane person would go through the task of changing all the things i described above, through spending all the money for the engineering and testing hours, if there wasn't at least one measurable benefit. 'Just 2 mm' is _NOT_ a benefit. Not in itself.

And before someone comes out saying that bike companies are not sane, they are. They are businesses that need to survive. In the end it's all about the money. If it's not worth it because of some factor, it won't be done. It sure as hell won't be done just for the sake of 2 mm.

If I'm mistaken, i obviously need a job in the industry, it seems like you can do basically whatever you want. But all the signals point towards bike industry jobs not being paid as well as competing industries (automotive for example).

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3/2/2020 9:54 AM

from an industry insider, RS is also making a 38mm stanchion sc fork. Will go up to 190mm.

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3/2/2020 10:00 AM

Can someone with an eBike help me understand this ad from ODI? Why in the hell do they need to advertise that grips are eBike compatible? They're grips....that go on the same handlebars found on regular and eBikes. Photo

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3/2/2020 10:12 AM

maybe you can't get electrocuted using their compound? silly

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3/2/2020 10:14 AM

mwolpin wrote:

Can someone with an eBike help me understand this ad from ODI? Why in the hell do they need to advertise that grips are eBike compatible? They're grips....that go on the same handlebars found on regular and eBikes. Photo

the shorter one is for the throttle duh

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3/2/2020 11:46 AM

ajay.pate1 wrote:

I was riding at Windrock yesterday and some pros such as Richie were there. I overheard someone asking him if he was running 38s. I did not hear a yes or no, but more like a kinda/maybe. That was a yes for sure.

Primoz wrote:

You're trying to be funny and being facetious, but it's actually true. The 'only' 2 mm means a different upper grinding machine/tooling, a separate kashima coating procedure (different parts and the prevention of them mixing with the 32, 34, 36 and 40 mm parts) and required a new tool to mould lowers and requires different seals. The bushings aren't much of a problem, the suppliers do tons of them and are quick to offer a custom solution. Interestingly, looking at the offerings of one of the supplier, standard internal diameters are 28, 30, 32, 35, 37 and 40. So FOX has to buy special order bushings for 2 (3) of their 4 (5) fork families, while RS can use, based off one supplier, off the shelf parts. I'm not sure how standard the seals are, but it's a similar story.

Now, for a company like FOX with their numbers (a vague guess, I don't know the actual numbers, but they can't really be small), a special order is not a problem. What is a problem is the process stability for said components, an off the shelf, produced in millions bushing will have tighter tolerances than a special order one. Same goes for the seals. And anything completely custom requires more instead of less testing in the actual product.

For them to go with a 38 mm model, they had to see some massive gains. Either in the stiffness, the stiffness to weight factor, or in the marketing potential of offering something new. In either case, it's not just 2 mm.

Sonofbovril2 wrote:

Unless as you state, it’s in the marketing potential, in which case it’s just 2mm.

You guys can argue the benefits/marketing of 2mm if you want, I'm more interested what's going on inside. Won't repeat what I was told, but I had a bounce on one last year and breakaway friction was ridiculously low. Like one finger on the bar was enough pressure to get it moving.

Going to assume it's a brand new fork all around, not just a new casting and the option for bigger stanchions. Fox aren't the only ones either.

Much as some people love to rag on them, ebikes might be partly responsible for what's on the way.

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3/2/2020 11:55 AM

NorCalNomad wrote:

That fully curved arch looks ugly imo

Form over function. If it results in a stiffer chassis then so what.

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3/2/2020 11:57 AM

mwolpin wrote:

Can someone with an eBike help me understand this ad from ODI? Why in the hell do they need to advertise that grips are eBike compatible? They're grips....that go on the same handlebars found on regular and eBikes. Photo

Same reason we see bags of dried fruit labeled vegan and gluten free. I had a good laugh with a product manager for a tire company a few years ago when I asked if he had anything new and his answer was 'an ebike specific hotpatch.' Same tires, but with a new label on the side for the euro ebike crowd.

Surely there must be a name for the phenomenon where people start to question a product not for what it is and has always been but for what it doesn't say on the label. The result being gluten free vegan raisins and ebike compatible grips or tire graphics. I guess we've only ourselves to blame.

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3/2/2020 11:57 AM

Primoz wrote:

You're trying to be funny and being facetious, but it's actually true. The 'only' 2 mm means a different upper grinding machine/tooling, a separate kashima coating procedure (different parts and the prevention of them mixing with the 32, 34, 36 and 40 mm parts) and required a new tool to mould lowers and requires different seals. The bushings aren't much of a problem, the suppliers do tons of them and are quick to offer a custom solution. Interestingly, looking at the offerings of one of the supplier, standard internal diameters are 28, 30, 32, 35, 37 and 40. So FOX has to buy special order bushings for 2 (3) of their 4 (5) fork families, while RS can use, based off one supplier, off the shelf parts. I'm not sure how standard the seals are, but it's a similar story.

Now, for a company like FOX with their numbers (a vague guess, I don't know the actual numbers, but they can't really be small), a special order is not a problem. What is a problem is the process stability for said components, an off the shelf, produced in millions bushing will have tighter tolerances than a special order one. Same goes for the seals. And anything completely custom requires more instead of less testing in the actual product.

For them to go with a 38 mm model, they had to see some massive gains. Either in the stiffness, the stiffness to weight factor, or in the marketing potential of offering something new. In either case, it's not just 2 mm.

Sonofbovril2 wrote:

Unless as you state, it’s in the marketing potential, in which case it’s just 2mm.

Primoz wrote:

Seriously? After everything I've written, trying to make it clear it's more than counting to 2 mm further along a ruler, you answer with a post like that?

If I wasn't clear, unless there was some clear benefit (even if it is just marketing), no sane person would go through the task of changing all the things i described above, through spending all the money for the engineering and testing hours, if there wasn't at least one measurable benefit. 'Just 2 mm' is _NOT_ a benefit. Not in itself.

And before someone comes out saying that bike companies are not sane, they are. They are businesses that need to survive. In the end it's all about the money. If it's not worth it because of some factor, it won't be done. It sure as hell won't be done just for the sake of 2 mm.

If I'm mistaken, i obviously need a job in the industry, it seems like you can do basically whatever you want. But all the signals point towards bike industry jobs not being paid as well as competing industries (automotive for example).

LOL. Vital is turning into pinkbike. The minute you start talking sense you get downvoted.

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