I have a kenvo sl and used to have a regular levo. Ive ridden a decoy a bunch too. weight and range matter to me. With an extender i have more range than a yt decoy. all the full size ebikes are too heavy for me, completely changes the ride. I ride with my friends who have full fat ebikes. Takes some extra legs to keep up...but so worth it on the downs.
Team robot, Context: I’m on my third ebike in 4 years but I see myself holding onto my current bike for a few more years as I’ve figured out my likes and am happy with my setup, plus advancements in ebike tech seem to be slowing down a bit. What would a new bike have to have for me to change? Losing a couple of pounds alone? No. Increased power? Probably not. Fancy transmission? No. However if all of those improvements were combined in the next version, I’d be tempted for sure.
Jason, I prioritize power over weight so it’s full size for me. I actually find the extra weight a real plus, but it takes a little getting used to it on jumps.
It’d be interesting to hear what direction the market is headed. Not sure if you can spill the beans on your discussions or we just have to wait and see.
Honest question for e-bike buyers: What's your long term ownership strategy when you buy an e-bike?
1. You're planning to sell it within a year and...
Honest question for e-bike buyers: What's your long term ownership strategy when you buy an e-bike?
1. You're planning to sell it within a year and buy a new one so you don't get stuck with expensive (or impossible) repair problems.
2. You're hoping the e-bike will still have a reasonable resale value at the end of a more normal MTB ownership timeframe, like three years.
3. You will ride this very expensive e-bike until you turn it into garbage. You're fully expecting to be the last owner and to eat the entire $6-15k purchase price when the motor or battery eventually becomes unrepairable, when parts are no longer available or firmware is no longer supported, or when repairs become cost prohibitive.
Something in between 2 & 3. I don't think geometry is going to change or anything, but I'd like to replace it with a bike with a better suspension platform and comparable or better motor/battery arrangement. Next gen Bullit would have my interest assuming they do Bosch or Brose.
Best advice on this entire thread. Just a big bottle of laxative night before you ride, problem solved. Or an all you can eat Mexican buffet. Drop that weight what ever it takes.
Suggestion: Spend an hour creating a simple Google Form survey that'll help you really uncover the answer to the underlying question you are aiming at.
The reality is its not one thing a user wants in an ebike. Its many things. Those things can be prioritized, for sure, but uncovering what the users want as an experience would be a worthwhile set of questions.
I also think its interesting to know where the user lives, how old the user is, how many bikes they own and how often they use their e bike.
the strategy is to wait until chris porter says these are not primitive machines , an unfinished development.. His radical pov has a point on the industry capitalizing while figuring it out (not unique to ebikes, of course).. but like anything going into uncharted territory, while at the same time technology is adapted during the development, the obsolescence on monday is everyday business.
Honest question for e-bike buyers: What's your long term ownership strategy when you buy an e-bike?
1. You're planning to sell it within a year and...
Honest question for e-bike buyers: What's your long term ownership strategy when you buy an e-bike?
1. You're planning to sell it within a year and buy a new one so you don't get stuck with expensive (or impossible) repair problems.
2. You're hoping the e-bike will still have a reasonable resale value at the end of a more normal MTB ownership timeframe, like three years.
3. You will ride this very expensive e-bike until you turn it into garbage. You're fully expecting to be the last owner and to eat the entire $6-15k purchase price when the motor or battery eventually becomes unrepairable, when parts are no longer available or firmware is no longer supported, or when repairs become cost prohibitive.
Following on from this, and in response to the OP, I guess it would make sense if there was a standard motor mount and battery interface. That way you could fit a new motor or battery into an old frame, and the used value wouldn't diminish. You could also upgrade like you can with any other component. Like with Shigura brakes etc., the optimum might be a Bosch motor, Shimano battery, and the new Cascade Components OS!
Wouldn't this also improve new sales? If my bike was worth more second-hand, I would be looking to sell and buy new (just like with normal bikes). As it is, I will run mine into the ground, unless a real game changer comes along.
Now you can say this will never happen, but it would only take a couple of bike and motor manufacturer's to get on board, and everyone else would have to follow, or get left behind.
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if they start selling that option on the new 2.0. Did a demo ride with a little over 3k of vert and almost 15 miles and rolled in on an almost dead battery without even having a range extender in 90 min which is double what we can do on a normal day so basically rode every DH section twice. I don’t believe I got lower than 6th gear so that would set me up perfectly to use a DH mini block cassette and derailleur. I’m a lighter dude and don’t mind pedaling just want to get to the top faster so I can get more DH laps in. Definitely wasn’t working as hard as I do on a normal ride and like I said got double the DH in. Even turned off the motor on the DH since our trails are either straight up or down, no flat sections so our average speed is 25mph on a 1-2 min DH section, topping out around 35-40mph don’t even let the motor engage. Shaves over a pound off the bike and I would think is stronger than even the new SRAM Transmission because it doesn’t hang so low. Am I crazy to think this would work?
Range dictated my ride intent more than anything else.
I tuned my bike to have less chance to break down in the middle of no where, since I planned to simply explore as long as I had battery power in reserve. Battery reserves mattered even more than food/water and other supplies when it came to deciding if I wanted to explore deeper or not.
I can see that my sales pitch needs more work with the focus group. Seriously though, there’s a possibility that my ‘92 Kawasaki KX 125 i haven’t seen since 1999 is still running, somewhere. The phone i’m typing this on however is 100% certain near future E-waste. So leaving aside the ‘i get 2X as many laps on my ebike’ trail impact side of the argument, what’s the plan for these things not being E-waste? And before you spend all your daily allowance of upvotes on the right to repair post above, what about how the entire legal hypothesis that the class 1 ebike exists within is that manufacturers and retailers take responsibility for putting a very narrow range of hardware and software combinations together so the bikes operate within the bounds of class 1. Every individual end user is going to simultaneously be empowered to repair and maintain these systems at a deep level and be on the honor system to comply w/ class 1? The wild west might seem fun at first, but by its nature it doesn’t last long, right?
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if...
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if they start selling that option on the new 2.0. Did a demo ride with a little over 3k of vert and almost 15 miles and rolled in on an almost dead battery without even having a range extender in 90 min which is double what we can do on a normal day so basically rode every DH section twice. I don’t believe I got lower than 6th gear so that would set me up perfectly to use a DH mini block cassette and derailleur. I’m a lighter dude and don’t mind pedaling just want to get to the top faster so I can get more DH laps in. Definitely wasn’t working as hard as I do on a normal ride and like I said got double the DH in. Even turned off the motor on the DH since our trails are either straight up or down, no flat sections so our average speed is 25mph on a 1-2 min DH section, topping out around 35-40mph don’t even let the motor engage. Shaves over a pound off the bike and I would think is stronger than even the new SRAM Transmission because it doesn’t hang so low. Am I crazy to think this would work?
sure, if you're self shuttling then you don't need those tall gears but if you're e-enduroing then they're needed. I climb some seriously steep trails on my ebike and spend a lot of time on my tallest gears,
Why wasn’t one of the options reliability, serviceability, warranty and longevity on there.
the main thing I want from an ebike is that it would die on me, but if it does then the company will sort it out quickly.
I ride an ebike purely for the joy of power, accessibility and downhill prowess. I don’t have an interest or need in riding one that feels lightweight like a my Amish bikes. Those bikes are for different days on the trails. The extra weight, slacker geo and power on my Turbo Levo make the bike more exciting. I just did a 42 mile ride with almost 6k feet in elevation and ripped the downhills. It’s great that there are options out there for everyone to choose. I choose the ebike as a toy and/or recovery tool so I say go big on power and range and just enjoy the ride! Oh and the killer cardio workout if you’re hustling! My HR hit 187 a few times last week. Braaaap!
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if...
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if they start selling that option on the new 2.0. Did a demo ride with a little over 3k of vert and almost 15 miles and rolled in on an almost dead battery without even having a range extender in 90 min which is double what we can do on a normal day so basically rode every DH section twice. I don’t believe I got lower than 6th gear so that would set me up perfectly to use a DH mini block cassette and derailleur. I’m a lighter dude and don’t mind pedaling just want to get to the top faster so I can get more DH laps in. Definitely wasn’t working as hard as I do on a normal ride and like I said got double the DH in. Even turned off the motor on the DH since our trails are either straight up or down, no flat sections so our average speed is 25mph on a 1-2 min DH section, topping out around 35-40mph don’t even let the motor engage. Shaves over a pound off the bike and I would think is stronger than even the new SRAM Transmission because it doesn’t hang so low. Am I crazy to think this would work?
Agree, I ride a full fat mostly in turbo. I replaced the original 12s with 11s SRAM 10-42 based drivetrain, I almost never use the 42 or the 10 speed cog. 11s is way cheaper to replace, has been very reliable for me (no broken derailleurs or chains in 20,000km of riding) and saves me ~200g in unsprung weight.
I would be tempted to go t-type AXS if they were compatible with 11s, I saw a bunch at the last event I went to and people loved them.
Whatever other features it has i just want to see an extra $1000 added at the point of sale, $500 to the purchaser’s local trails and...
Whatever other features it has i just want to see an extra $1000 added at the point of sale, $500 to the purchaser’s local trails and $500 to the eventual disposal of the worn parts and environmental remediation. ‘Internalize externalities.’
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if...
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if they start selling that option on the new 2.0. Did a demo ride with a little over 3k of vert and almost 15 miles and rolled in on an almost dead battery without even having a range extender in 90 min which is double what we can do on a normal day so basically rode every DH section twice. I don’t believe I got lower than 6th gear so that would set me up perfectly to use a DH mini block cassette and derailleur. I’m a lighter dude and don’t mind pedaling just want to get to the top faster so I can get more DH laps in. Definitely wasn’t working as hard as I do on a normal ride and like I said got double the DH in. Even turned off the motor on the DH since our trails are either straight up or down, no flat sections so our average speed is 25mph on a 1-2 min DH section, topping out around 35-40mph don’t even let the motor engage. Shaves over a pound off the bike and I would think is stronger than even the new SRAM Transmission because it doesn’t hang so low. Am I crazy to think this would work?
Agree, I ride a full fat mostly in turbo. I replaced the original 12s with 11s SRAM 10-42 based drivetrain, I almost never use the 42...
Agree, I ride a full fat mostly in turbo. I replaced the original 12s with 11s SRAM 10-42 based drivetrain, I almost never use the 42 or the 10 speed cog. 11s is way cheaper to replace, has been very reliable for me (no broken derailleurs or chains in 20,000km of riding) and saves me ~200g in unsprung weight.
I would be tempted to go t-type AXS if they were compatible with 11s, I saw a bunch at the last event I went to and people loved them.
Me too, I only use the bottom of the cassette and am running 11sp.
My main concern is range. I only have an ebike now because I use it to tow my 11year old son. He's fast on the way down but he isn't into hammering on the way up for two hours. Also I have two other kids at home and with the ebike I can do the same rides in half the time. I don't mind the weight at all. I spent many years on 50lb dh bikes back in the day. I was hitting some sizeable dirt jumps on it yesterday, once you ride them for awhile it just feels normal.
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if...
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if they start selling that option on the new 2.0. Did a demo ride with a little over 3k of vert and almost 15 miles and rolled in on an almost dead battery without even having a range extender in 90 min which is double what we can do on a normal day so basically rode every DH section twice. I don’t believe I got lower than 6th gear so that would set me up perfectly to use a DH mini block cassette and derailleur. I’m a lighter dude and don’t mind pedaling just want to get to the top faster so I can get more DH laps in. Definitely wasn’t working as hard as I do on a normal ride and like I said got double the DH in. Even turned off the motor on the DH since our trails are either straight up or down, no flat sections so our average speed is 25mph on a 1-2 min DH section, topping out around 35-40mph don’t even let the motor engage. Shaves over a pound off the bike and I would think is stronger than even the new SRAM Transmission because it doesn’t hang so low. Am I crazy to think this would work?
Agree, I ride a full fat mostly in turbo. I replaced the original 12s with 11s SRAM 10-42 based drivetrain, I almost never use the 42...
Agree, I ride a full fat mostly in turbo. I replaced the original 12s with 11s SRAM 10-42 based drivetrain, I almost never use the 42 or the 10 speed cog. 11s is way cheaper to replace, has been very reliable for me (no broken derailleurs or chains in 20,000km of riding) and saves me ~200g in unsprung weight.
I would be tempted to go t-type AXS if they were compatible with 11s, I saw a bunch at the last event I went to and people loved them.
Me too, I only use the bottom of the cassette and am running 11sp.
My main concern is range. I only have an ebike now because...
Me too, I only use the bottom of the cassette and am running 11sp.
My main concern is range. I only have an ebike now because I use it to tow my 11year old son. He's fast on the way down but he isn't into hammering on the way up for two hours. Also I have two other kids at home and with the ebike I can do the same rides in half the time. I don't mind the weight at all. I spent many years on 50lb dh bikes back in the day. I was hitting some sizeable dirt jumps on it yesterday, once you ride them for awhile it just feels normal.
I have two tow ropes, one tows the eldest, and he toes the youngest. Like you say, it opens up descending that they otherwise wouldn't access.
Range dictated my ride intent more than anything else.
I tuned my bike to have less chance to break down in the middle of no where...
Range dictated my ride intent more than anything else.
I tuned my bike to have less chance to break down in the middle of no where, since I planned to simply explore as long as I had battery power in reserve. Battery reserves mattered even more than food/water and other supplies when it came to deciding if I wanted to explore deeper or not.
This is why I think the low powered ebike genre is a winner. One time I busted a spoke and so I just swapped the rear wheel from my normal bike but forgot to swap the magnetic sensor in the disc rotor. I showed up at the trailhead with my buddy from out of town but no working ebike, so I pedaled that sucker up a 3,000 foot climb anyways with the battery and motor in place. I didn't set any PRs but it wasn't really that much harder than a comparable enduro bike which would have been 8ish pounds lighter than the 42 pound ebike. This past month I've been doing the Lion Diet, and I'm 12 pounds lighter myself right now than when I did that assist-less climb in September.
Its a frustrating compromise for me. Full power ebikes are fun, but being on a 42 pound or lighter ebike feels the same as a natural...
Its a frustrating compromise for me. Full power ebikes are fun, but being on a 42 pound or lighter ebike feels the same as a natural mountain bike on the descents. Descending on a fat pig isn't nearly as fun as one of these lighter ebikes.
That being said, my Bafang m820 build with a 410wh battery (42 pounds) can sustain 580 watts, which if you do the math gives you less than 40 min of climbing in Boost mode before you hit 20% when it defaults back to eco mode. I can do about a 2,000 foot climb in the 2nd highest mode (S+, about 390 watts) before hitting 20%, and to do my normal 3,000 foot loop I have to keep it in the lower modes, under 300 watts of output. I do this same loop on my natural bikes too, so the only benefit of the ebike is keeping up with my more fit friends or if I have time constraints (job, 4 kids, another coming any day now).
Hey Ham, Your Bafang build sounds really interesting. I've mostly seen their hub motors, but recently came across their mid-drive motor on the new Vitus MTBs, and I dug the promised serviceability and lower entry cost, although that Vitus is somewhat of a tank. From what you're describing though, it sounds like you built yours up from scratch, using an open mold frame and ended up with a pretty light overall package. Do you have any threads where I can learn more about your build, or any other info/links you can share? I'm curious how all of that works with speccing out the motor, battery, controllers, etc...as well as ensuring everything is compatible with the frame you ordered. Also, I'm curious about if you've noticed if the Bafang has any of the dreaded "rattle" that people complain about with other e-bike motors (particularly the new Shimano ones it seems) when the chain gets tugged by the suspension movement when descending. Anyway, thanks in advance for any further info...this sounds like a pretty interesting option that I hadn't come across previously!
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if...
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if they start selling that option on the new 2.0. Did a demo ride with a little over 3k of vert and almost 15 miles and rolled in on an almost dead battery without even having a range extender in 90 min which is double what we can do on a normal day so basically rode every DH section twice. I don’t believe I got lower than 6th gear so that would set me up perfectly to use a DH mini block cassette and derailleur. I’m a lighter dude and don’t mind pedaling just want to get to the top faster so I can get more DH laps in. Definitely wasn’t working as hard as I do on a normal ride and like I said got double the DH in. Even turned off the motor on the DH since our trails are either straight up or down, no flat sections so our average speed is 25mph on a 1-2 min DH section, topping out around 35-40mph don’t even let the motor engage. Shaves over a pound off the bike and I would think is stronger than even the new SRAM Transmission because it doesn’t hang so low. Am I crazy to think this would work?
Range dictated my ride intent more than anything else.
I tuned my bike to have less chance to break down in the middle of no where...
Range dictated my ride intent more than anything else.
I tuned my bike to have less chance to break down in the middle of no where, since I planned to simply explore as long as I had battery power in reserve. Battery reserves mattered even more than food/water and other supplies when it came to deciding if I wanted to explore deeper or not.
This is why I think the low powered ebike genre is a winner. One time I busted a spoke and so I just swapped the rear...
This is why I think the low powered ebike genre is a winner. One time I busted a spoke and so I just swapped the rear wheel from my normal bike but forgot to swap the magnetic sensor in the disc rotor. I showed up at the trailhead with my buddy from out of town but no working ebike, so I pedaled that sucker up a 3,000 foot climb anyways with the battery and motor in place. I didn't set any PRs but it wasn't really that much harder than a comparable enduro bike which would have been 8ish pounds lighter than the 42 pound ebike. This past month I've been doing the Lion Diet, and I'm 12 pounds lighter myself right now than when I did that assist-less climb in September.
Spare rotor magnet became a part of the kit last month. Friend did exactly what you did—surprisingly his bike did go into a limp mode (3mph) that salvaged a lap out of the day…
Its a frustrating compromise for me. Full power ebikes are fun, but being on a 42 pound or lighter ebike feels the same as a natural...
Its a frustrating compromise for me. Full power ebikes are fun, but being on a 42 pound or lighter ebike feels the same as a natural mountain bike on the descents. Descending on a fat pig isn't nearly as fun as one of these lighter ebikes.
That being said, my Bafang m820 build with a 410wh battery (42 pounds) can sustain 580 watts, which if you do the math gives you less than 40 min of climbing in Boost mode before you hit 20% when it defaults back to eco mode. I can do about a 2,000 foot climb in the 2nd highest mode (S+, about 390 watts) before hitting 20%, and to do my normal 3,000 foot loop I have to keep it in the lower modes, under 300 watts of output. I do this same loop on my natural bikes too, so the only benefit of the ebike is keeping up with my more fit friends or if I have time constraints (job, 4 kids, another coming any day now).
Hey Ham, Your Bafang build sounds really interesting. I've mostly seen their hub motors, but recently came across their mid-drive motor on the new Vitus MTBs...
Hey Ham, Your Bafang build sounds really interesting. I've mostly seen their hub motors, but recently came across their mid-drive motor on the new Vitus MTBs, and I dug the promised serviceability and lower entry cost, although that Vitus is somewhat of a tank. From what you're describing though, it sounds like you built yours up from scratch, using an open mold frame and ended up with a pretty light overall package. Do you have any threads where I can learn more about your build, or any other info/links you can share? I'm curious how all of that works with speccing out the motor, battery, controllers, etc...as well as ensuring everything is compatible with the frame you ordered. Also, I'm curious about if you've noticed if the Bafang has any of the dreaded "rattle" that people complain about with other e-bike motors (particularly the new Shimano ones it seems) when the chain gets tugged by the suspension movement when descending. Anyway, thanks in advance for any further info...this sounds like a pretty interesting option that I hadn't come across previously!
So I have two frames, one is a chinese open mold, and boy have those come a long way in the last few years. Geometry is close enough, and they seem well built. However, its still chinese open mold, so internal headset routing (I can't express how much I hate this now that I own one), no UDH, terrible internal cable routing, bolts keep coming loose even with locktite, not enough rear shock clearance, etc. However, when its working it rides excellent. Here is a good place to start on building your own:
I'm trying to start a small titanium bike company, and this new prototype (I can't show pics yet) has a removable bottom bracket so you can run a 100% acoustic bike with no motor or battery, but also fit a 410wh battery inside the downtube completely (50mm diameter downtube, nice and slim) and also put the m820 motor in there. The frame-only with bottom bracket is more portly than I want at 7 pounds 1 oz, but its still a prototype so I'm hoping to shave off a half pound.
Yes, I'm aware of the pinion design. Looks like the best solution for full power ebikes.
My welder is in jail, but if he gets out any time soon or I find another decent local welder I want to try a lightweight motor (Bafang m820 is excellent and the only one you can buy on its own anyways) combined with a Kindernay hub, but mount the hub gear right above the motor in the mid-frame. The motor chainring runs to the hub gear sprocket, then another chain or belt runs from the outer shell of the hub gear to the rear hub.
This would give a mid-high pivot placement, unsprung mass for all gears, no chain kickback, etc.
UPDATE yes I'm aware this is what Zerode did back in the day with their glorious G1/G2
Whatever other features it has i just want to see an extra $1000 added at the point of sale, $500 to the purchaser’s local trails and...
Whatever other features it has i just want to see an extra $1000 added at the point of sale, $500 to the purchaser’s local trails and $500 to the eventual disposal of the worn parts and environmental remediation. ‘Internalize externalities.’
I’m working on the justification (so yeah you’re right!).
There’s a popular and kind of babyish view of economics that simplifies every transaction to two consenting parties making an exchange and it’s really none of anyone else’s biz. My post references the fact observed by non-baby economists that there are often other parties roped into the transaction — not by some highfalutin idea like the public good or democracy — but by directly bearing some of the costs of the transaction. Externality. Shunting some of these costs onto others not in the hypothetical transaction dyad gives the appearance that goods or services are cheaper (to the buyer) or more profitable (to the seller) than they really are. The remedy is to get buyers to first understand and, if they still want to, pay the true cost of the good or service instead of essentially stealing part of it from the person or people forced to pick up the difference. It’s the alternative to a world full if illegally dumped trash or a world full of cameras and cops monitoring the spots some people choose to dump trash. Pay your share at the point of sale and the disposal is covered on the day that pos flatscreen tv stops lighting up.
Honest question for e-bike buyers: What's your long term ownership strategy when you buy an e-bike?
1. You're planning to sell it within a year and...
Honest question for e-bike buyers: What's your long term ownership strategy when you buy an e-bike?
1. You're planning to sell it within a year and buy a new one so you don't get stuck with expensive (or impossible) repair problems.
2. You're hoping the e-bike will still have a reasonable resale value at the end of a more normal MTB ownership timeframe, like three years.
3. You will ride this very expensive e-bike until you turn it into garbage. You're fully expecting to be the last owner and to eat the entire $6-15k purchase price when the motor or battery eventually becomes unrepairable, when parts are no longer available or firmware is no longer supported, or when repairs become cost prohibitive.
Following on from this, and in response to the OP, I guess it would make sense if there was a standard motor mount and battery interface...
Following on from this, and in response to the OP, I guess it would make sense if there was a standard motor mount and battery interface. That way you could fit a new motor or battery into an old frame, and the used value wouldn't diminish. You could also upgrade like you can with any other component. Like with Shigura brakes etc., the optimum might be a Bosch motor, Shimano battery, and the new Cascade Components OS!
Wouldn't this also improve new sales? If my bike was worth more second-hand, I would be looking to sell and buy new (just like with normal bikes). As it is, I will run mine into the ground, unless a real game changer comes along.
Now you can say this will never happen, but it would only take a couple of bike and motor manufacturer's to get on board, and everyone else would have to follow, or get left behind.
I’m working on the justification (so yeah you’re right!).
There’s a popular and kind of babyish view of economics that simplifies every transaction to two consenting...
I’m working on the justification (so yeah you’re right!).
There’s a popular and kind of babyish view of economics that simplifies every transaction to two consenting parties making an exchange and it’s really none of anyone else’s biz. My post references the fact observed by non-baby economists that there are often other parties roped into the transaction — not by some highfalutin idea like the public good or democracy — but by directly bearing some of the costs of the transaction. Externality. Shunting some of these costs onto others not in the hypothetical transaction dyad gives the appearance that goods or services are cheaper (to the buyer) or more profitable (to the seller) than they really are. The remedy is to get buyers to first understand and, if they still want to, pay the true cost of the good or service instead of essentially stealing part of it from the person or people forced to pick up the difference. It’s the alternative to a world full if illegally dumped trash or a world full of cameras and cops monitoring the spots some people choose to dump trash. Pay your share at the point of sale and the disposal is covered on the day that pos flatscreen tv stops lighting up.
Cool. When your team (ai?) comes up with all the numbers, let’s have a look at em. I am fully on board with revealing the true costs of all our lifestyles and paying our share. I do take issue with the suggestion that you’ll be tacking it only onto eebs. That seems presumptuous. Am I fully goo goo gaga? It’d make more sense to gps track all bikes, measure rider / bike weights daily, knob height index, remote skid alert, parking spot occupancy rates, all sorts of bullshit…endless fractal spiral of factors. Nah.
I was so embarrassed when I realized my Econ classes didn’t agree on the answers—just helped any dingdong tell their story. I bet you and I value similar things. But I’ll never forget the professor I had who made the case, with a straight face, that the utility she derived from the neato geometric patterns left by clearcuts should be factored in when calculating the cost of logging. She liked the shapes, he said. A lot. Maybe enough to make up for killing the last dodo or whatever.
That’s when I realized I’d been duped.
I have a kenvo sl and used to have a regular levo. Ive ridden a decoy a bunch too. weight and range matter to me. With an extender i have more range than a yt decoy. all the full size ebikes are too heavy for me, completely changes the ride. I ride with my friends who have full fat ebikes. Takes some extra legs to keep up...but so worth it on the downs.
Team robot, Context: I’m on my third ebike in 4 years but I see myself holding onto my current bike for a few more years as I’ve figured out my likes and am happy with my setup, plus advancements in ebike tech seem to be slowing down a bit. What would a new bike have to have for me to change? Losing a couple of pounds alone? No. Increased power? Probably not. Fancy transmission? No. However if all of those improvements were combined in the next version, I’d be tempted for sure.
Jason, I prioritize power over weight so it’s full size for me. I actually find the extra weight a real plus, but it takes a little getting used to it on jumps.
It’d be interesting to hear what direction the market is headed. Not sure if you can spill the beans on your discussions or we just have to wait and see.
Something in between 2 & 3. I don't think geometry is going to change or anything, but I'd like to replace it with a bike with a better suspension platform and comparable or better motor/battery arrangement. Next gen Bullit would have my interest assuming they do Bosch or Brose.
Best advice on this entire thread. Just a big bottle of laxative night before you ride, problem solved. Or an all you can eat Mexican buffet. Drop that weight what ever it takes.
Suggestion: Spend an hour creating a simple Google Form survey that'll help you really uncover the answer to the underlying question you are aiming at.
The reality is its not one thing a user wants in an ebike. Its many things. Those things can be prioritized, for sure, but uncovering what the users want as an experience would be a worthwhile set of questions.
I also think its interesting to know where the user lives, how old the user is, how many bikes they own and how often they use their e bike.
the strategy is to wait until chris porter says these are not primitive machines , an unfinished development.. His radical pov has a point on the industry capitalizing while figuring it out (not unique to ebikes, of course).. but like anything going into uncharted territory, while at the same time technology is adapted during the development, the obsolescence on monday is everyday business.
Following on from this, and in response to the OP, I guess it would make sense if there was a standard motor mount and battery interface. That way you could fit a new motor or battery into an old frame, and the used value wouldn't diminish. You could also upgrade like you can with any other component. Like with Shigura brakes etc., the optimum might be a Bosch motor, Shimano battery, and the new Cascade Components OS!
Wouldn't this also improve new sales? If my bike was worth more second-hand, I would be looking to sell and buy new (just like with normal bikes). As it is, I will run mine into the ground, unless a real game changer comes along.
Now you can say this will never happen, but it would only take a couple of bike and motor manufacturer's to get on board, and everyone else would have to follow, or get left behind.
My question is why do they keep putting dinner plate cassettes on these e-bikes? I’m looking at a Levo SL right now, hopefully a frameset if they start selling that option on the new 2.0. Did a demo ride with a little over 3k of vert and almost 15 miles and rolled in on an almost dead battery without even having a range extender in 90 min which is double what we can do on a normal day so basically rode every DH section twice. I don’t believe I got lower than 6th gear so that would set me up perfectly to use a DH mini block cassette and derailleur. I’m a lighter dude and don’t mind pedaling just want to get to the top faster so I can get more DH laps in. Definitely wasn’t working as hard as I do on a normal ride and like I said got double the DH in. Even turned off the motor on the DH since our trails are either straight up or down, no flat sections so our average speed is 25mph on a 1-2 min DH section, topping out around 35-40mph don’t even let the motor engage. Shaves over a pound off the bike and I would think is stronger than even the new SRAM Transmission because it doesn’t hang so low. Am I crazy to think this would work?
Range dictated my ride intent more than anything else.
I tuned my bike to have less chance to break down in the middle of no where, since I planned to simply explore as long as I had battery power in reserve. Battery reserves mattered even more than food/water and other supplies when it came to deciding if I wanted to explore deeper or not.
I can see that my sales pitch needs more work with the focus group. Seriously though, there’s a possibility that my ‘92 Kawasaki KX 125 i haven’t seen since 1999 is still running, somewhere. The phone i’m typing this on however is 100% certain near future E-waste. So leaving aside the ‘i get 2X as many laps on my ebike’ trail impact side of the argument, what’s the plan for these things not being E-waste? And before you spend all your daily allowance of upvotes on the right to repair post above, what about how the entire legal hypothesis that the class 1 ebike exists within is that manufacturers and retailers take responsibility for putting a very narrow range of hardware and software combinations together so the bikes operate within the bounds of class 1. Every individual end user is going to simultaneously be empowered to repair and maintain these systems at a deep level and be on the honor system to comply w/ class 1? The wild west might seem fun at first, but by its nature it doesn’t last long, right?
sure, if you're self shuttling then you don't need those tall gears but if you're e-enduroing then they're needed. I climb some seriously steep trails on my ebike and spend a lot of time on my tallest gears,
Why wasn’t one of the options reliability, serviceability, warranty and longevity on there.
the main thing I want from an ebike is that it would die on me, but if it does then the company will sort it out quickly.
I ride an ebike purely for the joy of power, accessibility and downhill prowess. I don’t have an interest or need in riding one that feels lightweight like a my Amish bikes. Those bikes are for different days on the trails. The extra weight, slacker geo and power on my Turbo Levo make the bike more exciting. I just did a 42 mile ride with almost 6k feet in elevation and ripped the downhills. It’s great that there are options out there for everyone to choose. I choose the ebike as a toy and/or recovery tool so I say go big on power and range and just enjoy the ride! Oh and the killer cardio workout if you’re hustling! My HR hit 187 a few times last week. Braaaap!
Agree, I ride a full fat mostly in turbo. I replaced the original 12s with 11s SRAM 10-42 based drivetrain, I almost never use the 42 or the 10 speed cog. 11s is way cheaper to replace, has been very reliable for me (no broken derailleurs or chains in 20,000km of riding) and saves me ~200g in unsprung weight.
I would be tempted to go t-type AXS if they were compatible with 11s, I saw a bunch at the last event I went to and people loved them.
…not to mention impossible to justify.
Me too, I only use the bottom of the cassette and am running 11sp.
My main concern is range. I only have an ebike now because I use it to tow my 11year old son. He's fast on the way down but he isn't into hammering on the way up for two hours. Also I have two other kids at home and with the ebike I can do the same rides in half the time. I don't mind the weight at all. I spent many years on 50lb dh bikes back in the day. I was hitting some sizeable dirt jumps on it yesterday, once you ride them for awhile it just feels normal.
I have two tow ropes, one tows the eldest, and he toes the youngest. Like you say, it opens up descending that they otherwise wouldn't access.
This is why I think the low powered ebike genre is a winner. One time I busted a spoke and so I just swapped the rear wheel from my normal bike but forgot to swap the magnetic sensor in the disc rotor. I showed up at the trailhead with my buddy from out of town but no working ebike, so I pedaled that sucker up a 3,000 foot climb anyways with the battery and motor in place. I didn't set any PRs but it wasn't really that much harder than a comparable enduro bike which would have been 8ish pounds lighter than the 42 pound ebike. This past month I've been doing the Lion Diet, and I'm 12 pounds lighter myself right now than when I did that assist-less climb in September.
Hey Ham, Your Bafang build sounds really interesting. I've mostly seen their hub motors, but recently came across their mid-drive motor on the new Vitus MTBs, and I dug the promised serviceability and lower entry cost, although that Vitus is somewhat of a tank. From what you're describing though, it sounds like you built yours up from scratch, using an open mold frame and ended up with a pretty light overall package. Do you have any threads where I can learn more about your build, or any other info/links you can share? I'm curious how all of that works with speccing out the motor, battery, controllers, etc...as well as ensuring everything is compatible with the frame you ordered. Also, I'm curious about if you've noticed if the Bafang has any of the dreaded "rattle" that people complain about with other e-bike motors (particularly the new Shimano ones it seems) when the chain gets tugged by the suspension movement when descending. Anyway, thanks in advance for any further info...this sounds like a pretty interesting option that I hadn't come across previously!
I spend time in my lowest gear every ride.
Spare rotor magnet became a part of the kit last month. Friend did exactly what you did—surprisingly his bike did go into a limp mode (3mph) that salvaged a lap out of the day…
So I have two frames, one is a chinese open mold, and boy have those come a long way in the last few years. Geometry is close enough, and they seem well built. However, its still chinese open mold, so internal headset routing (I can't express how much I hate this now that I own one), no UDH, terrible internal cable routing, bolts keep coming loose even with locktite, not enough rear shock clearance, etc. However, when its working it rides excellent. Here is a good place to start on building your own:
https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/m820-bafang-cef50-frame-lightweight…
My other frame is a ebike-version of this prototype in titanium:
https://www.vitalmtb.com/community/hamncheez2003,27159/setup,44451
I'm trying to start a small titanium bike company, and this new prototype (I can't show pics yet) has a removable bottom bracket so you can run a 100% acoustic bike with no motor or battery, but also fit a 410wh battery inside the downtube completely (50mm diameter downtube, nice and slim) and also put the m820 motor in there. The frame-only with bottom bracket is more portly than I want at 7 pounds 1 oz, but its still a prototype so I'm hoping to shave off a half pound.
As I said in the other thread, waiting for an integrated gearbox + motor. Then I would consider one.
Why wait?
https://www.nicolai-bicycles.com/gt1-eboxx-e14-new-stock-en
Oh the weight, thats why (70 pounds)
That has got the gears in the rear hub. This is what I'm waiting for (from a bigger brand), with a combined gearbox and motor:
https://www.simplon.com/en/Bikes/E-Mountain-Bikes/Rapcon-Pmax-Pinion_b_674047
Yes, I'm aware of the pinion design. Looks like the best solution for full power ebikes.
My welder is in jail, but if he gets out any time soon or I find another decent local welder I want to try a lightweight motor (Bafang m820 is excellent and the only one you can buy on its own anyways) combined with a Kindernay hub, but mount the hub gear right above the motor in the mid-frame. The motor chainring runs to the hub gear sprocket, then another chain or belt runs from the outer shell of the hub gear to the rear hub.
This would give a mid-high pivot placement, unsprung mass for all gears, no chain kickback, etc.
UPDATE yes I'm aware this is what Zerode did back in the day with their glorious G1/G2
I’m working on the justification (so yeah you’re right!).
There’s a popular and kind of babyish view of economics that simplifies every transaction to two consenting parties making an exchange and it’s really none of anyone else’s biz. My post references the fact observed by non-baby economists that there are often other parties roped into the transaction — not by some highfalutin idea like the public good or democracy — but by directly bearing some of the costs of the transaction. Externality. Shunting some of these costs onto others not in the hypothetical transaction dyad gives the appearance that goods or services are cheaper (to the buyer) or more profitable (to the seller) than they really are. The remedy is to get buyers to first understand and, if they still want to, pay the true cost of the good or service instead of essentially stealing part of it from the person or people forced to pick up the difference. It’s the alternative to a world full if illegally dumped trash or a world full of cameras and cops monitoring the spots some people choose to dump trash. Pay your share at the point of sale and the disposal is covered on the day that pos flatscreen tv stops lighting up.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/intra-drives-combined-motor-and-gearbox-f…
Cool. When your team (ai?) comes up with all the numbers, let’s have a look at em. I am fully on board with revealing the true costs of all our lifestyles and paying our share. I do take issue with the suggestion that you’ll be tacking it only onto eebs. That seems presumptuous. Am I fully goo goo gaga? It’d make more sense to gps track all bikes, measure rider / bike weights daily, knob height index, remote skid alert, parking spot occupancy rates, all sorts of bullshit…endless fractal spiral of factors. Nah.
I was so embarrassed when I realized my Econ classes didn’t agree on the answers—just helped any dingdong tell their story. I bet you and I value similar things. But I’ll never forget the professor I had who made the case, with a straight face, that the utility she derived from the neato geometric patterns left by clearcuts should be factored in when calculating the cost of logging. She liked the shapes, he said. A lot. Maybe enough to make up for killing the last dodo or whatever.
That’s when I realized I’d been duped.
Done. Pole Voima or Onni with a Bosch race motor.
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