The thing that people miss about the lockout/FA efficiency thing is that it's not just about efficiency but power production. When the bike is firmer, you...
The thing that people miss about the lockout/FA efficiency thing is that it's not just about efficiency but power production. When the bike is firmer, you have more to push AGAINST. Most people do power tests on their road bikes because they know it will boost their numbers. The longer the interval, the easier it is to do on the MTB vs the road bike, but those shorter harder efforts are generally considered easier on the road bike. Most people I know do vo2 max intervals on their road bike basically for vanity. But there is an argument it's actually a good idea to do sprint intervals that way, and not squish around.
Yes, 100% antisquat should prevent all pedal bob induced by changes in forward momentum, however it has no effect on changes in rider CG. The reason your bike bobs like crazy when you pedal out of the saddle (if you don't work to keep your mass very still, which is possible, but I think harder) is because your CG is moving up and down. You are literally bouncing on the pedals, and your suspension is responding to that as you would expect. However when you lock the bike out more of that energy gets converted to forward momentum. Like on a road bike, you can still feel the frame flex a bit, and the tires compress and whatnot (which is why roadies got obsessed with like 300psi tire pressures) but it's pretty minimal power loss.
I think TEAMROBOT probably spends too much time with enduro and DH bros 😂 Riding a big squishy bike without lockout... yeah it doesn't pedal for shit out of the saddle so you get trained to not do that. Every XC rider I know spends plenty of time out of the saddle, and you intuitively know you ought to do some of your training like that. It's super rare to find a rider in an XC race who is punching out of corners and over little rises or ledges strictly in the saddle. I know this forum is mostly gravity focused, but keep in mind XC racing and riding is a HUGE part of mtb.
There is a reason why FA has such huge uptake in XC. The number of corners you pedal hard out of is insane, the people I've talked to run bias +2 (as do I) which causes it to favor lockout, and lockout quick. The amount of times it actuates is nuts, you just aren't going to be doing that manually. FA can be run fully manually, for the people who just want the cable free experience, but the reason they add the automation is because once you have the push button remote system, all you have to add is the gyroscope, accelerometer, and algorithms which these days are not a big deal because those things are so ubiquitous now it's not adding that much cost. It's not like auto mode isn't popular...
That is kind of where I was going with this. Not so much the bike and it’s kinematic which we know plays a part. But the rider being more efficient and possibly saving watts pedaling due to electronic suspension. Which could also be a factor to cancel out the claimed drag and watts lost on these big days/racing on big travel idler or gearbox bikes.
That is kind of where I was going with this. Not so much the bike and it’s kinematic which we know plays a part. But the...
That is kind of where I was going with this. Not so much the bike and it’s kinematic which we know plays a part. But the rider being more efficient and possibly saving watts pedaling due to electronic suspension. Which could also be a factor to cancel out the claimed drag and watts lost on these big days/racing on big travel idler or gearbox bikes.
Yes, but I think other people in this thread have clearly explained why those efficiencies don't offer any unique benefits to high pivot, gearbox, or idler-based designs. Yes, electronics would make high pivot, gearbox, and idler-based bikes more efficient, but at the same time they'd be making all the other bikes more efficient, too.
If Dave has four apples and Lisa has six apples, and you give them both four apples, Lisa still has more apples than Dave.
Now, I guess if you're saying that electronic lockouts give them both the equivalent of 100 additional apples, then I would concede that the difference between Dave's 104 apples and Lisa's 106 apples doesn't seem so big anymore. But I don't think anyone is claiming that FA or LiveValve can make a bike orders of magnitude more efficient.
"Push against" and bob-induced inefficiency is the same thing.
On a modern xc or trail bike, lockouts save almost nothing. Your bike has to be a very long travel and very poor design to need a lockout, let alone a $2000 lockout
That is kind of where I was going with this. Not so much the bike and it’s kinematic which we know plays a part. But the...
That is kind of where I was going with this. Not so much the bike and it’s kinematic which we know plays a part. But the rider being more efficient and possibly saving watts pedaling due to electronic suspension. Which could also be a factor to cancel out the claimed drag and watts lost on these big days/racing on big travel idler or gearbox bikes.
Yes, but I think other people in this thread have clearly explained why those efficiencies don't offer any unique benefits to high pivot, gearbox, or idler-based...
Yes, but I think other people in this thread have clearly explained why those efficiencies don't offer any unique benefits to high pivot, gearbox, or idler-based designs. Yes, electronics would make high pivot, gearbox, and idler-based bikes more efficient, but at the same time they'd be making all the other bikes more efficient, too.
If Dave has four apples and Lisa has six apples, and you give them both four apples, Lisa still has more apples than Dave.
Now, I guess if you're saying that electronic lockouts give them both the equivalent of 100 additional apples, then I would concede that the difference between Dave's 104 apples and Lisa's 106 apples doesn't seem so big anymore. But I don't think anyone is claiming that FA or LiveValve can make a bike orders of magnitude more efficient.
I understand what you are saying and yes you are correct, you can put them on any bike. But getting the downhill advantages that a high pivot idler or gearbox bike offers, then adding a fox neo giving it equal efficiency of just a good pedaling bike seems like what people are after on an enduro bike. Good to pedal all day and great downhill. I’m not saying this is the answer for everyone but could see this being where electronic suspension mitigates some cons in suspension designs
Example using your method. If Dave has 4 apples(pedaling performance) and 7 bananas( downhill performance) and Lisa had 7 apples and 4 bananas, and you gave them both 3 apples, Dave has the better all around performance
In my opinion, electronic lockouts are worthless. I don't think lockouts at all really matter for climbing efficiency. The #1 thing affecting efficiency is your tires...
In my opinion, electronic lockouts are worthless. I don't think lockouts at all really matter for climbing efficiency. The #1 thing affecting efficiency is your tires. Next is your seated position (geometry). All other considerations are a distant 3rd.
Others have mentioned it before, but call me when electronic suspension is used for something actually useful, like suspension setup or position sentitive damping.
In my observation no, nobody stands up while climbing.I came from the old school Kirt Voreis school of climbing, which says to stand up all the...
In my observation no, nobody stands up while climbing.
I came from the old school Kirt Voreis school of climbing, which says to stand up all the time to train your descending muscles. Plus I spent a ton of time on singlespeeds, because it reinforced the Voreis approach, and because it's a fun challenge in a bizarre way, but that puts you and I in a very small camp. Most people on road bikes or mountain bikes will sit 99% of the time and will pretty much only stand to descend or sprint.
Stand climbing is an old bike world skill that came about from hardtails and fire road or tv raid climbs. With the addition of climb trails and “modern” dual suspension bike sit down climbing is the norm. I stand climb a lot, partially because I’m lazy and don’t stretch enough so it helps the body ache and part is muscle memory from riding 1x well before the addition of a 50 tooth cassette
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to...
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to switch between pre-defined modes. I feel like this was the obvious first step in electronic suspension and is just much simpler over all from an R&D cost perspective too. It would be easier to market in the modern world of flow and jump lines in trail systems/bike parks that also include natural trails. Open for tech, firm for jumps. Not to mention the general sour sentiment on AI. Even though the suspension is using deterministic algorithms and isn't AI, the general consumer may not want it to "think" for them.
I mean I think the whole point of electronic suspension is to be better than what that would offer. If you just wanted to switch between...
I mean I think the whole point of electronic suspension is to be better than what that would offer. If you just wanted to switch between a firm and an open mode at the handlebar than you could easily do that with no electronics at all.
I see your point, but with an electronic switch at the handlebars, you could be choosing between a lot more options than just on/off or even...
I see your point, but with an electronic switch at the handlebars, you could be choosing between a lot more options than just on/off or even a three position soft/firm/locked out. You could use the electronic lever to choose between as few as two but as many as infinite modes that are configured by the user on the app. Those modes could include smarter LiveValve or FlightAttendant modes that use sensors, algorithms, and active electronics to open and close at a rate of 100hz to respond to terrain in real time. You can't do that without electronics.
I'm pretty sure the World Cup riders that are using FA (like Luca Shaw or Vali Holl) aren't using it as a "dumb" lockout switch, I'm pretty sure when they "lockout" it's still "smart" and knows to open up under certain conditions based on sensor feedback.
FA bikes have multiple "smart" modes already, which are either more biased towards pedaling efficiency or descending performance, but you have to use the app or a button on the top of the fork to toggle between those settings. I always thought a handlebar-mounted remote lever was a no-brainer for this system.
EDITOR'S NOTE: apparently this is already a Flight Attendant feature that can be configured with AXS pods, which makes a ton of sense.
Oh i totally agree. I’m just pointing out that going electronic without adding all the additional features doesn’t make a ton sense verse perhaps going the push route (twin adjustable circuits) with a handlebar remote.
Also seems that both ohlins (on specialized) and rockshox has modes with handlebar remote. But I imagine it’s much more complicated that simply putting programmable motors to turn your knobs. (Not that wouldn’t be cool, just very expensive for a feature not many are going to use. Especially if it’s going to be wireless.
OneUp just dropped a very reasonably priced alloy wheelsets.
It'll be interesting to see when more details are available from launch reviews as to how these differ from Reserve AL HD 30 wheels (also owned by PON). Off the top of my head, Reserves are $100 more, come with DT hubs typically, and have lifetime warranty. The Fillmore valves are the same just rebadged. The tape looks to be the same 3M stuff (neon yellow) as what Reserve uses. 30 AL|HD I think was 32 spokes front/rear though instead of 28/32.
In my Defense, I bought them all at once as they were decent price and Im a big oneup fan. Think I got them on the 2nd drop as first lot sold pretty quick.
- The one I have built as 27.5 for the Ebike is less draggy now but its done alot of work, got anther 27.5 and one 29, Tried using them on the DH bike but Still quite noticeable
It'll be interesting to see when more details are available from launch reviews as to how these differ from Reserve AL HD 30 wheels (also owned...
It'll be interesting to see when more details are available from launch reviews as to how these differ from Reserve AL HD 30 wheels (also owned by PON). Off the top of my head, Reserves are $100 more, come with DT hubs typically, and have lifetime warranty. The Fillmore valves are the same just rebadged. The tape looks to be the same 3M stuff (neon yellow) as what Reserve uses. 30 AL|HD I think was 32 spokes front/rear though instead of 28/32.
How much longer will they keep the lifetime warranty? Seemed like a really bad decision on their part when they announced it. Wonder if their accountants agree.
I was at Eurobike last week and was really curious about the Stablead products, specially their suspensions. It looks really well made, I was checking their...
I was at Eurobike last week and was really curious about the Stablead products, specially their suspensions. It looks really well made, I was checking their enduro inverted fork and saw it had a USB-C port. The guy at the stand said it was for an electronic damper. All forks would come with the USB port so you could upgrade to electronics even if you buy a traditional fork. They said the plan to release was for beginning 2027.
Other than that, I couldn't find anything interesting apart from the whole Gobao/Avinox CVT madness, really curious to try them.
That is kind of where I was going with this. Not so much the bike and it’s kinematic which we know plays a part. But the...
That is kind of where I was going with this. Not so much the bike and it’s kinematic which we know plays a part. But the rider being more efficient and possibly saving watts pedaling due to electronic suspension. Which could also be a factor to cancel out the claimed drag and watts lost on these big days/racing on big travel idler or gearbox bikes.
Yes, but I think other people in this thread have clearly explained why those efficiencies don't offer any unique benefits to high pivot, gearbox, or idler-based...
Yes, but I think other people in this thread have clearly explained why those efficiencies don't offer any unique benefits to high pivot, gearbox, or idler-based designs. Yes, electronics would make high pivot, gearbox, and idler-based bikes more efficient, but at the same time they'd be making all the other bikes more efficient, too.
If Dave has four apples and Lisa has six apples, and you give them both four apples, Lisa still has more apples than Dave.
Now, I guess if you're saying that electronic lockouts give them both the equivalent of 100 additional apples, then I would concede that the difference between Dave's 104 apples and Lisa's 106 apples doesn't seem so big anymore. But I don't think anyone is claiming that FA or LiveValve can make a bike orders of magnitude more efficient.
I understand what you are saying and yes you are correct, you can put them on any bike. But getting the downhill advantages that a high...
I understand what you are saying and yes you are correct, you can put them on any bike. But getting the downhill advantages that a high pivot idler or gearbox bike offers, then adding a fox neo giving it equal efficiency of just a good pedaling bike seems like what people are after on an enduro bike. Good to pedal all day and great downhill. I’m not saying this is the answer for everyone but could see this being where electronic suspension mitigates some cons in suspension designs
Example using your method. If Dave has 4 apples(pedaling performance) and 7 bananas( downhill performance) and Lisa had 7 apples and 4 bananas, and you gave them both 3 apples, Dave has the better all around performance
Except, as I already explained, locking out the suspension doesn't make a high pivot bike more efficient drivetrain wise. At the same time it's not inefficient bob wise.
Again, as I said, electronic suspension makes sense on a traditional drivetraj layout which is designed to be inherently inefficient pedal bob wise as you get a lot of downhill performance you otherwise get from an idler design (no pedal kickback).
The thing that people miss about the lockout/FA efficiency thing is that it's not just about efficiency but power production. When the bike is firmer, you...
The thing that people miss about the lockout/FA efficiency thing is that it's not just about efficiency but power production. When the bike is firmer, you have more to push AGAINST. Most people do power tests on their road bikes because they know it will boost their numbers. The longer the interval, the easier it is to do on the MTB vs the road bike, but those shorter harder efforts are generally considered easier on the road bike. Most people I know do vo2 max intervals on their road bike basically for vanity. But there is an argument it's actually a good idea to do sprint intervals that way, and not squish around.
Yes, 100% antisquat should prevent all pedal bob induced by changes in forward momentum, however it has no effect on changes in rider CG. The reason your bike bobs like crazy when you pedal out of the saddle (if you don't work to keep your mass very still, which is possible, but I think harder) is because your CG is moving up and down. You are literally bouncing on the pedals, and your suspension is responding to that as you would expect. However when you lock the bike out more of that energy gets converted to forward momentum. Like on a road bike, you can still feel the frame flex a bit, and the tires compress and whatnot (which is why roadies got obsessed with like 300psi tire pressures) but it's pretty minimal power loss.
I think TEAMROBOT probably spends too much time with enduro and DH bros 😂 Riding a big squishy bike without lockout... yeah it doesn't pedal for shit out of the saddle so you get trained to not do that. Every XC rider I know spends plenty of time out of the saddle, and you intuitively know you ought to do some of your training like that. It's super rare to find a rider in an XC race who is punching out of corners and over little rises or ledges strictly in the saddle. I know this forum is mostly gravity focused, but keep in mind XC racing and riding is a HUGE part of mtb.
There is a reason why FA has such huge uptake in XC. The number of corners you pedal hard out of is insane, the people I've talked to run bias +2 (as do I) which causes it to favor lockout, and lockout quick. The amount of times it actuates is nuts, you just aren't going to be doing that manually. FA can be run fully manually, for the people who just want the cable free experience, but the reason they add the automation is because once you have the push button remote system, all you have to add is the gyroscope, accelerometer, and algorithms which these days are not a big deal because those things are so ubiquitous now it's not adding that much cost. It's not like auto mode isn't popular...
Not found a definitive answer, but can you just run the shock in a dumb mode, where the axs controller shuffles the shock between open/trail/closed ?
In my Defense, I bought them all at once as they were decent price and Im a big oneup fan.Think I got them on the 2nd...
In my Defense, I bought them all at once as they were decent price and Im a big oneup fan. Think I got them on the 2nd drop as first lot sold pretty quick.
- The one I have built as 27.5 for the Ebike is less draggy now but its done alot of work, got anther 27.5 and one 29, Tried using them on the DH bike but Still quite noticeable
Have you even looked at the hubs to try and remove the drag? I took the end cap wipers out and the grease stayed clean over six months of riding. They run better than 350's in my experience
The thing that people miss about the lockout/FA efficiency thing is that it's not just about efficiency but power production. When the bike is firmer, you...
The thing that people miss about the lockout/FA efficiency thing is that it's not just about efficiency but power production. When the bike is firmer, you have more to push AGAINST. Most people do power tests on their road bikes because they know it will boost their numbers. The longer the interval, the easier it is to do on the MTB vs the road bike, but those shorter harder efforts are generally considered easier on the road bike. Most people I know do vo2 max intervals on their road bike basically for vanity. But there is an argument it's actually a good idea to do sprint intervals that way, and not squish around.
Yes, 100% antisquat should prevent all pedal bob induced by changes in forward momentum, however it has no effect on changes in rider CG. The reason your bike bobs like crazy when you pedal out of the saddle (if you don't work to keep your mass very still, which is possible, but I think harder) is because your CG is moving up and down. You are literally bouncing on the pedals, and your suspension is responding to that as you would expect. However when you lock the bike out more of that energy gets converted to forward momentum. Like on a road bike, you can still feel the frame flex a bit, and the tires compress and whatnot (which is why roadies got obsessed with like 300psi tire pressures) but it's pretty minimal power loss.
I think TEAMROBOT probably spends too much time with enduro and DH bros 😂 Riding a big squishy bike without lockout... yeah it doesn't pedal for shit out of the saddle so you get trained to not do that. Every XC rider I know spends plenty of time out of the saddle, and you intuitively know you ought to do some of your training like that. It's super rare to find a rider in an XC race who is punching out of corners and over little rises or ledges strictly in the saddle. I know this forum is mostly gravity focused, but keep in mind XC racing and riding is a HUGE part of mtb.
There is a reason why FA has such huge uptake in XC. The number of corners you pedal hard out of is insane, the people I've talked to run bias +2 (as do I) which causes it to favor lockout, and lockout quick. The amount of times it actuates is nuts, you just aren't going to be doing that manually. FA can be run fully manually, for the people who just want the cable free experience, but the reason they add the automation is because once you have the push button remote system, all you have to add is the gyroscope, accelerometer, and algorithms which these days are not a big deal because those things are so ubiquitous now it's not adding that much cost. It's not like auto mode isn't popular...
The reason flight attendant has a huge uptake in XC is because SRAM sponsored teams are required to run it. I know four different world cup athletes and they have all said they would just prefer a manual lockout. When it works properly it's alright but it's heavy and frequently has connectivity problems between all the components. It seems more casual users like it with one less thing to think about while riding and the weight doesn't matter to a more casual rider.
As for trail/enduro bikes, ever wonder why every single SRAM EWS athlete stopped riding LYRIK and started riding ZEB and FA because they were contracted to. I personally just don't want to check eight different batteries so I can go ride after work
In my observation no, nobody stands up while climbing.I came from the old school Kirt Voreis school of climbing, which says to stand up all the...
In my observation no, nobody stands up while climbing.
I came from the old school Kirt Voreis school of climbing, which says to stand up all the time to train your descending muscles. Plus I spent a ton of time on singlespeeds, because it reinforced the Voreis approach, and because it's a fun challenge in a bizarre way, but that puts you and I in a very small camp. Most people on road bikes or mountain bikes will sit 99% of the time and will pretty much only stand to descend or sprint.
I think people are really missing out on a lot of benefits when they don't stand up for at least steeper parts of a climb, you use so much higher gear for this technique that you get to the top much faster, using different muscle spectrum to get there so spreading the fatigue more evenly between them is also pretty good benefit. It takes some time to learn proper technique, sure, I would be surprised if even very average Joe would need more than 10 decent rides to figure it out and benefit for the rest of his riding life.
In my Defense, I bought them all at once as they were decent price and Im a big oneup fan.Think I got them on the 2nd...
In my Defense, I bought them all at once as they were decent price and Im a big oneup fan. Think I got them on the 2nd drop as first lot sold pretty quick.
- The one I have built as 27.5 for the Ebike is less draggy now but its done alot of work, got anther 27.5 and one 29, Tried using them on the DH bike but Still quite noticeable
Have you even looked at the hubs to try and remove the drag? I took the end cap wipers out and the grease stayed clean over...
Have you even looked at the hubs to try and remove the drag? I took the end cap wipers out and the grease stayed clean over six months of riding. They run better than 350's in my experience
Took about 2 rides for mine to break in and feel great but they did replace a Shimano XTR hub so the bar was low.
Are all of you guys really flipping your climb switch multiple times per ride?
If we really, really want electronic suspension, why not just a simple solenid that flips your suspension closed when your power meter hits a configurable threshold, with nothing else? That could be $100.
For my rides, that are all either winch and plummet or fire road climbs, I can't stand up or I'll lose rear traction. On road climbs I do stand here and there to stretch the legs and change up body position, but its only for a few seconds at a time.
Yes, but I think other people in this thread have clearly explained why those efficiencies don't offer any unique benefits to high pivot, gearbox, or idler-based...
Yes, but I think other people in this thread have clearly explained why those efficiencies don't offer any unique benefits to high pivot, gearbox, or idler-based designs. Yes, electronics would make high pivot, gearbox, and idler-based bikes more efficient, but at the same time they'd be making all the other bikes more efficient, too.
If Dave has four apples and Lisa has six apples, and you give them both four apples, Lisa still has more apples than Dave.
Now, I guess if you're saying that electronic lockouts give them both the equivalent of 100 additional apples, then I would concede that the difference between Dave's 104 apples and Lisa's 106 apples doesn't seem so big anymore. But I don't think anyone is claiming that FA or LiveValve can make a bike orders of magnitude more efficient.
I understand what you are saying and yes you are correct, you can put them on any bike. But getting the downhill advantages that a high...
I understand what you are saying and yes you are correct, you can put them on any bike. But getting the downhill advantages that a high pivot idler or gearbox bike offers, then adding a fox neo giving it equal efficiency of just a good pedaling bike seems like what people are after on an enduro bike. Good to pedal all day and great downhill. I’m not saying this is the answer for everyone but could see this being where electronic suspension mitigates some cons in suspension designs
Example using your method. If Dave has 4 apples(pedaling performance) and 7 bananas( downhill performance) and Lisa had 7 apples and 4 bananas, and you gave them both 3 apples, Dave has the better all around performance
Except, as I already explained, locking out the suspension doesn't make a high pivot bike more efficient drivetrain wise. At the same time it's not inefficient...
Except, as I already explained, locking out the suspension doesn't make a high pivot bike more efficient drivetrain wise. At the same time it's not inefficient bob wise.
Again, as I said, electronic suspension makes sense on a traditional drivetraj layout which is designed to be inherently inefficient pedal bob wise as you get a lot of downhill performance you otherwise get from an idler design (no pedal kickback).
Not saying you’re wrong as I’m not claiming to know all this, but almost every high/mid pivot review talks how pedaling feels a touch slow/draggy. Mostly pointing to the idler. Why is that? All I’m trying to say is it would be an interesting test to see if electronic suspension would help eliminate that feel of being a touch slow/draggy on these bikes that claim to have it. Less kinematic and more real world test. To me, fa or Neo makes more sense and beneficial than a wireless derailleur. The shock would still work if the battery died so doesn’t kill your ride and you don’t have to take your hand off the bars to lock out which we’ve all at least a few times veered off line while doing this. I’m sure a wireless controller would be wanted for most people though
In a regular bike you have one big bearing for the crank. Using an idler wheel means you have a second mounting point including additional bearings that have a certain resistance when spinning. So the resistance from bearings is roughly doubled compared to a non-idler-bike.
I really don't see how an electronic suspension could improve this.
It's not that it wouldn't potentially convey efficiency benefits, it's that it wouldn't feel less draggy irrespective of those benefits. That doesn't mean that some of the downside of the idler could not be theoretically offset by the electronically-automated suspension, though. It is, however, unlikely on account of high-pivot kinematics being largely dialed.
If the rider is losing forward momentum to suspension bob, then the FA/Neo would help to translate more pedal stroke into forward movement. The additional drag comes from the extra friction inherent in an idler-equipped setup; that draggy feeling is still going to be there regardless of how more efficient one's pedaling efforts become due to the suspension upgrade.
It may seem like everyone is splitting hairs here, but it is a legitimate disambiguation, especially because the suspension bob element is largely addressed by incorporating appropriate anti-squat values into the suspension kinematic.
Now, is it possible that downhill performance could be dialed in more by adjusting the kinematic to bias descending then offsetting that with electronic damping? Yes, in fact Orbea are doing it now with the new Rallon. That approach is equally legitimate regardless of whether a bike has an idler or not, though.
Would a high-pivot bike erase bumps more effectively than an alternative layout in such a scheme? Yeah, for sure. It would still have more drag, though.
That is kind of where I was going with this. Not so much the bike and it’s kinematic which we know plays a part. But the rider being more efficient and possibly saving watts pedaling due to electronic suspension. Which could also be a factor to cancel out the claimed drag and watts lost on these big days/racing on big travel idler or gearbox bikes.
Yes, but I think other people in this thread have clearly explained why those efficiencies don't offer any unique benefits to high pivot, gearbox, or idler-based designs. Yes, electronics would make high pivot, gearbox, and idler-based bikes more efficient, but at the same time they'd be making all the other bikes more efficient, too.
If Dave has four apples and Lisa has six apples, and you give them both four apples, Lisa still has more apples than Dave.
Now, I guess if you're saying that electronic lockouts give them both the equivalent of 100 additional apples, then I would concede that the difference between Dave's 104 apples and Lisa's 106 apples doesn't seem so big anymore. But I don't think anyone is claiming that FA or LiveValve can make a bike orders of magnitude more efficient.
"Push against" and bob-induced inefficiency is the same thing.
On a modern xc or trail bike, lockouts save almost nothing. Your bike has to be a very long travel and very poor design to need a lockout, let alone a $2000 lockout
"anti-squat and electronic suspension rumors and innovation"
I understand what you are saying and yes you are correct, you can put them on any bike. But getting the downhill advantages that a high pivot idler or gearbox bike offers, then adding a fox neo giving it equal efficiency of just a good pedaling bike seems like what people are after on an enduro bike. Good to pedal all day and great downhill. I’m not saying this is the answer for everyone but could see this being where electronic suspension mitigates some cons in suspension designs
Example using your method. If Dave has 4 apples(pedaling performance) and 7 bananas( downhill performance) and Lisa had 7 apples and 4 bananas, and you gave them both 3 apples, Dave has the better all around performance
Stand climbing is an old bike world skill that came about from hardtails and fire road or tv raid climbs. With the addition of climb trails and “modern” dual suspension bike sit down climbing is the norm. I stand climb a lot, partially because I’m lazy and don’t stretch enough so it helps the body ache and part is muscle memory from riding 1x well before the addition of a 50 tooth cassette
Oh i totally agree. I’m just pointing out that going electronic without adding all the additional features doesn’t make a ton sense verse perhaps going the push route (twin adjustable circuits) with a handlebar remote.
Also seems that both ohlins (on specialized) and rockshox has modes with handlebar remote. But I imagine it’s much more complicated that simply putting programmable motors to turn your knobs. (Not that wouldn’t be cool, just very expensive for a feature not many are going to use. Especially if it’s going to be wireless.
OneUp Alloy wheels
OneUp just dropped a very reasonably priced alloy wheelsets.
Lost me at > aluminum nipples
It'll be interesting to see when more details are available from launch reviews as to how these differ from Reserve AL HD 30 wheels (also owned by PON). Off the top of my head, Reserves are $100 more, come with DT hubs typically, and have lifetime warranty. The Fillmore valves are the same just rebadged. The tape looks to be the same 3M stuff (neon yellow) as what Reserve uses. 30 AL|HD I think was 32 spokes front/rear though instead of 28/32.
Wonder if they've updated the rear hubs? I've got 3 sets and all 3 rears have been quite draggy
So they are draggy but you bought 3 sets?
In my Defense, I bought them all at once as they were decent price and Im a big oneup fan.
Think I got them on the 2nd drop as first lot sold pretty quick.
- The one I have built as 27.5 for the Ebike is less draggy now but its done alot of work, got anther 27.5 and one 29, Tried using them on the DH bike but Still quite noticeable
How much longer will they keep the lifetime warranty? Seemed like a really bad decision on their part when they announced it. Wonder if their accountants agree.
No idea about the brakes specifically, they seemed quite finished, same as the rest of components. So maybe similar timing, but that is just my guess
Do we know when the official release is going to be?
Except, as I already explained, locking out the suspension doesn't make a high pivot bike more efficient drivetrain wise. At the same time it's not inefficient bob wise.
Again, as I said, electronic suspension makes sense on a traditional drivetraj layout which is designed to be inherently inefficient pedal bob wise as you get a lot of downhill performance you otherwise get from an idler design (no pedal kickback).
Not found a definitive answer, but can you just run the shock in a dumb mode, where the axs controller shuffles the shock between open/trail/closed ?
Have you even looked at the hubs to try and remove the drag? I took the end cap wipers out and the grease stayed clean over six months of riding. They run better than 350's in my experience
The reason flight attendant has a huge uptake in XC is because SRAM sponsored teams are required to run it. I know four different world cup athletes and they have all said they would just prefer a manual lockout. When it works properly it's alright but it's heavy and frequently has connectivity problems between all the components. It seems more casual users like it with one less thing to think about while riding and the weight doesn't matter to a more casual rider.
As for trail/enduro bikes, ever wonder why every single SRAM EWS athlete stopped riding LYRIK and started riding ZEB and FA because they were contracted to. I personally just don't want to check eight different batteries so I can go ride after work
I think people are really missing out on a lot of benefits when they don't stand up for at least steeper parts of a climb, you use so much higher gear for this technique that you get to the top much faster, using different muscle spectrum to get there so spreading the fatigue more evenly between them is also pretty good benefit. It takes some time to learn proper technique, sure, I would be surprised if even very average Joe would need more than 10 decent rides to figure it out and benefit for the rest of his riding life.
Took about 2 rides for mine to break in and feel great but they did replace a Shimano XTR hub so the bar was low.
Are all of you guys really flipping your climb switch multiple times per ride?
If we really, really want electronic suspension, why not just a simple solenid that flips your suspension closed when your power meter hits a configurable threshold, with nothing else? That could be $100.
For my rides, that are all either winch and plummet or fire road climbs, I can't stand up or I'll lose rear traction. On road climbs I do stand here and there to stretch the legs and change up body position, but its only for a few seconds at a time.
Not saying you’re wrong as I’m not claiming to know all this, but almost every high/mid pivot review talks how pedaling feels a touch slow/draggy. Mostly pointing to the idler. Why is that? All I’m trying to say is it would be an interesting test to see if electronic suspension would help eliminate that feel of being a touch slow/draggy on these bikes that claim to have it. Less kinematic and more real world test. To me, fa or Neo makes more sense and beneficial than a wireless derailleur. The shock would still work if the battery died so doesn’t kill your ride and you don’t have to take your hand off the bars to lock out which we’ve all at least a few times veered off line while doing this. I’m sure a wireless controller would be wanted for most people though
In a regular bike you have one big bearing for the crank.
Using an idler wheel means you have a second mounting point including additional bearings that have a certain resistance when spinning. So the resistance from bearings is roughly doubled compared to a non-idler-bike.
I really don't see how an electronic suspension could improve this.
Does anyone know when these get released? I heard the MT is for sure the replacement 140.
It's not that it wouldn't potentially convey efficiency benefits, it's that it wouldn't feel less draggy irrespective of those benefits. That doesn't mean that some of the downside of the idler could not be theoretically offset by the electronically-automated suspension, though. It is, however, unlikely on account of high-pivot kinematics being largely dialed.
If the rider is losing forward momentum to suspension bob, then the FA/Neo would help to translate more pedal stroke into forward movement. The additional drag comes from the extra friction inherent in an idler-equipped setup; that draggy feeling is still going to be there regardless of how more efficient one's pedaling efforts become due to the suspension upgrade.
It may seem like everyone is splitting hairs here, but it is a legitimate disambiguation, especially because the suspension bob element is largely addressed by incorporating appropriate anti-squat values into the suspension kinematic.
Now, is it possible that downhill performance could be dialed in more by adjusting the kinematic to bias descending then offsetting that with electronic damping? Yes, in fact Orbea are doing it now with the new Rallon. That approach is equally legitimate regardless of whether a bike has an idler or not, though.
Would a high-pivot bike erase bumps more effectively than an alternative layout in such a scheme? Yeah, for sure. It would still have more drag, though.
This may be the first yeti that has interested me in a long time. Better start selling organs now.
The electronic suspension/high pivot/stand up and pedal convo is the dumbest thing to happen to tech rumors in a long time. Banal, illogical, myopic.
Post a reply to: 2026 MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation - Longer and Slacker