E-MTBs That Are Also E-Motos - What's Going to Happen?

Thanks for the post Spomer. I was litereally looking at a V10 yesterday and thinking "man, I'm still surprised nobody has really retrofitted a good solid batter+motor to DH bikes yet that has a throttle". 

While I may be dreaming to some extent there, the one thing I'd like to point out is we've been hearing the same thing for over 5 years and from what I can tell, not much has happened.

E-Bikes haven't served catalyst to mass trail closures.
I see zero data to suggest more trail conflicts are occuring. 
The sky is not in fact falling. 

This isn't to say there haven't been anecdotal issues, but issues have existed as long as I've been a mountain biker (anyone who follows me can go find the lady stabbing me with a hiking pole last year; had nothing to do with my bike btw). 

My guess is nothing really changes and nothing really happens at 99% of trails around the country. Hope I'm right, but am willing to change my mind...

I only have an emtb now and id like to add an emoto. From the vids ive watched of that bonnel  its looks super fun but the riders were flying into blind corners. Most will avoid doing that but those speeds were significantly higher than i'd go into a blind corner on anything, moto or mtb. If theyre not legally able to ride on mtb trails and they nail someone at that speed i think they open themselves up to a lawsuit.

  If the trails had bigger line of sight design i cant see why they couldnt co exist. I was lucky enough to live in a ski town with a ton of really good mtb trails on several mountains surrounding it. One mt had the majority of it designed for enduro moto and a moto track. The enduro moto trails were very similar to the mtb trails but with bigger line of sight for the increased speeds. Emtb speeds are so close to mtb speeds that i havent encountered any issues On mtb trails. The bonnel almost doubles that speed. Directional dh trails no problem. 

 Personally id just like to see mini moto tracks for emotos on flatter terrain. There'd be no reason to ride an emtb or mtb there. That bonnel would be sweet on the revelstoke enduro moto trails or dh trails with logging road access climbs to them. The 2 way mtb  trails with that would piss off everyone. The bonnel climbs too fast for tighter mtb trails.That will differ in other areas and terrain of course

We had Saurons descend on our local social trail spot over the last 2 years. They are kids, their parents are ok with their kids abusing areas as long as it's not their own ( the area is surrounded by residential neighborhoods). The kids on the Saurons tore up the space in moto ways, the neighbors complained to the police, and nothing happened. Then recently the land owner brought tractors out and destroyed all two wheel related fun bits. I feel bad for the BMX and MTB teens who built some fantastically sculpted jump areas. ALL of the kids/teens in this need a place to engage with outdoors and non-ball/stick sports - trail sports are a great solution to reducing screen time and "doing something" that everyone says they want for teens.

Also related, the Saurons and similar ebikes/epeds are on the streets, with the same reckless abandon. I know of two people who have hit these kids, who were on the wrong side of the street, on the sidewalk, and 20 mph and both "accidents" were deemed not the driver's fault. A responding police officer says he responds to more of these ebike vs. car incidents now than car vs. car incidents. 

None of it is sustainable. If people who ride these things follow the etiquette of the trails and rules of the road, this would be a nothing burger. I can see street regulations on ePeds similar to what happened to MoPeds many years ago. 16 and above only. The MoPed had similar issues on the street before regulations and the regulations killed the MoPed as 16 year olds want cars. Some historical perspective.

Wow this kind of blew my mind. This thing is nuts. As someone who's always been dirt bike curious, this would be awesome. But obviously I would have the respect to not ride it on regular MTB trails or roads. That being said, I have zero clue where I could actually ride it.

I suspect we would see more dudes like Sur Ronster who are getting them to ride on the street than MTB trails...I hope.

I think we missed the boat.. All bikes with throttles whether MTN or Road/commuter bikes (thats you RAD POWER) should have been classified as Mopeds. You need to register it and have a plate. Maybe not a Driver license but at least made street legal.. But as i said at the start, the boat has left the dock. There are too many DIY kits along with many other brands making these machines. Nothing will happen on the laws until someone gets seriously hurt. 

Just like the dog walker with 6 dogs on a Bike only trail yesterday. He knew he was in the wrong but was still there at the bottom of very technical shoot.He was putting himself / his dogs and me in danger and he knew but will he stop.. Probably not!

Nobody follows rules unless there are actual consequences. 

Be safe out there my breathers and sisters!!

Yeah, that's usually how it goes down in europe with illegal mtb trails that the land owner doesn't want: they go over them with machinery and destroy them. With surrons or more powerful ebikes this will happen faster and more.

This discussion is very us-centric. In most parts of europe motos are banned in the woods or mountains on trails. In many parts of the alps there are de facto bans of bikes on hiking trails in national parks or countries like Austria or bavaria sometimes enforced by rangers.

Also in regions like Vinschgau that market themselves as mtb destinations more and more land owners demand bans for bikes on certain hiking trails. 

I'm ready to buy an electric DH bike from whichever major brand makes one first. Haibike is off the list, because they don't have much of a presence in North America these days. Kenevo is off the list cause I'm not into the whole yoke driven shock thing. The superlight enduro eebs don't make any sense to me. 38's and Zebs still can't match a dual crown fork in the really rough stuff, so why not just build an e bike with the most suspension possible? 

Go ahead and downvote this post, but I'd prefer if said bike was class 3. you're only gonna be cruising at 20mph+ if you go on stupidly short rides in turbo mode, and a 20mph limit feels goofy on pavement,  when even a regular pedal bike does 20mph+ there easily. 

I wonder which current ebike comes closest. I thought the SCOR 6080 was a super sick model on release. And kinda looks like the closest thing to a DH ebike. I know a ton of dudes on SoCal have been dropping dual crowns on the YT Decoys. Maybe not quite the same but fairly close. I like the overall build of that Canyon Torque ebike but... It's a Canyon, already seen guys with those locally that have failed one way or another. I think some dude dual crowned an Ibis Oso as well lol

I think SCOR comes the closest... But the build is actually 190mm fork at 63 degree HTA. So not sure how you can adjust it but doesn't a dual crown typically equate to about 180mm sc so you may lose half a degree up front? Not the end of the world but sorta keeps it from being really DH-y... But at least it'd be 180/200 instead of 170/200 like the other ones.

I have no idea.  It’s just frustrating when you are climbing and someone wants to pass you doing 20mph when there is a quick way up that they just passed.  I have done it once on my top fuel and it kind of sucked after a number of laps already.  I was surrounded by e-bikes and I loudly said ok fine I’ll use the ebike trail since none of you do 😂  

Probably the Scor, or Crestline e bikes come closest to full DH performance. The Slash + would be sick with a dual crown, but the low power motor kind of kills it for me. Haibike made the Nduro 8 Freeride, which looked pretty decent at 180/180 on Ohlins and mullet. The Kenevo Comp at 180/180 probably shreds hard enough, but that probably goes for rear shocks also with the supersized Stumpy design.  The Niner WFO can be run with a dual crown, but it's pretty heavy, and Niner might not be around much longer from the looks of things. The Ibis Oso is dual crown rated, but the rear travel is a lot less, so probably more like a super enduro feel.

Does Marino in Peru do steel frames with motor mounts? Could you use a bafang?

It's becoming quite clear in the race for more power, with the gap narrowing between e-mtbs and e-motos, that legislation will happen and certain categories of bikes will not be able to be sold without insurance. The danger here is, that due to the difficulty of differentiating between class 2 and beyond e-mtbs and class 1, class 1 e-mtbs will be lumped in with the rest and all e-mtbs will require some sort of insurance or licensing. 

This is the fear that is pushing the Europeans (backed by Bosch) to apply power limits to electric bikes or face legal consequences in the near future that will limit bike sales.

The analogy of the off-road moto scene in the 70s is a perfect example of what things could look like for emtb and electric bikes in general regulation.

https://ebike-mtb.com/en/e-mountainbike-think-tank-2025-2/

Also the idea of a class 3 dh bike that handles close to a non motorized dh bike is wishful thinking. High power/speed means big battery. If you wanna do many laps you also want that battery to be quickly swappable. Then you're looking at up to 30 kg fully kitted out ready to ride. And that won't handle like a non motorized dh bike. 

Hot take. Emtbs could, like fishing and hunting permits, require purchase of an annual license for those eligible up to a torque/power limits. Annual fees can be redirected towards additional trail maintenance which should easily account for increased wear and tear. No licenses issued for vehicles above the power limits... you could also require pre-inspection from shops (before license issuance) to confirm adherence annually, to help minimize the number of riders de-limiting their bikes. 

Just like hunting and fishing, authorities could really step up their enforcement (and their revenue from fines) stopping riders on anything motorized to check licenses and issue citations if necessary.

But that's exactly what we don't want and what was originally the intention to limit pedelecs to a speed limit to keep the status of a bicycle that is unregulated in that regard. Its insanely stupid to risk that status because some people want to ride electric motorcycles everywhere or going 10 mph faster on a paved road:

'The risks and issues are real: in the worst case, e-bikes could lose their legal status as bicycles, leading to mandatory helmets, type approval, registration, insurance, denial of trail access, and riding bans in certain areas.

Currently, some players are playing with fire, exploiting loopholes and unregulated aspects, and thus gambling with the freedom of eMTB riding. Worse yet, industry, influencers, media, retailers, and customers are all playing along. Many ignore – or don’t even realise – that the current arms race to increase performance, torque, and battery capacities has more disadvantages than advantages. It’s time to change course and take responsibility!

Legally classified as Electrically Power Assisted Cycles (EPACs), e-bikes enjoy a special status in Europe as Active Mobility because the rider’s contribution is significant enough to classify them as bicycles rather than motorcycles. The current power arms race risks triggering regulators and certification bodies to impose type approvals and other restrictions. The potential consequences for the industry and the community would be severe. Therefore, proactive self-regulation, as currently implemented by cycling associations, is critical to maintain clarity and ensure that e-bikes remain classified as Active Mobility, which is clearly distinct from Passive Mobility (excessive power, high support ratios, throttle controls).

As we’ve pointed out in our article “No club, no trail” mountain bikers often have organizational shortcomings. This engagement is essential for representing our interests, especially since there are plenty of actors working against us. We certainly shouldn’t be adding to that from within the scene! Manufacturers might find it tempting to avoid taking clear positions or blocking decisions, but our industry has become far too significant to shirk responsibility.'

https://ebike-mtb.com/en/e-mountainbike-think-tank-2025-2/

In my use case using the motor just as a means to access alpine trails more comfortable and maybe a little quicker I don't really want/need a more powerful motor because it makes no sense going up bumpy fireroads faster than 25 km/h from a weight standpoint. The weight necessary for keeping up that speed would be detrimetal for dh performance. So I don't really see how this makes sense. 

People don't realize that even liberal regions like Finale Ligure have emerging conflicts around trail access. If in a few years there will be hundreds of riders racing around on 30 mph plus bikes acceptance will sink and trail closures will be the result. 

Exactly. E-bikes give e-motos a "justification" to fokk around on trail. Both kinds of toys will always end up getting access for ALL wheels shut down.
But reading the comments, I see the pattern that every person commenting here has that one special exception to do wrong by all because of their circumstance.
Every post I read is a "I/We need/want..." and then they break laws, tresspass & find their own little grey area.
History says if it has 2 wheels and causes problems...remove 2 wheels from the area.  

Here's my take on e-bikes & e-motos. They should be separate from bicycles & work together (separate from bicycles, hikers & equestrians) to develop their own playgrounds.  Do some actual legitamite work. 

Ride Kanuga here is an e-bike park. It could easily just be an e-park. 
Electric motos & electric mopeds and E-bikes are dead silent. 
Make em Electric parks for all e-motors & build your OWN trail system close to an urban area. 
No one will kick out motors they don't hear. 
E-bikes would get to build whatever they want. E-moto dads in RV's tossing big money at the park for little Johnny the ADHD monster to rip laps.  

Nobody over 100 yards away would know you exist. 
You'd never get kicked out.  
Motocross parks are so loud they don't get to occupy urban dead zones, ditches, gullies & dumps. But electric knobby cult could do whatever they want.


But.....they won't because mountain bikers did all the hard work for access & trails they can just shlt on.

I get it and simultaneously want a class 1 e-mtb still yet. Every time I get to borrow one and ride it I am simultaneously reminded that being able to dart uphill as fast as you can is absolutely not normal mtb activity. I also can admit that I want one so I can do 20 mile loops after work in the span of 2 hrs. 

I've had one head on and almost had several other head on collisions with emtbs coming up hill fast enough to be roosting berms uphill. The types of "bikes" above would be hard to police and make that scenario happen a lot more. Class 1 bikes are already stronger then they have to be to assist people some. 

One issue I see is that the term ebike is used to describe multiple types of vehicles.. Let's take a person that knows nothing of classes, pedal assist or anything like that.. They buy a Surron or some other lightweight electric motorcycle.. The whole time, they've been told it's an ebike.. They hear about trails that are open to ebikes,  so they head over..   

As for the prospect of enforcement on trails, it has happened before.. I know of a SoCal based XC team that would regularly break the posted speed limit in the park they rode at.. After enough complaints, the rangers figured out when to be there and started writing tickets..  This was before ebikes were even really a thing...

Overall, the mentality seem to be since it's not a gas motorcycle,  the rules don't apply..

If electric motors made the same sounds as gas motors, the treatment of an electric motor would be the same. I've yet to understand why having a motor that makes whirring sounds instead of putting or brapping sounds is somehow any different. 

It's like telling me you can drive your Tesla or golf cart on the sidewalk because it's quiet.

This is the message that we are seeing law enforcement out here pushing.. A Surron,  or similar bike, is still a motorcycle.. 

Noise levels matter in densly populated areas, for tourism and/or nature reserves. So a vehicle with noise levels only hearable from a few yards away will be treated differently than another that is audible from miles away.

Noise is the number one reason motorcycles get regulated. 

https://www.green-zones.eu/en/blog-news/too-much-noise-tyrol-reaffirms-ban-on-motorcycling

https://www.visordown.com/news/new-2025-eu-regs-mean-quieter-motorcycles

And that's a good thing. The alps infrastructure is too dense for noise pollution. 

the laws around these bikes (Full throttled Ebikes and pedal assist) are very clear here in Australia. Law enforcement seem to not do anything about it.  One of the things that amazes me is that here in Australia our import laws (around many different products) are very rigid yet customs and law makers have done nothing to stop bikes that do not meet legislation hit the bike shop floor. Now  every other kid is riding an illegal bike to school. Surron's are a thing here but they are still uncommon (at least i have not seen many on the local trails).  I have noticed local trails have declined to a very poor state since the influx of ebikes.  I don't think it has much to do with the bikes themselves more that the trails are more accessible which is what we want i suppose.  I do however think that importers and bike shops have a responsibility to educate riders of all kinds on their responsibility as a trail user. There will always be a percentage of the population that misuse the trails either via riding poor conditions, dragging rear wheels around corners, cutting corners or riding powered bikes (ICE or E). The bike shops are generally the main source of these bikes. So for me the bike shops need to either have a flyer on the bikes bars at sale or at the least explain that if the purchaser is going to ride it on public land they risk fines and impounding. I think most buyers (recent) are aware that legislation is clear here in australia but don't really take it seriously because there are some many illegal bikes on the streets (if they are doing it then i can too) and Law enforcment are not doing their job around the bikes. 

Everyone has a story. But the meat is: the lines are blurred and we are all effectively riding motos again . Some of us never stopped. As we homogenize into one user group : (two wheels) the access may change, shift, limit and also open up in new and weird ways . Some spots will dissapear and new ones will pop up, but the genie is out of the bottle and for all disparate user groups, we will be treated as one : wheels. Becasue the man cannot  police people in a way that would distinguish the differences. This is gonna be interesting and tragic. And weird and interesting too.  It it’s def happening and it’s definitely not reversable. The sky is not falling, but the trail access will have to change to accomadste a 3 speed, three vehicle class combination inside of one manageable family of users :  and planning commissions and land use directors and everyone associated with non motorized use is going to have to deal with “motor-creep” and decide locally how to shift the labeling and legality and access. 
Change is constant 

Here we go!!

i think it is pretty easy to differntiate between a pedal powered bike and a full motor driven bike. I don't think they will police at all but respectfully do not agree that it will be too difficult for ht he man to differentiate. 

I think this discussion ignores the aspects of different mentalities, legal frameworks and population density from country to country. If you've ridden motos all your life in some woods in north america nobody would give a shit because its not densly populated and people are used to it. Now do that in central europe in some tourist region and you'll immediately get in trouble.  

The actual enforment is another issue. Usually if stuff flies under the radar there won't be serious enforcment. But in many places over europe there is. There is no chance for any of this in parts of the DACH-Region or national parks in france and austria. You'll immediately will have rangers on your ass. I once parked my campervan to have lunch near a restaurant in austria and oversaw a small sign that said 'no campers allowed' and immediately the mountain police came and gave me a warning, I had to remove my car and got a letter that said repeated offenses could lead to fines up to 20k. 

Now I often ride trails that are illegal to ride in those regions. But its only really feasible in the parts where there isn't broad enforcement. I got away with it in austria too. But its just not a great feeling riding around there, seeing signs that biking is banned and wondering how long I would go without having someone on my ass or if I would make the trail or get stopped by someone. So in central europe I see no room for faster bikes. Faster bikes will lead to more conflicts and subsequently more regulation and enforcment of bans so in the end all of us will have less options to ride. 

Sorry, I am not riding motos, never have, and don't plan to do so anytime soon. You are lumping everyone into one category, from bikes to eMX bikes, as long as it has wheels. It is a myopic POV that only benefits you, a moto rider, because of the existing access that MTBs already have.

Well yeah, there's always a jerk who can ruin anything - legal or not. From my (motorcycle guy's) perspective, it sure seems like there are a lot more nice people out on the trails than jerks, though. 

Maybe we should be addressing trail etiquette more than regulating the bikes? 

I ride both. Not e-bikes. My point was that as we have blurred the line so brilliantly, and continue to persue our own individual interests, (((sometimes regardless and sometimes with regard the limits of the rules)))) the MAN, who has to “do something” when the peds and horses complain- he has to figure it out. 

My point is the line becomes so blurry that’s it’s actually just a thicker line. You’re riding a moto. Becasue the they them of the others see two wheels and it’s a moto. 
my spire and plus sized hardtail ? Motorcycle. 

Levo s-works? Motorcycle

Rocky Mountain element ? Motorcycle

Singlespeed gravel bike in the state park? Motorcycle

Stark? Motorcycle 

Surron on the sidewalk ? Motorcycle

Old guy on a globe he hacked doing 45 on the rec path? 
Motorcycle 

Older lady on a serratto titanium road bike? Motorcycle. 

There is zero way - without highly expensive and time consuming enforcement (btw trump fired them all) that we can delineate and government management that I’ve worked with has had this issue. 

The root solution almost always seems to land on : 

All user groups work together or start losing access rapidly. Thus: horseback groups work with Mtn bikers to keep the trails great , but not we surron groups that don’t work, and thus, the access gets limited 

Round and round we go. But it’s a lot of regional unknowns. And the only thing I know is it’s definitely going to change everything , in a lot of places …..