MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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FaahkEet
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Location
Falls Church, VA US
2/12/2025 7:22am

It's a proprietary blend of vertical compliance and lateral stiffness.

jonkranked wrote:

yea but is it artisanal?

Its ethically sourced.

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stoic_machine
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Dildo, Newfoundland CA
2/12/2025 7:33am

It's a proprietary blend of vertical compliance and lateral stiffness.

jonkranked wrote:

yea but is it artisanal?

FaahkEet wrote:

Its ethically sourced.

Was gonna say "fair trade" however I think that contradicts this whole joke lol.

6
Primoz
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SI
2/12/2025 7:34am Edited Date/Time 2/12/2025 7:35am
Primoz wrote:

Maybe compliance in general can be patented? 

At the rate Shimano and SRAM patent stupid shit just to freeze each other out of future potential projects... I cant see why we can't patent...

At the rate Shimano and SRAM patent stupid shit just to freeze each other out of future potential projects... I cant see why we can't patent "compliance"

bikelurker wrote:
You are not even allow to speak about compliance in a bicycle whitout bragging about how laterally stiff your BB area is 😉 "MTB Patent rumors and...

You are not even allow to speak about compliance in a bicycle whitout bragging about how laterally stiff your BB area is 😉

 

"MTB Patent rumors and innovation"... Spring can't come soon enought, haha.

I've ridden once in the last two months (and have been generally completely inactive) and have been sick for the whole time except one week. I'm losing my mind... This is all I have at the moment.

FWIW, prior art could be argued, but nobody marketed it as a feature. It was done for testing purposes by almost all companies up to this point. 

4
Finkill
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GB
2/12/2025 8:27am
At the rate Shimano and SRAM patent stupid shit just to freeze each other out of future potential projects... I cant see why we can't patent...

At the rate Shimano and SRAM patent stupid shit just to freeze each other out of future potential projects... I cant see why we can't patent "compliance"

bikelurker wrote:
You are not even allow to speak about compliance in a bicycle whitout bragging about how laterally stiff your BB area is 😉 "MTB Patent rumors and...

You are not even allow to speak about compliance in a bicycle whitout bragging about how laterally stiff your BB area is 😉

 

"MTB Patent rumors and innovation"... Spring can't come soon enought, haha.

Primoz wrote:
I've ridden once in the last two months (and have been generally completely inactive) and have been sick for the whole time except one week. I'm...

I've ridden once in the last two months (and have been generally completely inactive) and have been sick for the whole time except one week. I'm losing my mind... This is all I have at the moment.

FWIW, prior art could be argued, but nobody marketed it as a feature. It was done for testing purposes by almost all companies up to this point. 

Lapierre and Nukeproof both have marketed and sold bikes with movable main pivot positions in the recent past, probably others. 

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TimBud
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GB
2/12/2025 8:46am

Reynolds with a new prototype 

IMG 0984.jpeg?VersionId=U4MRAw5ri05dPwtS1BIrSVAIEk OJs7
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Trocko
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Location
Rocky, CO US
2/12/2025 3:11pm

Richie running new Fox coil and new shimano brakes/rotors. Also still has neo sensors by calipers but doesn’t look like Neo shock. Maybe just left them on as he’s offseason testing
 

IMG 5450
8
2/12/2025 6:34pm
Primoz wrote:

Maybe compliance in general can be patented? 

At the rate Shimano and SRAM patent stupid shit just to freeze each other out of future potential projects... I cant see why we can't patent...

At the rate Shimano and SRAM patent stupid shit just to freeze each other out of future potential projects... I cant see why we can't patent "compliance"

Has anyone checked to see if the patent office is still a thing? Could be that none of this matters anymore . . .

16
stoic_machine
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Location
Dildo, Newfoundland CA
2/12/2025 8:40pm
Primoz wrote:

Maybe compliance in general can be patented? 

At the rate Shimano and SRAM patent stupid shit just to freeze each other out of future potential projects... I cant see why we can't patent...

At the rate Shimano and SRAM patent stupid shit just to freeze each other out of future potential projects... I cant see why we can't patent "compliance"

Has anyone checked to see if the patent office is still a thing? Could be that none of this matters anymore . . .

I believe it's not cheap to file a patent and if you are not awarded the patent you don't get your money back so... At this time I'd say 

"it's the greatest division of government ever, it's great and does amazing things. You should see the people working there. They are Amazing. They do great things, you would love them."

12
Karabuka
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SI
2/12/2025 11:42pm

About the whole suspension and patents thingy, does anyone remember when EU said all of the suspension designs do the same thing and therefore do not qualify as patents which lead to a bunch of companies (Canyon, YT, Radon,...) use horst link, they just could not sell the bikes to the States untill the patent expired?

5
Primoz
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SI
2/12/2025 11:47pm

Got a link to any of it? Based on what is still patented I'm not sure it's a valid point that they all do the same thing... 

1
b.ay
Posts
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Location
Mid Hudson DE
2/13/2025 12:44am
Trocko wrote:
Richie running new Fox coil and new shimano brakes/rotors. Also still has neo sensors by calipers but doesn’t look like Neo shock. Maybe just left them...

Richie running new Fox coil and new shimano brakes/rotors. Also still has neo sensors by calipers but doesn’t look like Neo shock. Maybe just left them on as he’s offseason testing
 

IMG 5450

Reminds me of the Jade X 

1
2/13/2025 4:14am
Trocko wrote:
Richie running new Fox coil and new shimano brakes/rotors. Also still has neo sensors by calipers but doesn’t look like Neo shock. Maybe just left them...

Richie running new Fox coil and new shimano brakes/rotors. Also still has neo sensors by calipers but doesn’t look like Neo shock. Maybe just left them on as he’s offseason testing
 

IMG 5450

Those are MT900 Rotors and Saint brakes. 

6
Digit Bikes
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180
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Location
Irvine, CA US
2/13/2025 7:55am
Karabuka wrote:
About the whole suspension and patents thingy, does anyone remember when EU said all of the suspension designs do the same thing and therefore do not...

About the whole suspension and patents thingy, does anyone remember when EU said all of the suspension designs do the same thing and therefore do not qualify as patents which lead to a bunch of companies (Canyon, YT, Radon,...) use horst link, they just could not sell the bikes to the States untill the patent expired?

I don't remember that, but I would love to know more. Does anyone know more, please?

The EU patent office seems to have a hard time retaining any understanding that my slider-cam linkage is very much not a 6-bar or Horst link.

I recieved a new misunderstanding email yesterday, so I'm trying to decide right now whether applying there is a waste of time and money compared with just securing Germany and UK.

2
1
Primoz
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2/13/2025 8:03am

Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick bikes did back in the day is? 

1
Digit Bikes
Posts
180
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Location
Irvine, CA US
2/13/2025 8:07am

While I'm here. Is it rude to spread my own rumors?

Yesterday I released v2 Digit frames. I don't have a marketing plan so for now I've just posted a list of improvements here: digitbikes.com/blog/changeblog.

I'm also going to start selling a frame-only option, and an aluminum wheel build.

33
Digit Bikes
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180
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Location
Irvine, CA US
2/13/2025 8:13am
Primoz wrote:
Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick...

Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick bikes did back in the day is? 

Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.

Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard shock, wheras Analog has a strut

6
Primoz
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SI
2/13/2025 8:24am
Primoz wrote:
Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick...

Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick bikes did back in the day is? 

Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard...

Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.

Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard shock, wheras Analog has a strut

That I saw, yes. But you specifically mentioned you have a hard time convincing them your design is not a Horst link or a 6bar. Thus me asking what the novelty is. Kinematics wise it is very similar (conceptually) at least to the switch infinity... 

Rick26
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Location
., BC CA
2/13/2025 8:26am

What a strange launch from Trek as this new generation of Rail is up on Trek EU websites since +- 5 months now.

 

8
Etney
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Location
Frankfurt DE
2/13/2025 8:32am Edited Date/Time 2/13/2025 8:33am

Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as well. And the new gen slash has been out for more than a year.

They also "re-released" the Slash 5 with a new colorway fairly recently. Do they just have that many unpainted frames left in stock? Still they want full price for them.

 

7
Digit Bikes
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Location
Irvine, CA US
2/13/2025 8:40am Edited Date/Time 2/13/2025 10:20am
Primoz wrote:
Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick...

Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick bikes did back in the day is? 

Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard...

Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.

Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard shock, wheras Analog has a strut

Primoz wrote:
That I saw, yes. But you specifically mentioned you have a hard time convincing them your design is not a Horst link or a 6bar. Thus...

That I saw, yes. But you specifically mentioned you have a hard time convincing them your design is not a Horst link or a 6bar. Thus me asking what the novelty is. Kinematics wise it is very similar (conceptually) at least to the switch infinity... 

My question related to @Karabuka asking "does anyone remember when EU said all of the suspension designs do the same thing and therefore do not qualify as patents"? I never heard this before.

Patents should relate to inventions such as novel mechanisms. It's a bit of a stretch to say that any particular arrangement (kinematics) of a mechanism should be patentable. That's something that has been allowed however, which permitted both the DW and VPP patents to exist for instance. Perhaps it's the stretch of scope that they're trying to crackdown on?

It’s not that I’ve had “a hard time convincing them your design is not a Horst link or a 6bar” more that they’ve had a hard time retaining the information. For instance (this is made up example for illustration), they’ll ask for clarification of how Analog isn’t the same as a 6-bar linkage, I show the difference by counting the pivots; then they’ll ask how Analog is different from a 4-bar linkage, so again I show the difference by counting the pivots. I know it’s just that their agents aren’t familiar with our industry, but it feels like they’re playing with me.

2
sspomer
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Location
Boise, ID US
2/13/2025 8:42am

or we (not me) could start a patent question thread?

5
2/13/2025 8:46am

The Trek has 650b front and back for size small. Does it still have a 29er fork? Is it worth even making 650b forks anymore? I get that some people prefer the 650b front wheel esp. in the smaller sizes, but the geometry changes between a 29er fork and 650b fork with a 650b wheel is pretty trivial, esp. for small sizes where the frame is designed to incorporate it

1
Jotegr
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Interior, BC CA
2/13/2025 8:48am Edited Date/Time 2/13/2025 8:50am
Etney wrote:
Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as...

Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as well. And the new gen slash has been out for more than a year.

They also "re-released" the Slash 5 with a new colorway fairly recently. Do they just have that many unpainted frames left in stock? Still they want full price for them.

 

Having tons of stock and about to blow the F out of everything old in about a month. They've had $3800 CAD Slash 9.8s for months now and keep releasing new batches of crazy sale bikes.  Get ready for 40-60% off sales of all that previous gen stuff. 

I also don't get that Slash 5 limited edition flight attendant build and new colour. Who's really shelling out 10k CAD for a generation old bike when 10k CAD gets you a great new one? 

7
Digit Bikes
Posts
180
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Location
Irvine, CA US
2/13/2025 9:16am
sspomer wrote:

or we (not me) could start a patent question thread?

I’m not opposed to that.

Patents are specifically about novel technology though, so it feels more on topic than (for instance) the repeated mention of BK braking a seat stay, which feels neither tech rumor or innovation related. 

7
2/13/2025 9:24am
Etney wrote:
Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as...

Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as well. And the new gen slash has been out for more than a year.

They also "re-released" the Slash 5 with a new colorway fairly recently. Do they just have that many unpainted frames left in stock? Still they want full price for them.

 

Jotegr wrote:
Having tons of stock and about to blow the F out of everything old in about a month. They've had $3800 CAD Slash 9.8s for months...

Having tons of stock and about to blow the F out of everything old in about a month. They've had $3800 CAD Slash 9.8s for months now and keep releasing new batches of crazy sale bikes.  Get ready for 40-60% off sales of all that previous gen stuff. 

I also don't get that Slash 5 limited edition flight attendant build and new colour. Who's really shelling out 10k CAD for a generation old bike when 10k CAD gets you a great new one? 

Someone who has way too much money and doesn't know any better. They're unicorn customers but they do exist.

2
2/13/2025 9:28am

If I remember correctly, it was Kalle Nicolai and Horst Leitner who invented the horst link and patented it, and Horst Leitner got the patent for America, and Europe was kept for Nicolai to do whatever. Leitner got into a money squeeze and sold his patents to Specialized and European brands could do whatever but sell their bikes in the US - up until the patent expired and several European brands were starting distribution in North America (Canyon amongst others). 

And the invention/patents predates EU. 

7
kperras
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Location
CA
2/13/2025 9:56am
The Trek has 650b front and back for size small. Does it still have a 29er fork? Is it worth even making 650b forks anymore? I...

The Trek has 650b front and back for size small. Does it still have a 29er fork? Is it worth even making 650b forks anymore? I get that some people prefer the 650b front wheel esp. in the smaller sizes, but the geometry changes between a 29er fork and 650b fork with a 650b wheel is pretty trivial, esp. for small sizes where the frame is designed to incorporate it

The large suspension manufacturers have stopped making 27.5 forks in XC and DC applications (SID, 34, etc). I assume the volumes were too low to support 2 wheel sizes for what are categories that prioritize efficiency, meaning larger wheels. I could see this being a thing in more categories. I would hazard a guess that the industry-wide split in high end bike design, including size range per model, is 90-10 in favour of 29er.

5
2/13/2025 10:05am
kperras wrote:
The large suspension manufacturers have stopped making 27.5 forks in XC and DC applications (SID, 34, etc). I assume the volumes were too low to support...

The large suspension manufacturers have stopped making 27.5 forks in XC and DC applications (SID, 34, etc). I assume the volumes were too low to support 2 wheel sizes for what are categories that prioritize efficiency, meaning larger wheels. I could see this being a thing in more categories. I would hazard a guess that the industry-wide split in high end bike design, including size range per model, is 90-10 in favour of 29er.

Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.

Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between wheelsize, offset, and axle sizes, it's a lot of parts to manage.

Bike brands: What have you got in the works for 32"?

Fork makers: Excuse me?

29
sspomer
Posts
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Location
Boise, ID US
2/13/2025 10:20am

no way will 32 be for anything except XC or gravel, right? please? pretty please? make it stop?

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