Sounds like all of the downsides of cables plus all of the downsides of wireless to me. Annoying to install, annoying to remove, needs to be charged, it's expensive and heavy, and there's more things to go wrong.
I'm wondering why we still need to externally charge batteries for something that need this little energy to work. We are sitting on systems that are constantly...
I'm wondering why we still need to externally charge batteries for something that need this little energy to work.
We are sitting on systems that are constantly creating energy -vibrating, braking, pedaling, pumping. Why can't we gather a fraction of this energy to rationnaly charge the electronic components?
I can remember kinetics systems to recharge watches, and that was at least 20 years ago...
This has been my big prediction for the last couple of years - with more batteries being used it makes a ton of sense to have some kind of regenerating capability on modern bikes. Especially with larger riders on e-bikes who will always get less battery life (because physics), they will now have more kinetic energy that can be recovered through the suspension or braking. The suspension one could have interesting benefits since generating electricity could be used to supplement hydraulic damping so the energy harvesting would be used to add damping which kills 2 birds with 1 stone. The bike makers would have a hydraulic damper with the minimum tune needed, then instead of firmer tunes for heavy riders you increase the amount of harvesting the system does and the extra damping makes the bike ride better while also extending your battery life.
Rob Roskopp already alluded to this a year or so ago in an interview he did - anyone noticed where he is at now? I think Specialized has a lot of new technology in the pipeline around this space
Alternatively the magnet clips someone posted are a super tidy way to do it - no fragile external connectors anywhere on the ocmponent and can be sealed much better. Wireless components will only become more common, as anyone who has replaced the cable on an e-bike with attest to!
Regarding wireless droppers, I wonder if it would be possible to make a similar system to the archer d1x gear shifting system. A remote, Bluetooth activated servo that opens/closes the cable end of any current cable actuated dropper post with a small cable spool. Surely it wouldn’t be too hard to do? The only bikes that it would struggle with are ones that have interrupted seat tubes like Santa Cruz, forbidden, etc
Don’t know if anyone with the tech know how is trying this already…But might bring wireless droppers to more people, and get the drop/looks that most people are after.
I talked to a factory rider of a well known d2c brand. He also had ridden an Amflow bike with the dji motor and said he’s never ridden a bike with this good of a motor. He rode stuff up that he considered unridable on any other e-bike including his own sponsors e-bike. And the current e-bike of his sponsor is really good, but no dji motor. But there are lots of bike companies that have the dji motor already in house and build prototypes.
HOWEVER…
There are management concerns (I assume that counts for all bike brands the same) if dji who are a large corporation, decide/calculate/figure that the bike industry isn’t worthy the revenue their motor brings in and choose to discontinue the bike motor, you then have a bunch of bikes out in the field and no more spare parts. After all, dealing with Chinese, isn’t always easy. Not trying to bash them, it’s simply that a lot of people didn’t experience great customer service from Chinese companies and they’re not necessarily known for that either. And it would suck to for the bike manufacturer and obviously for the customer, if you can’t get spare parts for the motor.
Plus the dji cranks bend. Not during normal pedaling but if you properly case a jump, their cranks bend i.e. the pedals point down. Easy fix, choose different cranks, but this could hint other poor choices in material and/or parts strength
On the other hand, a close friend of the pro rider runs a large bike shop that sells Amflow bikes, has people storming into his shop simply asking for Amflow because of the motor. They don’t care about the bike.
Anyway. Just what I picked up from some nerdy conversations…
This has been my big prediction for the last couple of years - with more batteries being used it makes a ton of sense to have...
This has been my big prediction for the last couple of years - with more batteries being used it makes a ton of sense to have some kind of regenerating capability on modern bikes. Especially with larger riders on e-bikes who will always get less battery life (because physics), they will now have more kinetic energy that can be recovered through the suspension or braking. The suspension one could have interesting benefits since generating electricity could be used to supplement hydraulic damping so the energy harvesting would be used to add damping which kills 2 birds with 1 stone. The bike makers would have a hydraulic damper with the minimum tune needed, then instead of firmer tunes for heavy riders you increase the amount of harvesting the system does and the extra damping makes the bike ride better while also extending your battery life.
Rob Roskopp already alluded to this a year or so ago in an interview he did - anyone noticed where he is at now? I think Specialized has a lot of new technology in the pipeline around this space
Alternatively the magnet clips someone posted are a super tidy way to do it - no fragile external connectors anywhere on the ocmponent and can be sealed much better. Wireless components will only become more common, as anyone who has replaced the cable on an e-bike with attest to!
One company that manufactures MTB suspension is currently already doing kinetic energy recovery damping for factory motorsport applications. It is not one of the big 2 either.
I talked to a factory rider of a well known d2c brand. He also had ridden an Amflow bike with the dji motor and said he’s...
I talked to a factory rider of a well known d2c brand. He also had ridden an Amflow bike with the dji motor and said he’s never ridden a bike with this good of a motor. He rode stuff up that he considered unridable on any other e-bike including his own sponsors e-bike. And the current e-bike of his sponsor is really good, but no dji motor. But there are lots of bike companies that have the dji motor already in house and build prototypes.
HOWEVER…
There are management concerns (I assume that counts for all bike brands the same) if dji who are a large corporation, decide/calculate/figure that the bike industry isn’t worthy the revenue their motor brings in and choose to discontinue the bike motor, you then have a bunch of bikes out in the field and no more spare parts. After all, dealing with Chinese, isn’t always easy. Not trying to bash them, it’s simply that a lot of people didn’t experience great customer service from Chinese companies and they’re not necessarily known for that either. And it would suck to for the bike manufacturer and obviously for the customer, if you can’t get spare parts for the motor.
Plus the dji cranks bend. Not during normal pedaling but if you properly case a jump, their cranks bend i.e. the pedals point down. Easy fix, choose different cranks, but this could hint other poor choices in material and/or parts strength
On the other hand, a close friend of the pro rider runs a large bike shop that sells Amflow bikes, has people storming into his shop simply asking for Amflow because of the motor. They don’t care about the bike.
Anyway. Just what I picked up from some nerdy conversations…
US Department of Defense classify DJI as a "Chinese Military Company". I'd imagine that alone will be plenty to ward off many of the bigger, more conservative brands. Especially as we approach another 4yrs of trump tariffs.
Regarding wireless droppers, I wonder if it would be possible to make a similar system to the archer d1x gear shifting system. A remote, Bluetooth activated...
Regarding wireless droppers, I wonder if it would be possible to make a similar system to the archer d1x gear shifting system. A remote, Bluetooth activated servo that opens/closes the cable end of any current cable actuated dropper post with a small cable spool. Surely it wouldn’t be too hard to do? The only bikes that it would struggle with are ones that have interrupted seat tubes like Santa Cruz, forbidden, etc
Don’t know if anyone with the tech know how is trying this already…But might bring wireless droppers to more people, and get the drop/looks that most people are after.
Should be simple enough, the only problem being how to get the signal to the actuator. Frames are either steel, titanium or aluminium, all obviously conduct electricity, while carbon fibre also conducts electricity, but not sure how well. The metallic bikes for sure, possibly also carbon fibre bikes, are effectively Faraday cages which means no signal can get to the inside, more or less...
Should be simple enough, the only problem being how to get the signal to the actuator. Frames are either steel, titanium or aluminium, all obviously conduct...
Should be simple enough, the only problem being how to get the signal to the actuator. Frames are either steel, titanium or aluminium, all obviously conduct electricity, while carbon fibre also conducts electricity, but not sure how well. The metallic bikes for sure, possibly also carbon fibre bikes, are effectively Faraday cages which means no signal can get to the inside, more or less...
I agree, but still it works for people integrating AXS electronics in the handlebars or inside their frames. Don't understand how though.
I'm wondering why we still need to externally charge batteries for something that need this little energy to work. We are sitting on systems that are constantly...
I'm wondering why we still need to externally charge batteries for something that need this little energy to work.
We are sitting on systems that are constantly creating energy -vibrating, braking, pedaling, pumping. Why can't we gather a fraction of this energy to rationnaly charge the electronic components?
I can remember kinetics systems to recharge watches, and that was at least 20 years ago...
This has been my big prediction for the last couple of years - with more batteries being used it makes a ton of sense to have...
This has been my big prediction for the last couple of years - with more batteries being used it makes a ton of sense to have some kind of regenerating capability on modern bikes. Especially with larger riders on e-bikes who will always get less battery life (because physics), they will now have more kinetic energy that can be recovered through the suspension or braking. The suspension one could have interesting benefits since generating electricity could be used to supplement hydraulic damping so the energy harvesting would be used to add damping which kills 2 birds with 1 stone. The bike makers would have a hydraulic damper with the minimum tune needed, then instead of firmer tunes for heavy riders you increase the amount of harvesting the system does and the extra damping makes the bike ride better while also extending your battery life.
Rob Roskopp already alluded to this a year or so ago in an interview he did - anyone noticed where he is at now? I think Specialized has a lot of new technology in the pipeline around this space
Alternatively the magnet clips someone posted are a super tidy way to do it - no fragile external connectors anywhere on the ocmponent and can be sealed much better. Wireless components will only become more common, as anyone who has replaced the cable on an e-bike with attest to!
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the ideas. It would require a completely custom drivetrain solution fkm the cranks to the rear wheel - custom motor, gearbox and a direct connection between the motor and rear wheel. That means either in hub motor or a direct chain/belt connection with no tensioners. Which means a single pivot suspension layout with a concentric pivot to the output ring.
Then there is the question of activating and modulating the recovery, this session occurred before abs on bikes was a reality. And another question is the amount of recovery that is possible with, realistically, rear wheel only, the control or the calibration of the system should be a pain in the ass with a mountain bike and where you would be doing the energy recovery given the variability of surfaces and grip levels, etc.
Kudos to anybody making that happen in a way where it would be genuinely useful over just a marketing gimmick that nobody cares about 3 months after the release.
Should be simple enough, the only problem being how to get the signal to the actuator. Frames are either steel, titanium or aluminium, all obviously conduct...
Should be simple enough, the only problem being how to get the signal to the actuator. Frames are either steel, titanium or aluminium, all obviously conduct electricity, while carbon fibre also conducts electricity, but not sure how well. The metallic bikes for sure, possibly also carbon fibre bikes, are effectively Faraday cages which means no signal can get to the inside, more or less...
Regarding wireless droppers, I wonder if it would be possible to make a similar system to the archer d1x gear shifting system. A remote, Bluetooth activated...
Regarding wireless droppers, I wonder if it would be possible to make a similar system to the archer d1x gear shifting system. A remote, Bluetooth activated servo that opens/closes the cable end of any current cable actuated dropper post with a small cable spool. Surely it wouldn’t be too hard to do? The only bikes that it would struggle with are ones that have interrupted seat tubes like Santa Cruz, forbidden, etc
Don’t know if anyone with the tech know how is trying this already…But might bring wireless droppers to more people, and get the drop/looks that most people are after.
Should be simple enough, the only problem being how to get the signal to the actuator. Frames are either steel, titanium or aluminium, all obviously conduct...
Should be simple enough, the only problem being how to get the signal to the actuator. Frames are either steel, titanium or aluminium, all obviously conduct electricity, while carbon fibre also conducts electricity, but not sure how well. The metallic bikes for sure, possibly also carbon fibre bikes, are effectively Faraday cages which means no signal can get to the inside, more or less...
I knew there must have been a reason no one had done it up to now, seems too simple for someone cleverer than me to not try it…
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the...
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the ideas. It would require a completely custom drivetrain solution fkm the cranks to the rear wheel - custom motor, gearbox and a direct connection between the motor and rear wheel. That means either in hub motor or a direct chain/belt connection with no tensioners. Which means a single pivot suspension layout with a concentric pivot to the output ring.
Then there is the question of activating and modulating the recovery, this session occurred before abs on bikes was a reality. And another question is the amount of recovery that is possible with, realistically, rear wheel only, the control or the calibration of the system should be a pain in the ass with a mountain bike and where you would be doing the energy recovery given the variability of surfaces and grip levels, etc.
Kudos to anybody making that happen in a way where it would be genuinely useful over just a marketing gimmick that nobody cares about 3 months after the release.
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a mtb with the weight shifts and traction variation.
Maybe it could be integrated with ABS, but then I wonder if regen would create enough energy to offset the power demands of ABS systems?
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the...
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the ideas. It would require a completely custom drivetrain solution fkm the cranks to the rear wheel - custom motor, gearbox and a direct connection between the motor and rear wheel. That means either in hub motor or a direct chain/belt connection with no tensioners. Which means a single pivot suspension layout with a concentric pivot to the output ring.
Then there is the question of activating and modulating the recovery, this session occurred before abs on bikes was a reality. And another question is the amount of recovery that is possible with, realistically, rear wheel only, the control or the calibration of the system should be a pain in the ass with a mountain bike and where you would be doing the energy recovery given the variability of surfaces and grip levels, etc.
Kudos to anybody making that happen in a way where it would be genuinely useful over just a marketing gimmick that nobody cares about 3 months after the release.
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a...
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a mtb with the weight shifts and traction variation.
Maybe it could be integrated with ABS, but then I wonder if regen would create enough energy to offset the power demands of ABS systems?
Regen on mid drives seems difficult and highly inefficient to implement, but for hub motors mated to a brake sensor could work (how my hybrid regens).
Back to rumors the entire specialized gravity team were testing in Tahoe and Bruni’s insta post on it mentioned ‘new bike is fast’. Maybe a revised layout proto update or they’re finally on the production frame?
I talked to a factory rider of a well known d2c brand. He also had ridden an Amflow bike with the dji motor and said he’s...
I talked to a factory rider of a well known d2c brand. He also had ridden an Amflow bike with the dji motor and said he’s never ridden a bike with this good of a motor. He rode stuff up that he considered unridable on any other e-bike including his own sponsors e-bike. And the current e-bike of his sponsor is really good, but no dji motor. But there are lots of bike companies that have the dji motor already in house and build prototypes.
HOWEVER…
There are management concerns (I assume that counts for all bike brands the same) if dji who are a large corporation, decide/calculate/figure that the bike industry isn’t worthy the revenue their motor brings in and choose to discontinue the bike motor, you then have a bunch of bikes out in the field and no more spare parts. After all, dealing with Chinese, isn’t always easy. Not trying to bash them, it’s simply that a lot of people didn’t experience great customer service from Chinese companies and they’re not necessarily known for that either. And it would suck to for the bike manufacturer and obviously for the customer, if you can’t get spare parts for the motor.
Plus the dji cranks bend. Not during normal pedaling but if you properly case a jump, their cranks bend i.e. the pedals point down. Easy fix, choose different cranks, but this could hint other poor choices in material and/or parts strength
On the other hand, a close friend of the pro rider runs a large bike shop that sells Amflow bikes, has people storming into his shop simply asking for Amflow because of the motor. They don’t care about the bike.
Anyway. Just what I picked up from some nerdy conversations…
US Department of Defense classify DJI as a "Chinese Military Company". I'd imagine that alone will be plenty to ward off many of the bigger, more...
US Department of Defense classify DJI as a "Chinese Military Company". I'd imagine that alone will be plenty to ward off many of the bigger, more conservative brands. Especially as we approach another 4yrs of trump tariffs.
Taken with Niantic's training an AI with all the data it amassed from PokemonGo it's way too easy to see how that info could be used for ill. I'm not anti ebike, but I am anti unscrupulous data acquisition.
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a...
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a mtb with the weight shifts and traction variation.
Maybe it could be integrated with ABS, but then I wonder if regen would create enough energy to offset the power demands of ABS systems?
Nothing against your comment, but just reading that, and then realizing that this forum is discussing advancing ways to make bikes more electronic just made me shudder a little.
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the...
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the ideas. It would require a completely custom drivetrain solution fkm the cranks to the rear wheel - custom motor, gearbox and a direct connection between the motor and rear wheel. That means either in hub motor or a direct chain/belt connection with no tensioners. Which means a single pivot suspension layout with a concentric pivot to the output ring.
Then there is the question of activating and modulating the recovery, this session occurred before abs on bikes was a reality. And another question is the amount of recovery that is possible with, realistically, rear wheel only, the control or the calibration of the system should be a pain in the ass with a mountain bike and where you would be doing the energy recovery given the variability of surfaces and grip levels, etc.
Kudos to anybody making that happen in a way where it would be genuinely useful over just a marketing gimmick that nobody cares about 3 months after the release.
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a...
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a mtb with the weight shifts and traction variation.
Maybe it could be integrated with ABS, but then I wonder if regen would create enough energy to offset the power demands of ABS systems?
Regen on mid drives seems difficult and highly inefficient to implement, but for hub motors mated to a brake sensor could work (how my hybrid regens).Back...
Regen on mid drives seems difficult and highly inefficient to implement, but for hub motors mated to a brake sensor could work (how my hybrid regens).
Back to rumors the entire specialized gravity team were testing in Tahoe and Bruni’s insta post on it mentioned ‘new bike is fast’. Maybe a revised layout proto update or they’re finally on the production frame?
I heard the “new” bike looks nothing like what they have now. Heard it may even have an interesting drivetrain set up
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the...
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the ideas. It would require a completely custom drivetrain solution fkm the cranks to the rear wheel - custom motor, gearbox and a direct connection between the motor and rear wheel. That means either in hub motor or a direct chain/belt connection with no tensioners. Which means a single pivot suspension layout with a concentric pivot to the output ring.
Then there is the question of activating and modulating the recovery, this session occurred before abs on bikes was a reality. And another question is the amount of recovery that is possible with, realistically, rear wheel only, the control or the calibration of the system should be a pain in the ass with a mountain bike and where you would be doing the energy recovery given the variability of surfaces and grip levels, etc.
Kudos to anybody making that happen in a way where it would be genuinely useful over just a marketing gimmick that nobody cares about 3 months after the release.
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a...
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a mtb with the weight shifts and traction variation.
Maybe it could be integrated with ABS, but then I wonder if regen would create enough energy to offset the power demands of ABS systems?
I had wondered about a 2-stage braking system where the lever first engages a dynamo-style hub that harvests some energy and provides light braking without using the discs, then pulling further activates the regular brakes. Then the rider gets control over the front/rear split, or only use it on the rear wheel if thats better. Could be a way to control speed on descents which people would often drag their brakes without cooking the brake system. Should be easier to integrate with regular mid mount motors and drivetrains?
With the dropper cabling conundrum - why aren't cables integrated in to the tubes from the factory? You could literally weave them in to the carbon. A kind of standardised (oh wait, theres the problem........) harness or connector could provide a link from the bars to the back end without a mess of cables in the way. Plug in whichever components you need at the back and the front end would have dedicated pinouts for each controller. If you don't want to use it they won't be in the way.
Another idea for the dropper post is 2 strips down the front and back seat tube with spring contacts on the post so theres no wires but still a physical contact? Weatherproofing to prevent a short might be a problem but it allows the post to be at any height and the connector always makes contact.
Sorry sometime I confuse "tech rumours" with "random crap I think of and don't have anywhere else to write about it"
I talked to a factory rider of a well known d2c brand. He also had ridden an Amflow bike with the dji motor and said he’s...
I talked to a factory rider of a well known d2c brand. He also had ridden an Amflow bike with the dji motor and said he’s never ridden a bike with this good of a motor. He rode stuff up that he considered unridable on any other e-bike including his own sponsors e-bike. And the current e-bike of his sponsor is really good, but no dji motor. But there are lots of bike companies that have the dji motor already in house and build prototypes.
HOWEVER…
There are management concerns (I assume that counts for all bike brands the same) if dji who are a large corporation, decide/calculate/figure that the bike industry isn’t worthy the revenue their motor brings in and choose to discontinue the bike motor, you then have a bunch of bikes out in the field and no more spare parts. After all, dealing with Chinese, isn’t always easy. Not trying to bash them, it’s simply that a lot of people didn’t experience great customer service from Chinese companies and they’re not necessarily known for that either. And it would suck to for the bike manufacturer and obviously for the customer, if you can’t get spare parts for the motor.
Plus the dji cranks bend. Not during normal pedaling but if you properly case a jump, their cranks bend i.e. the pedals point down. Easy fix, choose different cranks, but this could hint other poor choices in material and/or parts strength
On the other hand, a close friend of the pro rider runs a large bike shop that sells Amflow bikes, has people storming into his shop simply asking for Amflow because of the motor. They don’t care about the bike.
Anyway. Just what I picked up from some nerdy conversations…
There's a good number of e-bike motor manufacturers out there trying to get into the market. There's a good reason why you predominantly see Shimano and Bosch on full-power, and the reasoning is exactly what you said.
I talked to a factory rider of a well known d2c brand. He also had ridden an Amflow bike with the dji motor and said he’s...
I talked to a factory rider of a well known d2c brand. He also had ridden an Amflow bike with the dji motor and said he’s never ridden a bike with this good of a motor. He rode stuff up that he considered unridable on any other e-bike including his own sponsors e-bike. And the current e-bike of his sponsor is really good, but no dji motor. But there are lots of bike companies that have the dji motor already in house and build prototypes.
HOWEVER…
There are management concerns (I assume that counts for all bike brands the same) if dji who are a large corporation, decide/calculate/figure that the bike industry isn’t worthy the revenue their motor brings in and choose to discontinue the bike motor, you then have a bunch of bikes out in the field and no more spare parts. After all, dealing with Chinese, isn’t always easy. Not trying to bash them, it’s simply that a lot of people didn’t experience great customer service from Chinese companies and they’re not necessarily known for that either. And it would suck to for the bike manufacturer and obviously for the customer, if you can’t get spare parts for the motor.
Plus the dji cranks bend. Not during normal pedaling but if you properly case a jump, their cranks bend i.e. the pedals point down. Easy fix, choose different cranks, but this could hint other poor choices in material and/or parts strength
On the other hand, a close friend of the pro rider runs a large bike shop that sells Amflow bikes, has people storming into his shop simply asking for Amflow because of the motor. They don’t care about the bike.
Anyway. Just what I picked up from some nerdy conversations…
Second on the concerns with long term support. Given what we've seen from the road world with Chinese electronic drivetrains, their views on product releases and updates are very different from how most Western consumers look at it. I think Ltwoo were selling 3 different iterations of their flagship drivetrain at the same time under the same name, and the consumers had no idea that there were differences or updates. Not saying it's going to be the same with the DJI motor being an OEM product, but I definitely would not be the guy to jump on them early.
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the...
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the ideas. It would require a completely custom drivetrain solution fkm the cranks to the rear wheel - custom motor, gearbox and a direct connection between the motor and rear wheel. That means either in hub motor or a direct chain/belt connection with no tensioners. Which means a single pivot suspension layout with a concentric pivot to the output ring.
Then there is the question of activating and modulating the recovery, this session occurred before abs on bikes was a reality. And another question is the amount of recovery that is possible with, realistically, rear wheel only, the control or the calibration of the system should be a pain in the ass with a mountain bike and where you would be doing the energy recovery given the variability of surfaces and grip levels, etc.
Kudos to anybody making that happen in a way where it would be genuinely useful over just a marketing gimmick that nobody cares about 3 months after the release.
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a...
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a mtb with the weight shifts and traction variation.
Maybe it could be integrated with ABS, but then I wonder if regen would create enough energy to offset the power demands of ABS systems?
I had wondered about a 2-stage braking system where the lever first engages a dynamo-style hub that harvests some energy and provides light braking without using...
I had wondered about a 2-stage braking system where the lever first engages a dynamo-style hub that harvests some energy and provides light braking without using the discs, then pulling further activates the regular brakes. Then the rider gets control over the front/rear split, or only use it on the rear wheel if thats better. Could be a way to control speed on descents which people would often drag their brakes without cooking the brake system. Should be easier to integrate with regular mid mount motors and drivetrains?
With the dropper cabling conundrum - why aren't cables integrated in to the tubes from the factory? You could literally weave them in to the carbon. A kind of standardised (oh wait, theres the problem........) harness or connector could provide a link from the bars to the back end without a mess of cables in the way. Plug in whichever components you need at the back and the front end would have dedicated pinouts for each controller. If you don't want to use it they won't be in the way.
Another idea for the dropper post is 2 strips down the front and back seat tube with spring contacts on the post so theres no wires but still a physical contact? Weatherproofing to prevent a short might be a problem but it allows the post to be at any height and the connector always makes contact.
Sorry sometime I confuse "tech rumours" with "random crap I think of and don't have anywhere else to write about it"
All of this screams of industry wide standardisation. Talking about it screams about the need for a industry standardisation working group...
couldn't a North American company come up with a similar or better system than DJI? I would think NA is more technically advanced than China but maybe not in the electrical realm?
couldn't a North American company come up with a similar or better system than DJI? I would think NA is more technically advanced than China but...
couldn't a North American company come up with a similar or better system than DJI? I would think NA is more technically advanced than China but maybe not in the electrical realm?
I don't know where you get the idea that NA is more technologically advanced than China. At least on the electric car front, China's putting out better products than the US or Germany from what I've read.
couldn't a North American company come up with a similar or better system than DJI? I would think NA is more technically advanced than China but...
couldn't a North American company come up with a similar or better system than DJI? I would think NA is more technically advanced than China but maybe not in the electrical realm?
I don't know where you get the idea that NA is more technologically advanced than China. At least on the electric car front, China's putting out...
I don't know where you get the idea that NA is more technologically advanced than China. At least on the electric car front, China's putting out better products than the US or Germany from what I've read.
Yeah unsurprisingly when you outsource all of your technology production for 30 or 40 years, those people get really really good at it...... especially when it comes to manufacturing something to a price. I'm sure a lot of western companies could build a great competitor to DJI but it might cost about three times as much! Are people willing to pay that much for something just because it isn't Chinese? We also forget that products made in China aren't sometimes bad because of where they are made, they are bad because they were made to a spec and a price that their (probably american) company wanted.
The problem with jumping on an ebike with a new motor from a new (to MTB ) company is all the unknowns when it comes to support, regardless of where it was designed or built. Ebike motors and batteries are not like other bike components - if your bike comes with a sexy sounding new shock that turns out to be unreliable, you can replace it with another brand. You can't do that with batteries or motors (yet).
This is a real concern since none of the existing motor/battery manufacturers have a perfect track record. Even if you get an ebike from a brand that has really great warranty support (like Santa Cruz), when it comes to motor/battery issues they will pass you or your dealer off to the motor's warranty/support department. If that's dodgy or slow or has no spare parts available, you could be waiting months to get issues resolved. If the motor company goes belly up, or stops making parts available, then your expensive ebike instantly turns into a collection of parts. I just recently saw a guy on the local buy/sell thread trying to unload parts from his dead 2021 Kinevo because it costs more to replace the dead motor than the complete bike would be worth over the value of the parts... and that's just 3 years old.
Not sure about the current state, but apparently the middrives from Bosch, Brose and SL units from Specialized were all based on automotive BLDC motors with some adaptations. I think it was a case of an electric water pump, an electric power steering motor and the like being reused.
This was done to reuse the stamping tools for the stator and rotor as in the beginning the investment didn't make as much sense or the reuse was a more cost optimal option. Not sure what the state is like today, but it's possible they went to more custom built motors with later generations. But yeah, to do what DJI did I'd say it would require optimizing EVERYTHING. At least to get the power to weight ratio they apparently have. And throw around some different concepts and evaluate them thoroughly as the choice of motor (torque vs. speed levels) and the resulting gearbox can likely have a big influence as well because of losses in the gearbox, forces in the bearing supports which influence the casing design, etc.
One company that manufactures MTB suspension is currently already doing kinetic energy recovery damping for factory motorsport applications. It is not one of the big 2...
One company that manufactures MTB suspension is currently already doing kinetic energy recovery damping for factory motorsport applications. It is not one of the big 2 either.
So its Ohlins, right? unless I'm missing something, only Fox, Ohlins, Formula, and BOS make both MTB and other suspension products, so that's who it's gotta be
One company that manufactures MTB suspension is currently already doing kinetic energy recovery damping for factory motorsport applications. It is not one of the big 2...
One company that manufactures MTB suspension is currently already doing kinetic energy recovery damping for factory motorsport applications. It is not one of the big 2 either.
So its Ohlins, right? unless I'm missing something, only Fox, Ohlins, Formula, and BOS make both MTB and other suspension products, so that's who it's gotta...
So its Ohlins, right? unless I'm missing something, only Fox, Ohlins, Formula, and BOS make both MTB and other suspension products, so that's who it's gotta be
couldn't a North American company come up with a similar or better system than DJI? I would think NA is more technically advanced than China but...
couldn't a North American company come up with a similar or better system than DJI? I would think NA is more technically advanced than China but maybe not in the electrical realm?
One company that manufactures MTB suspension is currently already doing kinetic energy recovery damping for factory motorsport applications. It is not one of the big 2...
One company that manufactures MTB suspension is currently already doing kinetic energy recovery damping for factory motorsport applications. It is not one of the big 2 either.
So its Ohlins, right? unless I'm missing something, only Fox, Ohlins, Formula, and BOS make both MTB and other suspension products, so that's who it's gotta...
So its Ohlins, right? unless I'm missing something, only Fox, Ohlins, Formula, and BOS make both MTB and other suspension products, so that's who it's gotta be
Do we count WP since they are on those crappy GasGas Ebikes? I know its just a more complex DVO Jade X, but I mean, its more than the difference between Fox and Marz I guess?
Sounds like all of the downsides of cables plus all of the downsides of wireless to me. Annoying to install, annoying to remove, needs to be charged, it's expensive and heavy, and there's more things to go wrong.
This has been my big prediction for the last couple of years - with more batteries being used it makes a ton of sense to have some kind of regenerating capability on modern bikes. Especially with larger riders on e-bikes who will always get less battery life (because physics), they will now have more kinetic energy that can be recovered through the suspension or braking. The suspension one could have interesting benefits since generating electricity could be used to supplement hydraulic damping so the energy harvesting would be used to add damping which kills 2 birds with 1 stone. The bike makers would have a hydraulic damper with the minimum tune needed, then instead of firmer tunes for heavy riders you increase the amount of harvesting the system does and the extra damping makes the bike ride better while also extending your battery life.
Rob Roskopp already alluded to this a year or so ago in an interview he did - anyone noticed where he is at now? I think Specialized has a lot of new technology in the pipeline around this space
Alternatively the magnet clips someone posted are a super tidy way to do it - no fragile external connectors anywhere on the ocmponent and can be sealed much better. Wireless components will only become more common, as anyone who has replaced the cable on an e-bike with attest to!
Regarding wireless droppers, I wonder if it would be possible to make a similar system to the archer d1x gear shifting system. A remote, Bluetooth activated servo that opens/closes the cable end of any current cable actuated dropper post with a small cable spool. Surely it wouldn’t be too hard to do? The only bikes that it would struggle with are ones that have interrupted seat tubes like Santa Cruz, forbidden, etc
Don’t know if anyone with the tech know how is trying this already…But might bring wireless droppers to more people, and get the drop/looks that most people are after.
I talked to a factory rider of a well known d2c brand. He also had ridden an Amflow bike with the dji motor and said he’s never ridden a bike with this good of a motor. He rode stuff up that he considered unridable on any other e-bike including his own sponsors e-bike. And the current e-bike of his sponsor is really good, but no dji motor. But there are lots of bike companies that have the dji motor already in house and build prototypes.
HOWEVER…
There are management concerns (I assume that counts for all bike brands the same) if dji who are a large corporation, decide/calculate/figure that the bike industry isn’t worthy the revenue their motor brings in and choose to discontinue the bike motor, you then have a bunch of bikes out in the field and no more spare parts. After all, dealing with Chinese, isn’t always easy. Not trying to bash them, it’s simply that a lot of people didn’t experience great customer service from Chinese companies and they’re not necessarily known for that either. And it would suck to for the bike manufacturer and obviously for the customer, if you can’t get spare parts for the motor.
Plus the dji cranks bend. Not during normal pedaling but if you properly case a jump, their cranks bend i.e. the pedals point down. Easy fix, choose different cranks, but this could hint other poor choices in material and/or parts strength
On the other hand, a close friend of the pro rider runs a large bike shop that sells Amflow bikes, has people storming into his shop simply asking for Amflow because of the motor. They don’t care about the bike.
Anyway. Just what I picked up from some nerdy conversations…
One company that manufactures MTB suspension is currently already doing kinetic energy recovery damping for factory motorsport applications. It is not one of the big 2 either.
US Department of Defense classify DJI as a "Chinese Military Company". I'd imagine that alone will be plenty to ward off many of the bigger, more conservative brands. Especially as we approach another 4yrs of trump tariffs.
Should be simple enough, the only problem being how to get the signal to the actuator. Frames are either steel, titanium or aluminium, all obviously conduct electricity, while carbon fibre also conducts electricity, but not sure how well. The metallic bikes for sure, possibly also carbon fibre bikes, are effectively Faraday cages which means no signal can get to the inside, more or less...
I agree, but still it works for people integrating AXS electronics in the handlebars or inside their frames. Don't understand how though.
Regarding energy recovery, I was invited to a brainstorming session by a local sports equipment brand just before covid where energy recovery was one of the ideas. It would require a completely custom drivetrain solution fkm the cranks to the rear wheel - custom motor, gearbox and a direct connection between the motor and rear wheel. That means either in hub motor or a direct chain/belt connection with no tensioners. Which means a single pivot suspension layout with a concentric pivot to the output ring.
Then there is the question of activating and modulating the recovery, this session occurred before abs on bikes was a reality. And another question is the amount of recovery that is possible with, realistically, rear wheel only, the control or the calibration of the system should be a pain in the ass with a mountain bike and where you would be doing the energy recovery given the variability of surfaces and grip levels, etc.
Kudos to anybody making that happen in a way where it would be genuinely useful over just a marketing gimmick that nobody cares about 3 months after the release.
I might be wrong about the Faraday cage factor of everything...
I knew there must have been a reason no one had done it up to now, seems too simple for someone cleverer than me to not try it…
Even F1 has trouble balancing brake bias with the effects of regenerative braking on the rear wheels. It would seem to be much harder on a mtb with the weight shifts and traction variation.
Maybe it could be integrated with ABS, but then I wonder if regen would create enough energy to offset the power demands of ABS systems?
Regen on mid drives seems difficult and highly inefficient to implement, but for hub motors mated to a brake sensor could work (how my hybrid regens).
Back to rumors the entire specialized gravity team were testing in Tahoe and Bruni’s insta post on it mentioned ‘new bike is fast’. Maybe a revised layout proto update or they’re finally on the production frame?
Taken with Niantic's training an AI with all the data it amassed from PokemonGo it's way too easy to see how that info could be used for ill. I'm not anti ebike, but I am anti unscrupulous data acquisition.
Nothing against your comment, but just reading that, and then realizing that this forum is discussing advancing ways to make bikes more electronic just made me shudder a little.
I heard the “new” bike looks nothing like what they have now. Heard it may even have an interesting drivetrain set up
I had wondered about a 2-stage braking system where the lever first engages a dynamo-style hub that harvests some energy and provides light braking without using the discs, then pulling further activates the regular brakes. Then the rider gets control over the front/rear split, or only use it on the rear wheel if thats better. Could be a way to control speed on descents which people would often drag their brakes without cooking the brake system. Should be easier to integrate with regular mid mount motors and drivetrains?
With the dropper cabling conundrum - why aren't cables integrated in to the tubes from the factory? You could literally weave them in to the carbon. A kind of standardised (oh wait, theres the problem........) harness or connector could provide a link from the bars to the back end without a mess of cables in the way. Plug in whichever components you need at the back and the front end would have dedicated pinouts for each controller. If you don't want to use it they won't be in the way.
Another idea for the dropper post is 2 strips down the front and back seat tube with spring contacts on the post so theres no wires but still a physical contact? Weatherproofing to prevent a short might be a problem but it allows the post to be at any height and the connector always makes contact.
Sorry sometime I confuse "tech rumours" with "random crap I think of and don't have anywhere else to write about it"
There's a good number of e-bike motor manufacturers out there trying to get into the market. There's a good reason why you predominantly see Shimano and Bosch on full-power, and the reasoning is exactly what you said.
Second on the concerns with long term support. Given what we've seen from the road world with Chinese electronic drivetrains, their views on product releases and updates are very different from how most Western consumers look at it. I think Ltwoo were selling 3 different iterations of their flagship drivetrain at the same time under the same name, and the consumers had no idea that there were differences or updates. Not saying it's going to be the same with the DJI motor being an OEM product, but I definitely would not be the guy to jump on them early.
All of this screams of industry wide standardisation. Talking about it screams about the need for a industry standardisation working group...
couldn't a North American company come up with a similar or better system than DJI? I would think NA is more technically advanced than China but maybe not in the electrical realm?
I don't know where you get the idea that NA is more technologically advanced than China. At least on the electric car front, China's putting out better products than the US or Germany from what I've read.
Yeah unsurprisingly when you outsource all of your technology production for 30 or 40 years, those people get really really good at it...... especially when it comes to manufacturing something to a price. I'm sure a lot of western companies could build a great competitor to DJI but it might cost about three times as much! Are people willing to pay that much for something just because it isn't Chinese? We also forget that products made in China aren't sometimes bad because of where they are made, they are bad because they were made to a spec and a price that their (probably american) company wanted.
The problem with jumping on an ebike with a new motor from a new (to MTB ) company is all the unknowns when it comes to support, regardless of where it was designed or built. Ebike motors and batteries are not like other bike components - if your bike comes with a sexy sounding new shock that turns out to be unreliable, you can replace it with another brand. You can't do that with batteries or motors (yet).
This is a real concern since none of the existing motor/battery manufacturers have a perfect track record. Even if you get an ebike from a brand that has really great warranty support (like Santa Cruz), when it comes to motor/battery issues they will pass you or your dealer off to the motor's warranty/support department. If that's dodgy or slow or has no spare parts available, you could be waiting months to get issues resolved. If the motor company goes belly up, or stops making parts available, then your expensive ebike instantly turns into a collection of parts. I just recently saw a guy on the local buy/sell thread trying to unload parts from his dead 2021 Kinevo because it costs more to replace the dead motor than the complete bike would be worth over the value of the parts... and that's just 3 years old.
Not sure about the current state, but apparently the middrives from Bosch, Brose and SL units from Specialized were all based on automotive BLDC motors with some adaptations. I think it was a case of an electric water pump, an electric power steering motor and the like being reused.
This was done to reuse the stamping tools for the stator and rotor as in the beginning the investment didn't make as much sense or the reuse was a more cost optimal option. Not sure what the state is like today, but it's possible they went to more custom built motors with later generations. But yeah, to do what DJI did I'd say it would require optimizing EVERYTHING. At least to get the power to weight ratio they apparently have. And throw around some different concepts and evaluate them thoroughly as the choice of motor (torque vs. speed levels) and the resulting gearbox can likely have a big influence as well because of losses in the gearbox, forces in the bearing supports which influence the casing design, etc.
So its Ohlins, right? unless I'm missing something, only Fox, Ohlins, Formula, and BOS make both MTB and other suspension products, so that's who it's gotta be
EXT also:
lol
Do we count WP since they are on those crappy GasGas Ebikes? I know its just a more complex DVO Jade X, but I mean, its more than the difference between Fox and Marz I guess?
https://www.mtbr.com/threads/bikeyoke-wireless.1233215/page-2?post_id=1…