MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Suns_PSD
Posts
356
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10/7/2015
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Austin, TX US
11/2/2024 4:38pm
Sag is a good starting point but in practise the "progressive" cans will run with more sag or else they build force too fast in the...

Sag is a good starting point but in practise the "progressive" cans will run with more sag or else they build force too fast in the middle of the travel. Likewise coil shocks will have a different sag measurement again. I guess the graph does a good job of amplifying the differences between each option, by fixing that one variable but it might help if they included what pressure produced all of those curves too.

Suns_PSD wrote:
Dougal, I know you are not a believer in sag as a primary set up tool, but I disagree with you. They did it right by normalizing...

Dougal, I know you are not a believer in sag as a primary set up tool, but I disagree with you.

 

They did it right by normalizing around the same base sag number, imo.

 

Good to see you around D.

oh wow, theres probably only 2 people who I would genuinely be offended by getting confused with so I must have phrased that post very poorly...

oh wow, theres probably only 2 people who I would genuinely be offended by getting confused with so I must have phrased that post very poorly sorry....I thought the fact I still acknowledged a good reason why the plot would use sag would be the biggest giveaway?

@ebruner your hat is safe! 

Apologies! Smile

 

1
Primoz
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SI
11/3/2024 6:28am

There was a discussion not too long ago about DW bikes and Dave's approach to bike development and what it looks like. I think @jeff.brines mentioned Tim Krueger on Bikes and Death podcast touching on some more details regarding business in the bike world, but Tim (being a friend of Dave apparently) also mentions this process Dave has (well, they have) regarding bike design.

https://bikesordeath.com/ep-193-tim-krueger-esker-cycles-ceo/

It starts at about 1:59:00 in the audio version (not sure where it is in the video version).

5
Evil96
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Portogruaro, VE IT
11/3/2024 10:26am

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

3
Packe777
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8/13/2020
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Novi Sad RS
11/3/2024 10:36am Edited Date/Time 11/3/2024 2:36pm
Packe777 wrote:
Evil96 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.

1
3
Evil96
Posts
802
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8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE IT
11/3/2024 4:34pm
Packe777 wrote:
Evil96 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

Packe777 wrote:
 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll...

 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.

Got an easy answer there but the brake thread might be the better place for this 

6
11/3/2024 6:03pm
Packe777 wrote:
 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll...

 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.

I have the LH4s and been running them as a pretty heavy guy (93kg) for the past 4 months (including a trip to morzine). They've been rock solid and one of the easiest I've had to bleed. Pads last a long time and are cheap as well.

2
Primoz
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Location
SI
11/3/2024 8:59pm Edited Date/Time 11/3/2024 9:00pm
Packe777 wrote:
Evil96 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

9
2
sethimus
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870
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Location
CH
11/3/2024 10:35pm
Packe777 wrote:
Evil96 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

best would be like intend do it

4
Evil96
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Portogruaro, VE IT
11/3/2024 10:54pm
Packe777 wrote:
Evil96 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

meh, i feel the way Intend did it is the way to do it if you really want them, although it's been shown it's pretty useless. Usually, like on Shimano and here, it causes more problems that it solves. Rattling, noise and stuff.

No hate here, just an observation.

 

2
Primoz
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Location
SI
11/3/2024 11:15pm

But they only cover half the pad and minus the piston at that, plus the refrigerator is more complicated and needs to have a matching interface in the caliper (where is then the seal for the piston?).

The "best" way is dependant on a lot of factors. Manufacturability should be one of them. 

11/3/2024 11:21pm

How can the Sight LT change the Range in Norco’s lineup while being a 160mm bike with the Range being a 170mm one (which can go all the way up to 200+ with the help of WRP)? Something doesn’t compute….

1
11/3/2024 11:45pm
How can the Sight LT change the Range in Norco’s lineup while being a 160mm bike with the Range being a 170mm one (which can go...

How can the Sight LT change the Range in Norco’s lineup while being a 160mm bike with the Range being a 170mm one (which can go all the way up to 200+ with the help of WRP)? Something doesn’t compute….

My guess the range is being discontinued and the new dh bike must be coming out soonish.  And short stoking the new dh bike is always a possibility.


Assuming they keep the shore and shore park as more budget friendly options that’s a very full lineup.

6
Packe777
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Novi Sad RS
11/4/2024 12:33am Edited Date/Time 11/4/2024 12:36am
Packe777 wrote:
 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll...

 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.

I have the LH4s and been running them as a pretty heavy guy (93kg) for the past 4 months (including a trip to morzine). They've been...

I have the LH4s and been running them as a pretty heavy guy (93kg) for the past 4 months (including a trip to morzine). They've been rock solid and one of the easiest I've had to bleed. Pads last a long time and are cheap as well.

Thx for the info. I'm exactly your weight 93kg,  but with all the gear and kitted on top around 96-97kg. 

Uncle Cliffy
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3/11/2010
Location
Medford, OR US
11/4/2024 6:08am
My guess the range is being discontinued and the new dh bike must be coming out soonish.  And short stoking the new dh bike is always...

My guess the range is being discontinued and the new dh bike must be coming out soonish.  And short stoking the new dh bike is always a possibility.


Assuming they keep the shore and shore park as more budget friendly options that’s a very full lineup.

Range is definitely getting dropped. It’s an incredible bike, but heavy. I’ve been contemplating doing the WRP conversion myself…

3
Jotegr
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Location
Interior, BC CA
11/4/2024 8:51am

I heard Range will come back as an independent platform for MY2026. It'll be like the Sight and Optic but even bigger. 

1
mtbman99
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Location
CA
11/4/2024 9:57am
Packe777 wrote:
Evil96 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud. 

It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.

6
Primoz
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SI
11/4/2024 10:41am

Copper grease should work a treat for this use case. 

2
11/4/2024 11:06am
Evil96 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

mtbman99 wrote:
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated...

There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud. 

It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.

Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally the surfaces need to be machined or lapped as flat as possible which just adds another expense. Would be interesting to compare how much these help versus something like a little duct that channeled air through the calliper instead

4
dwhere
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Location
dirty, DE US
11/4/2024 11:27am
Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

mtbman99 wrote:
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated...

There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud. 

It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.

Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally...

Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally the surfaces need to be machined or lapped as flat as possible which just adds another expense. Would be interesting to compare how much these help versus something like a little duct that channeled air through the calliper instead

Just quickly watching the video and reading the comments:

Could they have been looking to thermally isolate the calipers from the pads? As opposed Shimano looking to directly cool their pads? 

7
veefour
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Cinderford GB
11/4/2024 11:35am Edited Date/Time 11/4/2024 11:37am
Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

mtbman99 wrote:
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated...

There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud. 

It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.

Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally...

Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally the surfaces need to be machined or lapped as flat as possible which just adds another expense. Would be interesting to compare how much these help versus something like a little duct that channeled air through the calliper instead

There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.

2
TimBud
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530
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Location
GB
11/4/2024 11:40am
veefour wrote:
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in...

There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.

 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.

Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost

3
veefour
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851
Joined
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Location
Cinderford GB
11/4/2024 11:46am
veefour wrote:
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in...

There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.

TimBud wrote:
 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as...

 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.

Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost

Aren't the Shimano versions one piece though? Probably makes quite a difference.

2
Eae903
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10/20/2023
Location
Laramie, WY US
11/4/2024 11:56am
veefour wrote:
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in...

There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.

TimBud wrote:
 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as...

 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.

Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost

veefour wrote:

Aren't the Shimano versions one piece though? Probably makes quite a difference.

The pad material is attached to the finned portion and that is attached to a separate backing plate on Shimano pads if I remember correctly. 

2
FaahkEet
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Location
Falls Church, VA US
11/4/2024 12:55pm

The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on the outside edge of the rotors.

15
MrDuck
Posts
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2/2/2021
Location
CA
11/4/2024 1:01pm
TimBud wrote:
 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as...

 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.

Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost

veefour wrote:

Aren't the Shimano versions one piece though? Probably makes quite a difference.

Eae903 wrote:

The pad material is attached to the finned portion and that is attached to a separate backing plate on Shimano pads if I remember correctly. 

Correct - on Sintered pads it's [braking material][finned alloy plate][steel back plate], while resin is just [braking material][finned alloy back plate].

While it's anecdotal, I am very pleased with the Shimano finned pads. I don't know what the difference is in a compound between D02S, H03C and N04C. However, going from D02S to H03C has made a very noticeable difference in my brake pads' lifespan. I did make that change at a time I also singnificantly stepped up my riding, so pad wear may reflect that as well. 

I had a rattling pad issue once, solved it with spreading the spring a bit more. I'll probably pay more attention to it now that my bike is quieter overall.

I do like the Lewis' approach. Got a pair of the Uberbike pads on my commuter. The downside there is you need their own pads with thinner back plate, and as others have mentioned, the heat transfer will certainly suffer. However it'll still carry some heat away, looks neat and I'm all for keeping brakes consistent. As long as it's quiet, I'm into it. 

It's an interesting argument that one would like to see their brake pistons. I try to optimize bikes for on trail performance, and while ease of maintenance sure is a factor, how often do people inspect their pistons? If one side advances more than other is easily visible with fins, and only once in 12 years I've had my 4 piston brakes advance unevenly on one side, where seeing pistons would have been beneficial for diagnosis. 

1
1
ballz
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7/30/2024
Location
Ouagadougou EH
11/4/2024 2:11pm
FaahkEet wrote:
The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on...

The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on the outside edge of the rotors.

Just connect them to a piss tube in your pants.

9
11/4/2024 3:23pm
FaahkEet wrote:
The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on...

The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on the outside edge of the rotors.

ballz wrote:

Just connect them to a piss tube in your pants.

This could have the added benefit of extra cooling conveniently being available at the same time as sudden, extreme braking events......

8
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