MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Primoz
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10/23/2024 10:07pm
One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've...

One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've heard of many pro riders using these, but I'm not aware of any company currently selling them. 

TEAMROBOT wrote:
You mean something like this? Not sure why you'd want to make a 29" fork even taller for a 27.5" front wheel, as it's already 20mm...

You mean something like this? Not sure why you'd want to make a 29" fork even taller for a 27.5" front wheel, as it's already 20mm taller than an equivalent 27.5" fork. But if you did, Reverse Components has you covered: https://reverse-components-usa.com/collections/headsets/products/reverse-angle-spacer

 

[EDIT: Wolf Tooth used to make one too that pressed into the lower headtube, but it's discontinued now. Probably because it's pretty sketchy. Specialized famously shipped their first gen 650b Stumpjumper with an extended lower headset cup as well, because it was a repurposed 29" front triangle).

To keep the ground to headset distance the same, to keep the geometry of the bike the same. 

A 29 fork is taller, but so is the axle compared to the ground. Putting a 27" wheel in a 29er fork will still drop the front end. 

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Marcus J
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10/23/2024 11:32pm Edited Date/Time 10/23/2024 11:35pm

A standardized (blasphemy!) oval'ish headset standard would be awesome that give +-10mm reach/lots of angle adjust

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bikelurker
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10/24/2024 2:22am Edited Date/Time 10/24/2024 2:22am
Marcus J wrote:

A standardized (blasphemy!) oval'ish headset standard would be awesome that give +-10mm reach/lots of angle adjust

As if bikes aren't expensive enough already, with those pesky round interference holes in place. Sounds like a good idea but I suppose it would be very dificult to implement, because of distortion/alignement issues. We can't afford the quality needed for that, with bikes costing 10k already, as shitly made as most of them are.

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j0lsrud
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10/24/2024 3:18am
Marcus J wrote:

A standardized (blasphemy!) oval'ish headset standard would be awesome that give +-10mm reach/lots of angle adjust

bikelurker wrote:
As if bikes aren't expensive enough already, with those pesky round interference holes in place. Sounds like a good idea but I suppose it would be...

As if bikes aren't expensive enough already, with those pesky round interference holes in place. Sounds like a good idea but I suppose it would be very dificult to implement, because of distortion/alignement issues. We can't afford the quality needed for that, with bikes costing 10k already, as shitly made as most of them are.

Canyon has a neat solution for reach adjustment on the Sender/ Strive. To sets of headset "cups" so the reach is 0 or + - 5mm. It would also be easier to make angle sets etc.

Watch the video about reach adjustments here:

https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/customer-service/mountain/sender/#video=adjust-reach-sender-cfr-2023 

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bikelurker
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10/24/2024 3:47am
Marcus J wrote:

A standardized (blasphemy!) oval'ish headset standard would be awesome that give +-10mm reach/lots of angle adjust

bikelurker wrote:
As if bikes aren't expensive enough already, with those pesky round interference holes in place. Sounds like a good idea but I suppose it would be...

As if bikes aren't expensive enough already, with those pesky round interference holes in place. Sounds like a good idea but I suppose it would be very dificult to implement, because of distortion/alignement issues. We can't afford the quality needed for that, with bikes costing 10k already, as shitly made as most of them are.

j0lsrud wrote:
Canyon has a neat solution for reach adjustment on the Sender/ Strive. To sets of headset "cups" so the reach is 0 or + - 5mm...

Canyon has a neat solution for reach adjustment on the Sender/ Strive. To sets of headset "cups" so the reach is 0 or + - 5mm. It would also be easier to make angle sets etc.

Watch the video about reach adjustments here:

https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/customer-service/mountain/sender/#video=adjust-reach-sender-cfr-2023 

I stand corrected😉

 

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ballz
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10/24/2024 5:42am Edited Date/Time 10/24/2024 5:43am
One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've...

One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've heard of many pro riders using these, but I'm not aware of any company currently selling them. 

TEAMROBOT wrote:
You mean something like this? Not sure why you'd want to make a 29" fork even taller for a 27.5" front wheel, as it's already 20mm...

You mean something like this? Not sure why you'd want to make a 29" fork even taller for a 27.5" front wheel, as it's already 20mm taller than an equivalent 27.5" fork. But if you did, Reverse Components has you covered: https://reverse-components-usa.com/collections/headsets/products/reverse-angle-spacer

 

[EDIT: Wolf Tooth used to make one too that pressed into the lower headtube, but it's discontinued now. Probably because it's pretty sketchy. Specialized famously shipped their first gen 650b Stumpjumper with an extended lower headset cup as well, because it was a repurposed 29" front triangle).

These work fine. I use them for making A2C longer or compensating for smaller wheel diameter when fiddling with 27.5 wheels in MX or full 29 setups. They are a super tight fit though, and I am not sure if they can ever be removed after installed and fully seated.

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jonkranked
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10/24/2024 5:49am
One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've...

One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've heard of many pro riders using these, but I'm not aware of any company currently selling them. 

TEAMROBOT wrote:
You mean something like this? Not sure why you'd want to make a 29" fork even taller for a 27.5" front wheel, as it's already 20mm...

You mean something like this? Not sure why you'd want to make a 29" fork even taller for a 27.5" front wheel, as it's already 20mm taller than an equivalent 27.5" fork. But if you did, Reverse Components has you covered: https://reverse-components-usa.com/collections/headsets/products/reverse-angle-spacer

 

[EDIT: Wolf Tooth used to make one too that pressed into the lower headtube, but it's discontinued now. Probably because it's pretty sketchy. Specialized famously shipped their first gen 650b Stumpjumper with an extended lower headset cup as well, because it was a repurposed 29" front triangle).

cane creek still offers a +3mm and +6mm crown race.  

someone else use to make a 10mm, but my google-fu is failing me.  i'll try again after more coffee. 

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jonkranked
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10/24/2024 5:56am
Marcus J wrote:
https://ridegg.com/pages/geoadjust-headset-tuningGuerilla gravity had some as well. And there is the Specialized Stumpy Evo / Levo etc one for angle adjustment, and Trek has something similar...

https://ridegg.com/pages/geoadjust-headset-tuning

Guerilla gravity had some as well. And there is the Specialized Stumpy Evo / Levo etc one for angle adjustment, and Trek has something similar I think.

the GG ones were a little different - since the frames had built in reach adjust - which means they are only compatible with the GG revved frames. it was an extra widget that went into the frame/headtube, and the headset bearing went into that. 

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Jotegr
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10/24/2024 5:59am
One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've...

One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've heard of many pro riders using these, but I'm not aware of any company currently selling them. 

TEAMROBOT wrote:
You mean something like this? Not sure why you'd want to make a 29" fork even taller for a 27.5" front wheel, as it's already 20mm...

You mean something like this? Not sure why you'd want to make a 29" fork even taller for a 27.5" front wheel, as it's already 20mm taller than an equivalent 27.5" fork. But if you did, Reverse Components has you covered: https://reverse-components-usa.com/collections/headsets/products/reverse-angle-spacer

 

[EDIT: Wolf Tooth used to make one too that pressed into the lower headtube, but it's discontinued now. Probably because it's pretty sketchy. Specialized famously shipped their first gen 650b Stumpjumper with an extended lower headset cup as well, because it was a repurposed 29" front triangle).

Any Rocky mountain dealer should have dozens of lower cups that came with every instinct to allow them to be converted to pipelines for the 2017-2020 generation.

Cane creek also makes an extended crown race but its like 6mm.

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Marcus J
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10/24/2024 6:01am
Marcus J wrote:
https://ridegg.com/pages/geoadjust-headset-tuningGuerilla gravity had some as well. And there is the Specialized Stumpy Evo / Levo etc one for angle adjustment, and Trek has something similar...

https://ridegg.com/pages/geoadjust-headset-tuning

Guerilla gravity had some as well. And there is the Specialized Stumpy Evo / Levo etc one for angle adjustment, and Trek has something similar I think.

jonkranked wrote:
the GG ones were a little different - since the frames had built in reach adjust - which means they are only compatible with the GG...

the GG ones were a little different - since the frames had built in reach adjust - which means they are only compatible with the GG revved frames. it was an extra widget that went into the frame/headtube, and the headset bearing went into that. 

Yes, all the current ones are like that, only compatible with the frame they are made for. A standardized size that does this would be nice. In a way, all headsets except IS has "an extra widget that went into the frame/headtube" Smile

10/24/2024 6:16am

Chiming in to the running smaller wheels and correcting geo: I've used a Cane Creek Angleset to make a full 29er with no flip chip mullet. The lower cup is 10mm and with it in the +1 steepening position paired with a 10mm longer fork it gets the BB back close to stock. I did this on an ebike and didn't bang the motor up more than usual.

Headset routing is the devil to most people because of maintenance, but giving up these adjustment options, reach and head angle are why it's the devil to me.

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FullSend
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10/24/2024 6:40am
Marcus J wrote:

A standardized (blasphemy!) oval'ish headset standard would be awesome that give +-10mm reach/lots of angle adjust

I do happen to know that a well-known component manufacturer proposed exactly this concept of a standardized oval geo-adjust headset to multiple big bike brands a couple of years ago - and they were laughed out of every office.

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HexonJuan
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10/24/2024 6:52am
One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've...

One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've heard of many pro riders using these, but I'm not aware of any company currently selling them. 

Depending on your set up, they exist: HS Extension – Production Privée

I'm running one on a 160 Status with a 29er fork. So far, so good. Going from a 29 to 27.5 front likely provided a bigger feel difference than any mm or two difference in front end height did. 

2
10/24/2024 7:28am
TEAMROBOT wrote:
You mean something like this? Not sure why you'd want to make a 29" fork even taller for a 27.5" front wheel, as it's already 20mm...

You mean something like this? Not sure why you'd want to make a 29" fork even taller for a 27.5" front wheel, as it's already 20mm taller than an equivalent 27.5" fork. But if you did, Reverse Components has you covered: https://reverse-components-usa.com/collections/headsets/products/reverse-angle-spacer

 

[EDIT: Wolf Tooth used to make one too that pressed into the lower headtube, but it's discontinued now. Probably because it's pretty sketchy. Specialized famously shipped their first gen 650b Stumpjumper with an extended lower headset cup as well, because it was a repurposed 29" front triangle).

Here;s a +15mm one that I use in place of a lock block that was preventing down tube contact. This plus the +10mm from a higher travel fork and I got 1 degree more needed headangle 

https://www.ninerbikes.com/niner-headset-zs-lower-cup/

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pinkrobe
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10/24/2024 8:07am
One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've...

One of the millions of companies selling billet pedals and stems should start selling spacers for 29er forks that optimize geo for 27.5 front wheels. I've heard of many pro riders using these, but I'm not aware of any company currently selling them. 

pinkrobe wrote:
I don't know if you can get them aftermarket, but Rocky Mountain sold the 2019 (?) Pipeline/Instinct with a ~10mm crown spacer so you could switch...

I don't know if you can get them aftermarket, but Rocky Mountain sold the 2019 (?) Pipeline/Instinct with a ~10mm crown spacer so you could switch front wheels and get the same geo. It sat under the crown race I think. I feel like it would be relatively easy to make one, but I am no engineer.

metadave wrote:
That was actually a ZS and EC cup set that you would swap out, pretty easy to do with a new lower cup if you can...

That was actually a ZS and EC cup set that you would swap out, pretty easy to do with a new lower cup if you can get the right ones. But that was also for a 29/27.5+ wheel mix which are close to the same size, so you might need a bit more to get something from it. 

You are correct! As soon as I read your post the memory flashed back into my head.

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Zuestman
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10/24/2024 8:12am
Marcus J wrote:

A standardized (blasphemy!) oval'ish headset standard would be awesome that give +-10mm reach/lots of angle adjust

FSA has a system called the RAS.  not a full +/- 10mm (20mm overall) but about +/-5mm.   Being shopped to companies right now with an open design so that it can become a standard.  Discussions on angle as well (though gets into a MULTITUDE of cup options if you combo it all).  We are trying... just need bike companies to buy in.  But the designs are out there and being shopped.

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Zuestman
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10/24/2024 8:14am
What are you talking about? The zero stack 56 headset all allows for the largest room of any headset that’s available.  You should be able to...

What are you talking about? The zero stack 56 headset all allows for the largest room of any headset that’s available.  You should be able to do 8 mm front and back with a straight. Fork and five mill front and back with a standard tapered fork  The only thing that offers more is that stupid ZS66 that a few companies use for E bikes for some reason.   

Who makes a tapered steerer compatible reach adjust ZS56/56? Work components only offers a ZS56 top, EC56 bottom for 1.125x1.5 tapered. They have reach adjusts for...

Who makes a tapered steerer compatible reach adjust ZS56/56? Work components only offers a ZS56 top, EC56 bottom for 1.125x1.5 tapered. They have reach adjusts for ZS56/66 and a ZS56/56 for 1.125 steerers. 

kperras wrote:
You cannot adjust the lower bearing position fore-aft in a tapered 1.5, ZS56 cup. There is 0 room for that. You can adjust the reach by a...

You cannot adjust the lower bearing position fore-aft in a tapered 1.5, ZS56 cup. There is 0 room for that. 

You can adjust the reach by a total of 10mm in a ZS66 cup.

Working for FSA I can 100% confirm that there is NO room in a ZS 56 HT to run a reach adjust for tapered.  some for straight.  The bigger issue for most users is getting the cups in straight (yes this really is an end user/shop issue that has to be heavily considered having dealt with other systems).

The better option is the RAS reach adjust.  Luckily MTB companies I think want to go away from internal routing, so more open to this option.  We are trying....

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Primoz
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10/24/2024 8:25am Edited Date/Time 10/24/2024 8:26am

Some kind of guiding for it in the system would probably aleviate alignment issues. Maybe a groove in the headtube and a pin in the headset cup to be guided into the groove or something along those lines (if you want to keep an easy to make round headtube).

Said grooves and/or pins could be executed by the use of standard steel pins pressed into a correctly placed hole on either the frame or the headset cup.

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Zuestman
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10/24/2024 8:33am
Primoz wrote:
Some kind of guiding for it in the system would probably aleviate alignment issues. Maybe a groove in the headtube and a pin in the headset...

Some kind of guiding for it in the system would probably aleviate alignment issues. Maybe a groove in the headtube and a pin in the headset cup to be guided into the groove or something along those lines (if you want to keep an easy to make round headtube).

Said grooves and/or pins could be executed by the use of standard steel pins pressed into a correctly placed hole on either the frame or the headset cup.

oh agreed there are "simple" ways to fix this... then getting then standardized, and correct tolerances around the industry is a different matter... as an industry we can't get a round hole done right... now add a precise pin location to that.....

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Primoz
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10/24/2024 8:54am

Yeah I know... Someone somewhere (thoughts on forks thread maybe?) just recently commented that pressfit BBs are, theoretically, the most logical thing to do, but given how hard it seems for the industry to make two concentric holes it was an utter failure. And it's 100 % true.

There needs to be an SBE (Society of Bicycle Engineers, bike equivalent of automotive counterpart SAE) that would define the standards to all things important - interfaces, dimensions, load ratings and tests, etc.

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Zuestman
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10/24/2024 9:00am
Primoz wrote:
Yeah I know... Someone somewhere (thoughts on forks thread maybe?) just recently commented that pressfit BBs are, theoretically, the most logical thing to do, but given...

Yeah I know... Someone somewhere (thoughts on forks thread maybe?) just recently commented that pressfit BBs are, theoretically, the most logical thing to do, but given how hard it seems for the industry to make two concentric holes it was an utter failure. And it's 100 % true.

There needs to be an SBE (Society of Bicycle Engineers, bike equivalent of automotive counterpart SAE) that would define the standards to all things important - interfaces, dimensions, load ratings and tests, etc.

oh the tolerances are there... it's just holding to them.

 

BB30: 40.96-40.985mm

PF30 (and all equivalents) 45.95-46

HT I have as well.  only one that isnt consistently called out is BB86 (I am sure Shimano has the frame tolerance but never seen it posted). Its more as has been discussed ad nauseum.... the cost to hold those tolerances would make frames even more expensive than they already are....

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kperras
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10/24/2024 9:33am Edited Date/Time 10/24/2024 9:34am

Just going to leave this here...Rocky Mountain Bicycles is using the FSA system on the carbon Altitude and Instincts, and our own designed (FSA made) ZS56|66 round headsets for the alloy models. 10mm of reach adjust possible. The headset guts are just standard components: bearings, races, top caps, etc.

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10/24/2024 9:57am
Who makes a tapered steerer compatible reach adjust ZS56/56? Work components only offers a ZS56 top, EC56 bottom for 1.125x1.5 tapered. They have reach adjusts for...

Who makes a tapered steerer compatible reach adjust ZS56/56? Work components only offers a ZS56 top, EC56 bottom for 1.125x1.5 tapered. They have reach adjusts for ZS56/66 and a ZS56/56 for 1.125 steerers. 

kperras wrote:
You cannot adjust the lower bearing position fore-aft in a tapered 1.5, ZS56 cup. There is 0 room for that. You can adjust the reach by a...

You cannot adjust the lower bearing position fore-aft in a tapered 1.5, ZS56 cup. There is 0 room for that. 

You can adjust the reach by a total of 10mm in a ZS66 cup.

Zuestman wrote:
Working for FSA I can 100% confirm that there is NO room in a ZS 56 HT to run a reach adjust for tapered.  some for...

Working for FSA I can 100% confirm that there is NO room in a ZS 56 HT to run a reach adjust for tapered.  some for straight.  The bigger issue for most users is getting the cups in straight (yes this really is an end user/shop issue that has to be heavily considered having dealt with other systems).

The better option is the RAS reach adjust.  Luckily MTB companies I think want to go away from internal routing, so more open to this option.  We are trying....

Maybe focus on making headsets that are not made of Swiss cheese with 30,000 different bearing options 

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16
Jotegr
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10/24/2024 10:09am Edited Date/Time 10/24/2024 1:47pm
kperras wrote:
You cannot adjust the lower bearing position fore-aft in a tapered 1.5, ZS56 cup. There is 0 room for that. You can adjust the reach by a...

You cannot adjust the lower bearing position fore-aft in a tapered 1.5, ZS56 cup. There is 0 room for that. 

You can adjust the reach by a total of 10mm in a ZS66 cup.

Zuestman wrote:
Working for FSA I can 100% confirm that there is NO room in a ZS 56 HT to run a reach adjust for tapered.  some for...

Working for FSA I can 100% confirm that there is NO room in a ZS 56 HT to run a reach adjust for tapered.  some for straight.  The bigger issue for most users is getting the cups in straight (yes this really is an end user/shop issue that has to be heavily considered having dealt with other systems).

The better option is the RAS reach adjust.  Luckily MTB companies I think want to go away from internal routing, so more open to this option.  We are trying....

Maybe focus on making headsets that are not made of Swiss cheese with 30,000 different bearing options 

>Bike manufacturers spec 30,000 different headset combinations on frames over the last four decades

>FSA makes something compatible

How dare they!

21
1
10/24/2024 10:34am
Zuestman wrote:
Working for FSA I can 100% confirm that there is NO room in a ZS 56 HT to run a reach adjust for tapered.  some for...

Working for FSA I can 100% confirm that there is NO room in a ZS 56 HT to run a reach adjust for tapered.  some for straight.  The bigger issue for most users is getting the cups in straight (yes this really is an end user/shop issue that has to be heavily considered having dealt with other systems).

The better option is the RAS reach adjust.  Luckily MTB companies I think want to go away from internal routing, so more open to this option.  We are trying....

Maybe focus on making headsets that are not made of Swiss cheese with 30,000 different bearing options 

Jotegr wrote:

>Bike manufacturers spec 30,000 different headset combinations on frames over the last four decades

>FSA makes something compatible

How dare they!

Havnt owned any mtb that hope doesn’t make a headset for and they make 2 bearings.  Not sure why FSA needs to have so many.  Make finding replacements impossible. 

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Zuestman
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10/24/2024 10:59am

Maybe focus on making headsets that are not made of Swiss cheese with 30,000 different bearing options 

Jotegr wrote:

>Bike manufacturers spec 30,000 different headset combinations on frames over the last four decades

>FSA makes something compatible

How dare they!

Havnt owned any mtb that hope doesn’t make a headset for and they make 2 bearings.  Not sure why FSA needs to have so many.  Make...

Havnt owned any mtb that hope doesn’t make a headset for and they make 2 bearings.  Not sure why FSA needs to have so many.  Make finding replacements impossible. 

We make them because the bike companies request them.  and actually when you start digging into it, we dopnt make a ton of bearings, just combos with bearings for different uses. and we usually have decent stock for our HS.  feel free to reach out to us directly and we can usually sort a bearing that works (many are cross compatible).  If you have more questions directly related to a HS feel free to DM me.

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