yes, although that is new colors, udh and the integrated trunnion spacers in the linkage, so, still same bike.i'd love to see what's next, i feel...
yes, although that is new colors, udh and the integrated trunnion spacers in the linkage, so, still same bike.
i'd love to see what's next, i feel they could tweak the geo a tad to make it more fresh, cause the bikes ride like nothing else already!
I miss my red Imperial. It was a product of it's time.
Evil heavily implied the latest blowout pricing wasn't a going out of business event, it was a clearing inventory for new models event. There was also a rumor of them testing some 'different' looking bikes about a year ago, so seems likely they'll have something more than a refresh to share. The last few generations have been pretty incremental improvements on a theme that is somewhat dated.
A longer rear end, steeper seat tube angle, taller stack Offering would be right up my alley.
I miss my red Imperial. It was a product of it's time. Evil heavily implied the latest blowout pricing wasn't a going out of business event, it...
I miss my red Imperial. It was a product of it's time.
Evil heavily implied the latest blowout pricing wasn't a going out of business event, it was a clearing inventory for new models event. There was also a rumor of them testing some 'different' looking bikes about a year ago, so seems likely they'll have something more than a refresh to share. The last few generations have been pretty incremental improvements on a theme that is somewhat dated.
A longer rear end, steeper seat tube angle, taller stack Offering would be right up my alley.
The future of Superboost comments goes here:
I kick off the superboost comments, it can indeed without a doubt, F off.
I miss my red Imperial. It was a product of it's time. Evil heavily implied the latest blowout pricing wasn't a going out of business event, it...
I miss my red Imperial. It was a product of it's time.
Evil heavily implied the latest blowout pricing wasn't a going out of business event, it was a clearing inventory for new models event. There was also a rumor of them testing some 'different' looking bikes about a year ago, so seems likely they'll have something more than a refresh to share. The last few generations have been pretty incremental improvements on a theme that is somewhat dated.
A longer rear end, steeper seat tube angle, taller stack Offering would be right up my alley.
The future of Superboost comments goes here:
I have a nice wheelset so I don’t care if the superboost stays honestly, although I hope they stick with the short chainstay at least on small and medium sizes, perhaps with a chip to make it longer if people want to
And stick with delta. As that’s what makes Evil bikes awesome to ride
TBF and only slightly derail the thread, I did the same to my Kona Chute while the Z1 was waiting on parts. It was stupid, it was fun, it was stupid fun.
I miss my red Imperial. It was a product of it's time. Evil heavily implied the latest blowout pricing wasn't a going out of business event, it...
I miss my red Imperial. It was a product of it's time.
Evil heavily implied the latest blowout pricing wasn't a going out of business event, it was a clearing inventory for new models event. There was also a rumor of them testing some 'different' looking bikes about a year ago, so seems likely they'll have something more than a refresh to share. The last few generations have been pretty incremental improvements on a theme that is somewhat dated.
A longer rear end, steeper seat tube angle, taller stack Offering would be right up my alley.
I have a nice wheelset so I don’t care if the superboost stays honestly, although I hope they stick with the short chainstay at least on...
I have a nice wheelset so I don’t care if the superboost stays honestly, although I hope they stick with the short chainstay at least on small and medium sizes, perhaps with a chip to make it longer if people want to
And stick with delta. As that’s what makes Evil bikes awesome to ride
Let see hopefully sooner than later
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most when it came out. Lots of bikes have identical or similar to LR curves now a days. Otherwise it was a single pivot, with inherent design compromises that came from the pivot location. There is a reason his newer systems use dual links, being able to tailor the AS and AR separate from the wheel path, at least IMO as an mech engineer…
FWIW: I’ve never spoken to him, it’s just my opinion based on the design progression over the years.
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most...
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most when it came out. Lots of bikes have identical or similar to LR curves now a days. Otherwise it was a single pivot, with inherent design compromises that came from the pivot location. There is a reason his newer systems use dual links, being able to tailor the AS and AR separate from the wheel path, at least IMO as an mech engineer…
FWIW: I’ve never spoken to him, it’s just my opinion based on the design progression over the years.
meh, is what i feel when riding plenty of other bikes vs Evil, which, is not the best, and not the one everyone will like, of course, but nothing rides the same, for good or bad it does not matter, i'm aware it's just a linkage driven single pivot, but they've done a hell of a job with it, and to this day i still think it's great despite all the good stuff that came out in the recent years.
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most...
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most when it came out. Lots of bikes have identical or similar to LR curves now a days. Otherwise it was a single pivot, with inherent design compromises that came from the pivot location. There is a reason his newer systems use dual links, being able to tailor the AS and AR separate from the wheel path, at least IMO as an mech engineer…
FWIW: I’ve never spoken to him, it’s just my opinion based on the design progression over the years.
DW link came out way before the Delta Link which I’m pretty sure is exclusive to Evil.
Again referencing Page’s podcast Weagle says he can get the same kinematic and ride characteristics that he can with DW.
FYI he offered his latest design to the Atherton’s before Pivot took it up.
Sounds like he has some cool things in the works too
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most...
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most when it came out. Lots of bikes have identical or similar to LR curves now a days. Otherwise it was a single pivot, with inherent design compromises that came from the pivot location. There is a reason his newer systems use dual links, being able to tailor the AS and AR separate from the wheel path, at least IMO as an mech engineer…
FWIW: I’ve never spoken to him, it’s just my opinion based on the design progression over the years.
I miss my red Imperial. It was a product of it's time. Evil heavily implied the latest blowout pricing wasn't a going out of business event, it...
I miss my red Imperial. It was a product of it's time.
Evil heavily implied the latest blowout pricing wasn't a going out of business event, it was a clearing inventory for new models event. There was also a rumor of them testing some 'different' looking bikes about a year ago, so seems likely they'll have something more than a refresh to share. The last few generations have been pretty incremental improvements on a theme that is somewhat dated.
A longer rear end, steeper seat tube angle, taller stack Offering would be right up my alley.
I have a nice wheelset so I don’t care if the superboost stays honestly, although I hope they stick with the short chainstay at least on...
I have a nice wheelset so I don’t care if the superboost stays honestly, although I hope they stick with the short chainstay at least on small and medium sizes, perhaps with a chip to make it longer if people want to
And stick with delta. As that’s what makes Evil bikes awesome to ride
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most...
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most when it came out. Lots of bikes have identical or similar to LR curves now a days. Otherwise it was a single pivot, with inherent design compromises that came from the pivot location. There is a reason his newer systems use dual links, being able to tailor the AS and AR separate from the wheel path, at least IMO as an mech engineer…
FWIW: I’ve never spoken to him, it’s just my opinion based on the design progression over the years.
AS and AR can be tuned with a single pivot, either use a split pivot like Trek, or use an idler pulley and a floating brake mount. Using those you can achieve pretty much any AR and AS levels and curves. Now this is a hot take but I feel like we are nearing the end of the low AR BS trend as people will realise that it actually doesn't do anything positive for 98% of the riders out there, while high AR make a bike calmer in sketchy situations. If/When this happen, single pivot will definitely get a second look as they allow good AR levels without resorting to crazy high AS levels (Gambler, Summum for example).
I have a nice wheelset so I don’t care if the superboost stays honestly, although I hope they stick with the short chainstay at least on...
I have a nice wheelset so I don’t care if the superboost stays honestly, although I hope they stick with the short chainstay at least on small and medium sizes, perhaps with a chip to make it longer if people want to
And stick with delta. As that’s what makes Evil bikes awesome to ride
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most...
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most when it came out. Lots of bikes have identical or similar to LR curves now a days. Otherwise it was a single pivot, with inherent design compromises that came from the pivot location. There is a reason his newer systems use dual links, being able to tailor the AS and AR separate from the wheel path, at least IMO as an mech engineer…
FWIW: I’ve never spoken to him, it’s just my opinion based on the design progression over the years.
AS and AR can be tuned with a single pivot, either use a split pivot like Trek, or use an idler pulley and a floating brake...
AS and AR can be tuned with a single pivot, either use a split pivot like Trek, or use an idler pulley and a floating brake mount. Using those you can achieve pretty much any AR and AS levels and curves. Now this is a hot take but I feel like we are nearing the end of the low AR BS trend as people will realise that it actually doesn't do anything positive for 98% of the riders out there, while high AR make a bike calmer in sketchy situations. If/When this happen, single pivot will definitely get a second look as they allow good AR levels without resorting to crazy high AS levels (Gambler, Summum for example).
I prefer the Crab Link. It’s the future obviously.
DW spins up designs all the time, and to me they all come across as a good marketing campaign to sell more design. Everything DW is always “better”, and DW is dogmatic that every new product is better than the Crab Link (Horst). Yawn.
I like to believe that we’ve finally hit an era in biking where a good design isn’t limited to the patent you hold or the design you licensed. Lots of smart people out there.
Supposedly when it comes to designing bikes with Dave and one of his linkages it's the complete package and how the rider experiences the bike that is the main benefit, not just the marketing related to the link. Supposedly Dave has characteristics figured out to give a complete package to the brand, not just the suspension pivot points.
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most...
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most when it came out. Lots of bikes have identical or similar to LR curves now a days. Otherwise it was a single pivot, with inherent design compromises that came from the pivot location. There is a reason his newer systems use dual links, being able to tailor the AS and AR separate from the wheel path, at least IMO as an mech engineer…
FWIW: I’ve never spoken to him, it’s just my opinion based on the design progression over the years.
AS and AR can be tuned with a single pivot, either use a split pivot like Trek, or use an idler pulley and a floating brake...
AS and AR can be tuned with a single pivot, either use a split pivot like Trek, or use an idler pulley and a floating brake mount. Using those you can achieve pretty much any AR and AS levels and curves. Now this is a hot take but I feel like we are nearing the end of the low AR BS trend as people will realise that it actually doesn't do anything positive for 98% of the riders out there, while high AR make a bike calmer in sketchy situations. If/When this happen, single pivot will definitely get a second look as they allow good AR levels without resorting to crazy high AS levels (Gambler, Summum for example).
I prefer the Crab Link. It’s the future obviously.DW spins up designs all the time, and to me they all come across as a good marketing...
I prefer the Crab Link. It’s the future obviously.
DW spins up designs all the time, and to me they all come across as a good marketing campaign to sell more design. Everything DW is always “better”, and DW is dogmatic that every new product is better than the Crab Link (Horst). Yawn.
I like to believe that we’ve finally hit an era in biking where a good design isn’t limited to the patent you hold or the design you licensed. Lots of smart people out there.
'Lots of smart people out there' is a great point. Bikes are generally great these days but excel in slightly different use cases, or feel slightly different but the knowledge base seems to have exploded over the past few years and engineers are making the most out of the available platforms.
Since bikes are getting so good at what they're designed for, I think demos/testing to develop and understand your subjective preference is becoming more relevant. I've recently rented/demoed a good chunk of modern trail and enduro bikes and it was sick to see what I got along with or didn't in terms of ride feel; sizing, short/long chainstays, high/low/mid pivot, platform (Crab, VPP, DW, single, maestro, etc.)... For example I like the ride feel of Pivot's short chainstay + DW combo and my brother absolutely doesn't, but we both get along with FSR.
Supposedly when it comes to designing bikes with Dave and one of his linkages it's the complete package and how the rider experiences the bike that...
Supposedly when it comes to designing bikes with Dave and one of his linkages it's the complete package and how the rider experiences the bike that is the main benefit, not just the marketing related to the link. Supposedly Dave has characteristics figured out to give a complete package to the brand, not just the suspension pivot points.
But how do I know if the complete package from DW Link is better than the complete package from Delta Link? Or perhaps the Orion complete package? Maybe even Devinci's complete package, the split pivot? Or whatever the complete package Pivot's downhill bike is called?
They obviously all work but I'm left somewhat skeptical of claims made about various suspension designs (all made by DW) when the entirety of DW's business model appears to be create a suspension design, find a buyer, and move on to the next suspension design and buyer. Is one of the above systems superior to the others in some applications? most applications? Are we sure none of them are contrived solely because the previous, superior design was licensed enough already and a new one needed to be made for sales purposes?
Edit: Coming back to this, I believe I can articulate my skepticism a bit better. I'm skeptical that if Dave can get everything he wants (i.e. a complete package) out of any of the above DW-designed (not to mention DW-inspired) platforms, I'm skeptical DW can't get the complete package out of something conventional, say crab or crab adjacent, albeit with less patents and in turn, less ability to make money and less to hand over to the marketing guys.
You can get really really damn close to any AS, AR*, and LR from any other platform with a linkage driven single pivot. Packaging and aesthetic would have to take a back seat but you would be surprised that all mini link/ dual link bikes can be duplicated in a linkage driven single pivot.
* low AR is the one that can't get without a floating brake.
Supposedly when it comes to designing bikes with Dave and one of his linkages it's the complete package and how the rider experiences the bike that...
Supposedly when it comes to designing bikes with Dave and one of his linkages it's the complete package and how the rider experiences the bike that is the main benefit, not just the marketing related to the link. Supposedly Dave has characteristics figured out to give a complete package to the brand, not just the suspension pivot points.
Does the complete package include shock clevis? Asking for a friend.
With suspension kinematics converging in the Crab Quadrant, I'm surprised that companies aren't touting minimum brakeaway force figures. Force to get everything moving, lateral rigidity, and overall progression would give me a better idea of how a bike really feels vs a bunch of graphs-IMO. Of course you can get more info from all those graphs, but they don't seem super useful at a glance to most people IMO.
Supposedly when it comes to designing bikes with Dave and one of his linkages it's the complete package and how the rider experiences the bike that...
Supposedly when it comes to designing bikes with Dave and one of his linkages it's the complete package and how the rider experiences the bike that is the main benefit, not just the marketing related to the link. Supposedly Dave has characteristics figured out to give a complete package to the brand, not just the suspension pivot points.
That has come up before, I think in an interview with Atherton? He looks at additional proprietary measure(s) that he developed and not just AS/AR/LR when he designs the system. But the brands won't say what they are.
My immediate thought was that if there's this extra property that you think is beneficial to the owner, but you're not allowed to tell the owner what it is beyond some extremely vague implications about its existence, why should the prospective owner be remotely interested?
With suspension kinematics converging in the Crab Quadrant, I'm surprised that companies aren't touting minimum brakeaway force figures. Force to get everything moving, lateral rigidity, and...
With suspension kinematics converging in the Crab Quadrant, I'm surprised that companies aren't touting minimum brakeaway force figures. Force to get everything moving, lateral rigidity, and overall progression would give me a better idea of how a bike really feels vs a bunch of graphs-IMO. Of course you can get more info from all those graphs, but they don't seem super useful at a glance to most people IMO.
You mean you can't just have your marketing dept say it's "plush when you need it to" but "stiff for the roughest lines" ?
I bought a Sovereign (it was terrible).
I miss my red Imperial. It was a product of it's time.
Evil heavily implied the latest blowout pricing wasn't a going out of business event, it was a clearing inventory for new models event. There was also a rumor of them testing some 'different' looking bikes about a year ago, so seems likely they'll have something more than a refresh to share. The last few generations have been pretty incremental improvements on a theme that is somewhat dated.
A longer rear end, steeper seat tube angle, taller stack Offering would be right up my alley.
The future of Superboost comments goes here:
I kick off the superboost comments, it can indeed without a doubt, F off.
26/24 micro mullet was the shit, that was the only bike I could ever really manual...
If you don’t think of Evil and E.13 (named after a police precinct in Boston) as Maine-based companies, you probably aren’t in your mid 40’s, ahaha.
BOS is apparently poised to make a major push back into the MTB market, they have refreshed their entire range of products - it all drops on November 11 but here's the info already: https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/bos-suspension-launches-bos….
Anyone else notice the bike Semenuk rode in rampage wasn’t just a gen 5 slash? Looks nice IMO
I think its custom made just for him. They call it the Trek Sesh. I think i remember seeing a bit of a bike check on it.
He had that mule last year, too, didn’t he?
(judged events don’t belong in mountain biking)
I have a nice wheelset so I don’t care if the superboost stays honestly, although I hope they stick with the short chainstay at least on small and medium sizes, perhaps with a chip to make it longer if people want to
And stick with delta. As that’s what makes Evil bikes awesome to ride
Let see hopefully sooner than later
TBF and only slightly derail the thread, I did the same to my Kona Chute while the Z1 was waiting on parts. It was stupid, it was fun, it was stupid fun.
Will they still have the terrible customer service and poor parts availability that we grew to love back in their first foray? Time will tell!
and their second foray
Meh, delta link is just linkage ratio manipulation through the dual link system. It created a well crafted LR and progression that was better than most when it came out. Lots of bikes have identical or similar to LR curves now a days. Otherwise it was a single pivot, with inherent design compromises that came from the pivot location. There is a reason his newer systems use dual links, being able to tailor the AS and AR separate from the wheel path, at least IMO as an mech engineer…
FWIW: I’ve never spoken to him, it’s just my opinion based on the design progression over the years.
meh, is what i feel when riding plenty of other bikes vs Evil, which, is not the best, and not the one everyone will like, of course, but nothing rides the same, for good or bad it does not matter, i'm aware it's just a linkage driven single pivot, but they've done a hell of a job with it, and to this day i still think it's great despite all the good stuff that came out in the recent years.
DW link came out way before the Delta Link which I’m pretty sure is exclusive to Evil.
Again referencing Page’s podcast Weagle says he can get the same kinematic and ride characteristics that he can with DW.
FYI he offered his latest design to the Atherton’s before Pivot took it up.
Sounds like he has some cool things in the works too
The same kinematic, as in the same AS and AR? Is that actually what he said?
AS and AR can be tuned with a single pivot, either use a split pivot like Trek, or use an idler pulley and a floating brake mount. Using those you can achieve pretty much any AR and AS levels and curves. Now this is a hot take but I feel like we are nearing the end of the low AR BS trend as people will realise that it actually doesn't do anything positive for 98% of the riders out there, while high AR make a bike calmer in sketchy situations. If/When this happen, single pivot will definitely get a second look as they allow good AR levels without resorting to crazy high AS levels (Gambler, Summum for example).
I prefer the Crab Link. It’s the future obviously.
DW spins up designs all the time, and to me they all come across as a good marketing campaign to sell more design. Everything DW is always “better”, and DW is dogmatic that every new product is better than the Crab Link (Horst). Yawn.
I like to believe that we’ve finally hit an era in biking where a good design isn’t limited to the patent you hold or the design you licensed. Lots of smart people out there.
Supposedly when it comes to designing bikes with Dave and one of his linkages it's the complete package and how the rider experiences the bike that is the main benefit, not just the marketing related to the link. Supposedly Dave has characteristics figured out to give a complete package to the brand, not just the suspension pivot points.
'Lots of smart people out there' is a great point. Bikes are generally great these days but excel in slightly different use cases, or feel slightly different but the knowledge base seems to have exploded over the past few years and engineers are making the most out of the available platforms.
Since bikes are getting so good at what they're designed for, I think demos/testing to develop and understand your subjective preference is becoming more relevant. I've recently rented/demoed a good chunk of modern trail and enduro bikes and it was sick to see what I got along with or didn't in terms of ride feel; sizing, short/long chainstays, high/low/mid pivot, platform (Crab, VPP, DW, single, maestro, etc.)... For example I like the ride feel of Pivot's short chainstay + DW combo and my brother absolutely doesn't, but we both get along with FSR.
But how do I know if the complete package from DW Link is better than the complete package from Delta Link? Or perhaps the Orion complete package? Maybe even Devinci's complete package, the split pivot? Or whatever the complete package Pivot's downhill bike is called?
They obviously all work but I'm left somewhat skeptical of claims made about various suspension designs (all made by DW) when the entirety of DW's business model appears to be create a suspension design, find a buyer, and move on to the next suspension design and buyer. Is one of the above systems superior to the others in some applications? most applications? Are we sure none of them are contrived solely because the previous, superior design was licensed enough already and a new one needed to be made for sales purposes?
Edit: Coming back to this, I believe I can articulate my skepticism a bit better. I'm skeptical that if Dave can get everything he wants (i.e. a complete package) out of any of the above DW-designed (not to mention DW-inspired) platforms, I'm skeptical DW can't get the complete package out of something conventional, say crab or crab adjacent, albeit with less patents and in turn, less ability to make money and less to hand over to the marketing guys.
You can get really really damn close to any AS, AR*, and LR from any other platform with a linkage driven single pivot. Packaging and aesthetic would have to take a back seat but you would be surprised that all mini link/ dual link bikes can be duplicated in a linkage driven single pivot.
* low AR is the one that can't get without a floating brake.
Does the complete package include shock clevis? Asking for a friend.
So Evil bikes and e13 were the same company around 2000-2003 years? just diferent name brand? I didn't know that 😀
With suspension kinematics converging in the Crab Quadrant, I'm surprised that companies aren't touting minimum brakeaway force figures. Force to get everything moving, lateral rigidity, and overall progression would give me a better idea of how a bike really feels vs a bunch of graphs-IMO. Of course you can get more info from all those graphs, but they don't seem super useful at a glance to most people IMO.
That has come up before, I think in an interview with Atherton? He looks at additional proprietary measure(s) that he developed and not just AS/AR/LR when he designs the system. But the brands won't say what they are.
My immediate thought was that if there's this extra property that you think is beneficial to the owner, but you're not allowed to tell the owner what it is beyond some extremely vague implications about its existence, why should the prospective owner be remotely interested?
You mean you can't just have your marketing dept say it's "plush when you need it to" but "stiff for the roughest lines" ?