I'm not an engineer, but the Bilstein IFP damper design doesn't look position sensitive like Rockshox's Touchdown, which only acts in the first 10-20% of travel (IIRC). It looks like it's a speed sensitive thing for small displacement forces, although I don't know how the damper is smart enough to know when to run a large high speed displacement through the base valve vs. running only small high speed displacements through the IFP. If it works the way I think it works, it's supple for small impacts at every stage of the travel, even when you're already packed down (which means you're still fighting the spring force, but not fighting the spring force and the compression damping). So it would be like Touchdown, but at every point in the travel, which would be amazing if it works as intended.
I'm not an engineer, but the Bilstein IFP damper design doesn't look position sensitive like Rockshox's Touchdown, which only acts in the first 10-20% of travel...
I'm not an engineer, but the Bilstein IFP damper design doesn't look position sensitive like Rockshox's Touchdown, which only acts in the first 10-20% of travel (IIRC). It looks like it's a speed sensitive thing for small displacement forces, although I don't know how the damper is smart enough to know when to run a large high speed displacement through the base valve vs. running only small high speed displacements through the IFP. If it works the way I think it works, it's supple for small impacts at every stage of the travel, even when you're already packed down (which means you're still fighting the spring force, but not fighting the spring force and the compression damping). So it would be like Touchdown, but at every point in the travel, which would be amazing if it works as intended.
At first glance it looks like pretty much all impacts would go through the IFP system until the IFP has bottomed out inside it's bore and then things would flow 100% through the shim stack. As long as the IFP can reset from its bottomed out position you'd be able to have access to that super light damping at any point unlike with a bypass. Whether that's for better or worse deep in travel, I'm not sure.
In the automotive world Bilsteins are usually fantastic bang for your buck. I'd hope that would transfer over as well.
The "[...] overarching idea behind the LoopsDrive uni-directional clutch mechanism is separating the freewheel function from the bearing and sealing precision needed to make a bicycle wheel spin smoothly in all conditions."
I'm not an engineer, but the Bilstein IFP damper design doesn't look position sensitive like Rockshox's Touchdown, which only acts in the first 10-20% of travel...
I'm not an engineer, but the Bilstein IFP damper design doesn't look position sensitive like Rockshox's Touchdown, which only acts in the first 10-20% of travel (IIRC). It looks like it's a speed sensitive thing for small displacement forces, although I don't know how the damper is smart enough to know when to run a large high speed displacement through the base valve vs. running only small high speed displacements through the IFP. If it works the way I think it works, it's supple for small impacts at every stage of the travel, even when you're already packed down (which means you're still fighting the spring force, but not fighting the spring force and the compression damping). So it would be like Touchdown, but at every point in the travel, which would be amazing if it works as intended.
Yep there is nothing suggesting position sensitivity as there would have to be something engaging/disengaging at certain part of the travel. I could see one potential issue with this concept that mtbers care so much about and that is noise, IFP opening ad closing on repeated hits could create some knocking sound 🤔 anyways, very interesting news, would be also interesting of they were offering damper cartridges like ohlins used to before they went all out and started making forks.
Dak tried to cut the one corner on an otherwise dry track that had a puddle of greasy mud on the inside...
I wonder if this...
Dak tried to cut the one corner on an otherwise dry track that had a puddle of greasy mud on the inside...
I wonder if this was a sneaky line he wasn't showing in practice and only attempted in finals? There didn't seem to be any tyre marks through the inside.
He was on this line all weekend, qualies and semis
Didn’t Fox or RS offer tapered steerers for a minute? I think Formula has them on their enduro dual crown…
i don't think fox ever did. RS..... maybe? i can't think of anything off the top of my head. the formula belva yes. good call. but as you mentioned, that's marketed as an enduro fork not a DH fork.
i don't think fox ever did. RS..... maybe? i can't think of anything off the top of my head. the formula belva yes. good call. but...
i don't think fox ever did. RS..... maybe? i can't think of anything off the top of my head. the formula belva yes. good call. but as you mentioned, that's marketed as an enduro fork not a DH fork.
DVO did with the Emerald and you can also get the SR Suntour Rux with a tapered steerer.
Don't think RS or Fox ever offered tapered on dual crown forks.
That Bilstein patent looks super interesting... I played with a few frequency sensitive valves at RS but could never get them to work smoothly and/or be durable. They would ride great on small bump but then you'd hit something that 'bottomed' the frequency sensitive part and it would bang or spike the damping.
Would be cool to see Bilstein enter the MTB market.
That Bilstein patent looks super interesting... I played with a few frequency sensitive valves at RS but could never get them to work smoothly and/or be...
That Bilstein patent looks super interesting... I played with a few frequency sensitive valves at RS but could never get them to work smoothly and/or be durable. They would ride great on small bump but then you'd hit something that 'bottomed' the frequency sensitive part and it would bang or spike the damping.
Would be cool to see Bilstein enter the MTB market.
Chasing that "Into jeeping now into mountain bikes" segment of the market that popped up from 2020.
I think it looks really promising, especially if Bilstein can solve a problem with their inaugural product launch that nobody else has successfully figured out I imagine that, along with the available funds, would certainly get the attention of a few race teams.
...I'm just holding out for the King MTB suspension to drop lol
I've had this same idea floating around my head for a while. Oil can flow X volume before closing a port and redirecting oil flow to the traditional compression shim stack.
I've had this same idea floating around my head for a while. Oil can flow X volume before closing a port and redirecting oil flow to...
I've had this same idea floating around my head for a while. Oil can flow X volume before closing a port and redirecting oil flow to the traditional compression shim stack.
Does this exist in motor sports already?
yes- that is what the intention is.
getting it to work smoothly and package in a MTB damper is another story. I think some of the issue is MTB suspension has an extremely wide range of shaft speeds to deal with. Something like 5-10x the range of a normal car, so what works on cars doesn't always translate.
search Koni FSD- they make it for cars- not sure if there is a racing application or if it's for Toyota Avalons...
Ohlins calls theirs DFV, dual flow valve, and use it in their automotive shocks.
It's a second set of lightly damped shims that are enabled once the free bleed on the LSC needle start to choke up and before the main HSC compression stack is active. I would think this method allows them to run a needle in the LSC that flows more at the lower rates knowing that the second shims will come into play before the main stack.
So the other site has some drawings from E*13's "floating" hub.
I've felt pedal kickback before, on a DH bike with a really high main pivot (previous gen Scott Gambler), but it was at very low speeds, going down multiple foot-high stair-step like rocks on a very steep trail where you're trying to go as slow as possible but losing the battle against gravity. As the speed would pick up past 5 mph it would go away. Its really noticeable if your rear is locked up.
For "normal" riding, I'm super skeptical OChain and other solutions do anything at all. If OChain really does work, doesn't the free motion have to be on the crankset? If the chain is pulling on the front chainring, but the ring is fixed, all this hub would do is prevent the chain growth from attempting to turn the cassette. If you're rolling forward at any decent speed the cassette moving will not catch up with the speed of wheel rotation.
Vorsprung has a pretty good video on the pedal kickback in general.
Essentially, it isn‘t only the chain „growth“ which is only relevant when the freehub is engaged. But actually the chain flapping around (quite a lot of mass) creates some „pulling“ on the chainring as well, in both directiony.
I have just done some experimenting on my Mondraker Summum (which has like 200% Anti-Squat) with a „freecoaster gear“. Replaced two cogs with some spacers on the cassette so you have a gear where the chain moving around has zero effect on the chainring.
I actually noticed a massive difference in my feet and legs, you could really feel how much calmer you can stand and the rear end working much more freely/a lot less fatiguing.
So the other site has some drawings from E*13's "floating" hub.
I've felt pedal kickback before, on a DH bike with a really high main pivot...
So the other site has some drawings from E*13's "floating" hub.
I've felt pedal kickback before, on a DH bike with a really high main pivot (previous gen Scott Gambler), but it was at very low speeds, going down multiple foot-high stair-step like rocks on a very steep trail where you're trying to go as slow as possible but losing the battle against gravity. As the speed would pick up past 5 mph it would go away. Its really noticeable if your rear is locked up.
For "normal" riding, I'm super skeptical OChain and other solutions do anything at all. If OChain really does work, doesn't the free motion have to be on the crankset? If the chain is pulling on the front chainring, but the ring is fixed, all this hub would do is prevent the chain growth from attempting to turn the cassette. If you're rolling forward at any decent speed the cassette moving will not catch up with the speed of wheel rotation.
The Ochain doesn’t work when it comes to making your suspension feel Better. However it does mute chainforces on the pedals which increases feeling the bike thru your feet. Especially for flat pedal riders. It’s a little expensive so I only have it on my main bike. But I really like it.
I have just done some experimenting on my Mondraker Summum (which has like 200% Anti-Squat) with a „freecoaster gear“. Replaced two cogs with some spacers on...
I have just done some experimenting on my Mondraker Summum (which has like 200% Anti-Squat) with a „freecoaster gear“. Replaced two cogs with some spacers on the cassette so you have a gear where the chain moving around has zero effect on the chainring.
I actually noticed a massive difference in my feet and legs, you could really feel how much calmer you can stand and the rear end working much more freely/a lot less fatiguing.
Vorsprung has a pretty good video on the pedal kickback in general.
Essentially, it isn‘t only the chain „growth“ which is only relevant when the...
Vorsprung has a pretty good video on the pedal kickback in general.
Essentially, it isn‘t only the chain „growth“ which is only relevant when the freehub is engaged. But actually the chain flapping around (quite a lot of mass) creates some „pulling“ on the chainring as well, in both directiony.
that makes sense, but again this would mean that the free motion has to be at the cranks. If you disable your derailleur clutch, take out your pawls, the chain flopping around will still tug on your cranks. With this hub "solution", the cassette still moves from chain tension (which, again, once you're going faster than 5 mph, its 100% the same effect as having a completely disabled freehub)
So the other site has some drawings from E*13's "floating" hub.
I've felt pedal kickback before, on a DH bike with a really high main pivot...
So the other site has some drawings from E*13's "floating" hub.
I've felt pedal kickback before, on a DH bike with a really high main pivot (previous gen Scott Gambler), but it was at very low speeds, going down multiple foot-high stair-step like rocks on a very steep trail where you're trying to go as slow as possible but losing the battle against gravity. As the speed would pick up past 5 mph it would go away. Its really noticeable if your rear is locked up.
For "normal" riding, I'm super skeptical OChain and other solutions do anything at all. If OChain really does work, doesn't the free motion have to be on the crankset? If the chain is pulling on the front chainring, but the ring is fixed, all this hub would do is prevent the chain growth from attempting to turn the cassette. If you're rolling forward at any decent speed the cassette moving will not catch up with the speed of wheel rotation.
The Ochain doesn’t work when it comes to making your suspension feel Better. However it does mute chainforces on the pedals which increases feeling the bike...
The Ochain doesn’t work when it comes to making your suspension feel Better. However it does mute chainforces on the pedals which increases feeling the bike thru your feet. Especially for flat pedal riders. It’s a little expensive so I only have it on my main bike. But I really like it.
In my opinion the oChain does make the rear shock feel better because it free's up it's movement. Like you stated it mutes the chainforces and the chainforces are what can add tension to your shock on a bike with high Anti-rise or chaingrowth.
Would y'all want to see a 15-minute VitalMTB video with back-to-back testing on a section of brutal rocky chunder with different pedal kickback theories to see if the Ochain really works as advertised?
Could be an interesting one!
So like rockshox touchdown but in a fork? It bypasses the damping in the first portion of travel?
Sounds similar
I'm not an engineer, but the Bilstein IFP damper design doesn't look position sensitive like Rockshox's Touchdown, which only acts in the first 10-20% of travel (IIRC). It looks like it's a speed sensitive thing for small displacement forces, although I don't know how the damper is smart enough to know when to run a large high speed displacement through the base valve vs. running only small high speed displacements through the IFP. If it works the way I think it works, it's supple for small impacts at every stage of the travel, even when you're already packed down (which means you're still fighting the spring force, but not fighting the spring force and the compression damping). So it would be like Touchdown, but at every point in the travel, which would be amazing if it works as intended.
At first glance it looks like pretty much all impacts would go through the IFP system until the IFP has bottomed out inside it's bore and then things would flow 100% through the shim stack. As long as the IFP can reset from its bottomed out position you'd be able to have access to that super light damping at any point unlike with a bypass. Whether that's for better or worse deep in travel, I'm not sure.
In the automotive world Bilsteins are usually fantastic bang for your buck. I'd hope that would transfer over as well.
Interesting design for a "freehub".
The "[...] overarching idea behind the LoopsDrive uni-directional clutch mechanism is separating the freewheel function from the bearing and sealing precision needed to make a bicycle wheel spin smoothly in all conditions."
https://bikerumor.com/soul-kozak-loopsdrive-crafts-ultra-high-poe-tensi…
Yep there is nothing suggesting position sensitivity as there would have to be something engaging/disengaging at certain part of the travel. I could see one potential issue with this concept that mtbers care so much about and that is noise, IFP opening ad closing on repeated hits could create some knocking sound 🤔 anyways, very interesting news, would be also interesting of they were offering damper cartridges like ohlins used to before they went all out and started making forks.
He was on this line all weekend, qualies and semis
i get that it's a rudimentary diagram but that sure looks like a tapered steerer. if true, interesting choice for a dual crown fork.
Didn’t Fox or RS offer tapered steerers for a minute? I think Formula has them on their enduro dual crown…
i don't think fox ever did. RS..... maybe? i can't think of anything off the top of my head. the formula belva yes. good call. but as you mentioned, that's marketed as an enduro fork not a DH fork.
DVO did with the Emerald and you can also get the SR Suntour Rux with a tapered steerer.
Don't think RS or Fox ever offered tapered on dual crown forks.
That Bilstein patent looks super interesting... I played with a few frequency sensitive valves at RS but could never get them to work smoothly and/or be durable. They would ride great on small bump but then you'd hit something that 'bottomed' the frequency sensitive part and it would bang or spike the damping.
Would be cool to see Bilstein enter the MTB market.
Chasing that "Into jeeping now into mountain bikes" segment of the market that popped up from 2020.
It makes sense... Fox is all over that market too (Off road trucks/MTBers)
I think it looks really promising, especially if Bilstein can solve a problem with their inaugural product launch that nobody else has successfully figured out I imagine that, along with the available funds, would certainly get the attention of a few race teams.
...I'm just holding out for the King MTB suspension to drop lol
I've had this same idea floating around my head for a while. Oil can flow X volume before closing a port and redirecting oil flow to the traditional compression shim stack.
Does this exist in motor sports already?
yes- that is what the intention is.
getting it to work smoothly and package in a MTB damper is another story. I think some of the issue is MTB suspension has an extremely wide range of shaft speeds to deal with. Something like 5-10x the range of a normal car, so what works on cars doesn't always translate.
search Koni FSD- they make it for cars- not sure if there is a racing application or if it's for Toyota Avalons...
Ohlins calls theirs DFV, dual flow valve, and use it in their automotive shocks.
It's a second set of lightly damped shims that are enabled once the free bleed on the LSC needle start to choke up and before the main HSC compression stack is active. I would think this method allows them to run a needle in the LSC that flows more at the lower rates knowing that the second shims will come into play before the main stack.
Sounds functionally similar to what manitou is doing with TPC plus in the dorado. A second piston that adds dampening once it "bottoms out".
What advantage is there to wetting the fork in a certain travel range?
So the other site has some drawings from E*13's "floating" hub.
I've felt pedal kickback before, on a DH bike with a really high main pivot (previous gen Scott Gambler), but it was at very low speeds, going down multiple foot-high stair-step like rocks on a very steep trail where you're trying to go as slow as possible but losing the battle against gravity. As the speed would pick up past 5 mph it would go away. Its really noticeable if your rear is locked up.
For "normal" riding, I'm super skeptical OChain and other solutions do anything at all. If OChain really does work, doesn't the free motion have to be on the crankset? If the chain is pulling on the front chainring, but the ring is fixed, all this hub would do is prevent the chain growth from attempting to turn the cassette. If you're rolling forward at any decent speed the cassette moving will not catch up with the speed of wheel rotation.
Vorsprung has a pretty good video on the pedal kickback in general.
Essentially, it isn‘t only the chain „growth“ which is only relevant when the freehub is engaged. But actually the chain flapping around (quite a lot of mass) creates some „pulling“ on the chainring as well, in both directiony.
https://youtu.be/grNUgu0H9YA?si=O1BThIcf7w61bBdR
I have just done some experimenting on my Mondraker Summum (which has like 200% Anti-Squat) with a „freecoaster gear“. Replaced two cogs with some spacers on the cassette so you have a gear where the chain moving around has zero effect on the chainring.
I actually noticed a massive difference in my feet and legs, you could really feel how much calmer you can stand and the rear end working much more freely/a lot less fatiguing.
The Ochain doesn’t work when it comes to making your suspension feel Better. However it does mute chainforces on the pedals which increases feeling the bike thru your feet. Especially for flat pedal riders. It’s a little expensive so I only have it on my main bike. But I really like it.
Which hub are you on?
that makes sense, but again this would mean that the free motion has to be at the cranks. If you disable your derailleur clutch, take out your pawls, the chain flopping around will still tug on your cranks. With this hub "solution", the cassette still moves from chain tension (which, again, once you're going faster than 5 mph, its 100% the same effect as having a completely disabled freehub)
In my opinion the oChain does make the rear shock feel better because it free's up it's movement. Like you stated it mutes the chainforces and the chainforces are what can add tension to your shock on a bike with high Anti-rise or chaingrowth.
DAMPING
Would y'all want to see a 15-minute VitalMTB video with back-to-back testing on a section of brutal rocky chunder with different pedal kickback theories to see if the Ochain really works as advertised?