MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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brash
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AU
10/21/2023 7:51pm

that gravel thing is so wrong it looks right for some reason.

Thanks Marketing guy.

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1
Primoz
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Location
SI
10/21/2023 10:29pm

Holy Batman that drive sprocket size... Also, bolt clamp crowns, should do wonders for stiffness... 

3
10/21/2023 10:38pm

Last Yamaha I owned is the one in my garage. Tongue

But it runs on race gas and Golden Spectro, not electricity.

3
veefour
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7/31/2016
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Cinderford GB
10/22/2023 3:22am Edited Date/Time 10/22/2023 3:39am
Primoz wrote:

Holy Batman that drive sprocket size... Also, bolt clamp crowns, should do wonders for stiffness... 

There are some better pictures here;

https://global.yamaha-motor.com/showroom/event/japan-mobilityshow-2023/…

Looks to me like the front triangle is fabricated in 2 halves, then bolted together too.

Their AWD adventure bike is seriously nuts.

4
Dave_Camp
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CO US
10/22/2023 6:55am Edited Date/Time 10/22/2023 6:58am

7t idler pulley!  Come on Yamaha
 

 

7
ERGue
Posts
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Sedro Woolley, WA US
10/22/2023 8:13am Edited Date/Time 10/22/2023 8:14am

Suspension designed around an Ochain? From the the recent PB pod with Neko, sounds like he designed his axle path to be almost vertical with a high pivot point but sans idler, meaning probably lots of chain growth, but with an Ochain, problem solved! Seems like a great idea especially for an Enduro rig where pedaling efficiency is a priority. 

6
10/22/2023 8:43am
ERGue wrote:
Suspension designed around an Ochain? From the the recent PB pod with Neko, sounds like he designed his axle path to be almost vertical with a...

Suspension designed around an Ochain? From the the recent PB pod with Neko, sounds like he designed his axle path to be almost vertical with a high pivot point but sans idler, meaning probably lots of chain growth, but with an Ochain, problem solved! Seems like a great idea especially for an Enduro rig where pedaling efficiency is a priority. 

Yeah if you go back to his early YouTube videos he tests a high pivot version with no OChain vs low pivot with Ochain.  
 

The OChain in -9 or -12 can make a big difference, if you pair it with low engagement hub it’s amplified this feel, but the slop at start of pedal stroke is something to get used to.  For a downhill bike or park bike there’s not much of a downside using this device.

The next level that I’m working on is grinding down my smallest cog as a “neutral” gear for descending. This is with no Ochain. I heard about this setup on the PB podcast with Troy Brosnan.

7
ERGue
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Location
Sedro Woolley, WA US
10/22/2023 9:05am
ERGue wrote:
Suspension designed around an Ochain? From the the recent PB pod with Neko, sounds like he designed his axle path to be almost vertical with a...

Suspension designed around an Ochain? From the the recent PB pod with Neko, sounds like he designed his axle path to be almost vertical with a high pivot point but sans idler, meaning probably lots of chain growth, but with an Ochain, problem solved! Seems like a great idea especially for an Enduro rig where pedaling efficiency is a priority. 

Yeah if you go back to his early YouTube videos he tests a high pivot version with no OChain vs low pivot with Ochain.    ...

Yeah if you go back to his early YouTube videos he tests a high pivot version with no OChain vs low pivot with Ochain.  
 

The OChain in -9 or -12 can make a big difference, if you pair it with low engagement hub it’s amplified this feel, but the slop at start of pedal stroke is something to get used to.  For a downhill bike or park bike there’s not much of a downside using this device.

The next level that I’m working on is grinding down my smallest cog as a “neutral” gear for descending. This is with no Ochain. I heard about this setup on the PB podcast with Troy Brosnan.

Not really trying to start an Ochain discussion ( I have one it works) what I think is innovative is designing kinematics around one to eliminate the idler. 

6
10/22/2023 9:09am
Yeah if you go back to his early YouTube videos he tests a high pivot version with no OChain vs low pivot with Ochain.    ...

Yeah if you go back to his early YouTube videos he tests a high pivot version with no OChain vs low pivot with Ochain.  
 

The OChain in -9 or -12 can make a big difference, if you pair it with low engagement hub it’s amplified this feel, but the slop at start of pedal stroke is something to get used to.  For a downhill bike or park bike there’s not much of a downside using this device.

The next level that I’m working on is grinding down my smallest cog as a “neutral” gear for descending. This is with no Ochain. I heard about this setup on the PB podcast with Troy Brosnan.

Pedal kickback can be a problem when the rear wheel is spinning slowly enough for the pawls in the hub to engage. The big benefit of the O-chain is that it limits how much the cranks/pedals are chugged by the chain flopping about. Grinding down a gear was a old school trick but won't do much for a smoother ride. 

ERGue
Posts
63
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Location
Sedro Woolley, WA US
10/22/2023 9:21am
Yeah if you go back to his early YouTube videos he tests a high pivot version with no OChain vs low pivot with Ochain.    ...

Yeah if you go back to his early YouTube videos he tests a high pivot version with no OChain vs low pivot with Ochain.  
 

The OChain in -9 or -12 can make a big difference, if you pair it with low engagement hub it’s amplified this feel, but the slop at start of pedal stroke is something to get used to.  For a downhill bike or park bike there’s not much of a downside using this device.

The next level that I’m working on is grinding down my smallest cog as a “neutral” gear for descending. This is with no Ochain. I heard about this setup on the PB podcast with Troy Brosnan.

Pedal kickback can be a problem when the rear wheel is spinning slowly enough for the pawls in the hub to engage. The big benefit of...

Pedal kickback can be a problem when the rear wheel is spinning slowly enough for the pawls in the hub to engage. The big benefit of the O-chain is that it limits how much the cranks/pedals are chugged by the chain flopping about. Grinding down a gear was a old school trick but won't do much for a smoother ride. 

So by that reasoning chain growth as long as it does not exceed the capacity of the derailleur (to take up the slack) would have no negatives. Seems counter intuitive. Shoot starting an Ochain discussion whoops. 

10/22/2023 9:29am
ERGue wrote:
So by that reasoning chain growth as long as it does not exceed the capacity of the derailleur (to take up the slack) would have no...

So by that reasoning chain growth as long as it does not exceed the capacity of the derailleur (to take up the slack) would have no negatives. Seems counter intuitive. Shoot starting an Ochain discussion whoops. 

With the clutches on most derailleurs nowadays, they don’t really take up that much slack, causing chain growth to be more of an issue that it maybe used to be, in the name of a quieter ride.

2
Jakub_G
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353
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8/7/2019
Location
SK
10/22/2023 9:29am
Yeah if you go back to his early YouTube videos he tests a high pivot version with no OChain vs low pivot with Ochain.    ...

Yeah if you go back to his early YouTube videos he tests a high pivot version with no OChain vs low pivot with Ochain.  
 

The OChain in -9 or -12 can make a big difference, if you pair it with low engagement hub it’s amplified this feel, but the slop at start of pedal stroke is something to get used to.  For a downhill bike or park bike there’s not much of a downside using this device.

The next level that I’m working on is grinding down my smallest cog as a “neutral” gear for descending. This is with no Ochain. I heard about this setup on the PB podcast with Troy Brosnan.

The chain will come off if you do it like that, you need raised edge to keep if from getting stuck between cassette locking and frame.

4
earleb
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351
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Location
North Vancouver, BC CA
10/22/2023 9:56am

Tairin a little hub upstart here in Vancouver is making a silent clutch hub that disengages the pawls on coasting. The freehub can spin backwards thus taking up the pedal kickback slack.

https://www.tairinwheels.ca/product-page/silent-shogun-rear-hub

It has 5.5 degrees of float before engagement so less slop than OChain and without the sponge feel of an Onyx. 

Not many of them in the market yet for feedback. 

5
fluider
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37
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Location
SK
10/22/2023 10:25am

They say Shogun Silent allows for 5.5° play, not that it allows backward rotation. There is but one BMX brand that offers ratchet and pawl hub with simple mechanism that literally disengages pawls by pushing them down when rotating the sprocket back and absolutely allows riding backwards without having to backpedalling.

fluider
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SK
10/22/2023 10:29am

And Onyx is spongy because they chose low torque clutch in the name of weightweenism.

3
gibbon
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Location
wales GB
10/22/2023 11:04am
fluider wrote:

And Onyx is spongy because they chose low torque clutch in the name of weightweenism.

They use a sprag clutch and that's how they work. And they are heavy.

10
gibbon
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463
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Location
wales GB
10/22/2023 11:09am Edited Date/Time 10/22/2023 11:10am
ERGue wrote:
Suspension designed around an Ochain? From the the recent PB pod with Neko, sounds like he designed his axle path to be almost vertical with a...

Suspension designed around an Ochain? From the the recent PB pod with Neko, sounds like he designed his axle path to be almost vertical with a high pivot point but sans idler, meaning probably lots of chain growth, but with an Ochain, problem solved! Seems like a great idea especially for an Enduro rig where pedaling efficiency is a priority. 

He designed it with a higher pivot......and a larger chainring (38-40t) so anti-squat/pedal kickback values are kept normal without using an idler.

4
fluider
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Location
SK
10/22/2023 11:13am

Sprag clutch of larger diameter has larger torque capacity and doesn't suffer from behaving like spongy because on larger diameter there are more sprags to transmit the torque. I have built sprag clutch hub on 30mm axle which is one grade higher than Onyx Classic sprags and the spongy feeling is very very little. It appears only at start from track-standing or at lowest gears. Yes, it's not lightweight but it isn't light performing neither.

4
Jakub_G
Posts
353
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8/7/2019
Location
SK
10/22/2023 11:33am
fluider wrote:
They say Shogun Silent allows for 5.5° play, not that it allows backward rotation. There is but one BMX brand that offers ratchet and pawl hub...

They say Shogun Silent allows for 5.5° play, not that it allows backward rotation. There is but one BMX brand that offers ratchet and pawl hub with simple mechanism that literally disengages pawls by pushing them down when rotating the sprocket back and absolutely allows riding backwards without having to backpedalling.

1
earleb
Posts
351
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3/23/2023
Location
North Vancouver, BC CA
10/22/2023 11:42am
fluider wrote:
They say Shogun Silent allows for 5.5° play, not that it allows backward rotation. There is but one BMX brand that offers ratchet and pawl hub...

They say Shogun Silent allows for 5.5° play, not that it allows backward rotation. There is but one BMX brand that offers ratchet and pawl hub with simple mechanism that literally disengages pawls by pushing them down when rotating the sprocket back and absolutely allows riding backwards without having to backpedalling.

It full freecoasts. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cqn8SRkviZx/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvX2SK_pnRF/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

He has a pawl version and a DT Swiss style. He could do some better clips showing it. 

1
fluider
Posts
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Location
SK
10/22/2023 12:06pm

Yes. This video of theirs is much usefull as it shows the mechanism disengages pawls. Genuinly clever idea. The length of freecoasting is amazing.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CxdqbPUPgUm/

The mechanism I saw just a few days works the same way - there's triangular plate that pushes into pawls by its rotations and make them pop down from engangement position hence preventing them from engagement.

2
fluider
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Location
SK
10/22/2023 12:39pm

I found it. BSD Revolution Hub, it uses small planetary clutch.

3
drakefan705
Posts
75
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12/22/2022
Location
North Vancouver, BC CA
10/22/2023 10:14pm
fluider wrote:
They say Shogun Silent allows for 5.5° play, not that it allows backward rotation. There is but one BMX brand that offers ratchet and pawl hub...

They say Shogun Silent allows for 5.5° play, not that it allows backward rotation. There is but one BMX brand that offers ratchet and pawl hub with simple mechanism that literally disengages pawls by pushing them down when rotating the sprocket back and absolutely allows riding backwards without having to backpedalling.

Jakub_G wrote:

It is crazy that they aren't promoting these benefits more. I spoke to them at the Works in Progress show back in June and chain growth/pedal kickback wasn't even mentioned so I walked away thinking it was just another silent hub concept. 

2
10/22/2023 11:48pm
fluider wrote:

I found it. BSD Revolution Hub, it uses small planetary clutch.

Nope, it was invented by the lads at Freenight bmx, but has now been licensed out to BSD, among others.

Had one of the original freenight hubs.

1
fluider
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Location
SK
10/23/2023 12:04am

Did that hub have some mechanical problems inherent from its design? Like planetary gears breaking or something like that. I saw the Orings should be checked and replaced, and cone nuts tightened correctly.

1
brash
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943
Joined
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Location
AU
10/23/2023 2:09am

More cool stuff from suspension smith 

C78DFB94-D341-4AB5-98B8-2563CB1F5A3B.jpeg?VersionId=I7q7nHF2f G7YnHEK

A5FD1F51-752A-4EE8-8D1B-ABF45DFD9326

01D3855D-0623-429D-A5C1-A34DBFF0F94D

2219741A-864A-4D50-ACEF-FA80B1D42151

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11
Primoz
Posts
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8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/23/2023 2:48am Edited Date/Time 10/23/2023 2:56am
Dave_Camp wrote:

7t idler pulley!  Come on Yamaha
 

 

Isn't it an 8t? Also, not a pulley, it's the electric motor drive sprocket! A whole different thing 😜

Also sprag clutches are spongy due to their design, the forces in the sprags are high and they deform quite a bit. And because of the leverage ratio that's very noticeable on the pedals. Kinda like the sponginess of the front brake vs. the rear brake (a longer hose in the rear takes up more lever throw to deform). 

4
jamesma
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10/23/2022
Location
Easthampton, MA US
10/23/2023 6:13am

New EXT damper?Screenshot 20231023 090249 Instagram 0.jpg?VersionId=YVHhuYNgUZqbGvilfKZeW

1
monarchmason
Posts
289
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5/24/2022
Location
Nevada City, CA US
10/23/2023 7:32am
jamesma wrote:
New EXT damper?

New EXT damper?Screenshot 20231023 090249 Instagram 0.jpg?VersionId=YVHhuYNgUZqbGvilfKZeW

Hm. The top right one almost looks like a steering damper. But what it actually looks like is a pull shock. At least to me.

4
Dickon
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7
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4/23/2021
Location
Raleigh, NC US
10/23/2023 10:28am

I believe that's actually a damper they make for formula 1.

3
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