MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Prototype
rizleybear 8/13/2022 9:53pm
8/13/2022 9:53pm
prototype reign on pinkbikes story, looks generally like a giant but slacker and with in frame storage potentially based on the size of the downtube and what looks like a hatch under the bottle cage. also has the new fox shock

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metadave
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metadave 8/13/2022 10:08pm
8/13/2022 10:08pm
I've heard a late August release close to the new Glory. One of them might even get a certain retro paint job....
noideamtber 8/14/2022 10:54am
8/14/2022 10:54am
Id own giant bikes, but Here in NZ if you have a warranty you have to wait untill next production run, which in my case last time was over 6 months.... they dont carry warranty frames like many other brands do.
ORTOGONAL555 8/14/2022 11:08am
8/14/2022 11:08am
Not technically bike design related but the new Bell full face helmet Gwin is currently riding is probably near production/release. It is likely been released to media for testing as it is worn by M. Kazimer in the latest Grim Donut video from PB.
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fkawasaki 8/14/2022 3:48pm
8/14/2022 3:48pm
Bit late to post, but here are a few snaps I took of Finn's bike from MSA



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rizleybear 8/14/2022 4:09pm
8/14/2022 4:09pm
noideamtber wrote:
Id own giant bikes, but Here in NZ if you have a warranty you have to wait untill next production run, which in my case last...
Id own giant bikes, but Here in NZ if you have a warranty you have to wait untill next production run, which in my case last time was over 6 months.... they dont carry warranty frames like many other brands do.
oof, didnt know that one as a fellow nzer
bermslapper69 8/14/2022 7:10pm
8/14/2022 7:10pm
Was at EWS Burke this weekend. Didn’t see much but the entire commencal team were riding that VPP style prototype Cecile ravanel was spotted on a couple months ago.
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JohSch
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JohSch 8/15/2022 3:59am
8/15/2022 3:59am
rizleybear wrote:
prototype reign on pinkbikes story, looks generally like a giant but slacker and with in frame storage potentially based on the size of the downtube and...
prototype reign on pinkbikes story, looks generally like a giant but slacker and with in frame storage potentially based on the size of the downtube and what looks like a hatch under the bottle cage. also has the new fox shock

For pictures of the frame features (alu version):

https://bikerumor.com/spotted-prototype-giant-enduro-bike-at-ews-tweed-…

No stupid stuff to be seen, could be a great new Reign if it has size between 455 an 490 reach and more rear travel than 148.
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Primoz
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Primoz 8/15/2022 7:57am
8/15/2022 7:57am
fkawasaki wrote:
Bit late to post, but here are a few snaps I took of Finn's bike from MSA [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12864/s1200_P8060366.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12863/s1200_P8060371.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12866/s1200_P8060372.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12865/s1200_P8060385.jpg[/img]
Bit late to post, but here are a few snaps I took of Finn's bike from MSA



Is it just me or are the chainstay and the rocker link fairly smooth looking? I.e. not made on a CNC?
DubC
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DubC 8/15/2022 9:41am
8/15/2022 9:41am Edited Date/Time 8/15/2022 9:42am
fkawasaki wrote:
Bit late to post, but here are a few snaps I took of Finn's bike from MSA [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12864/s1200_P8060366.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12863/s1200_P8060371.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12866/s1200_P8060372.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12865/s1200_P8060385.jpg[/img]
Bit late to post, but here are a few snaps I took of Finn's bike from MSA



Was watching the MSA race with one of my buddies who aside from being damn fast on the MTB, is also a high speed roadie nerd. He brought up an interesting point about the cover on Finn's bike: He felt that over such a long track, that the aerodynamic gains the cover provided were pretty similar to having a fairing and would likely easily add up to 0.2 of a second.


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Jon_Angieri
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Jon_Angieri 8/15/2022 10:48am
8/15/2022 10:48am
fkawasaki wrote:
Bit late to post, but here are a few snaps I took of Finn's bike from MSA [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12864/s1200_P8060366.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12863/s1200_P8060371.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12866/s1200_P8060372.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12865/s1200_P8060385.jpg[/img]
Bit late to post, but here are a few snaps I took of Finn's bike from MSA



Primoz wrote:
Is it just me or are the chainstay and the rocker link fairly smooth looking? I.e. not made on a CNC?
And what’s between the rear tire and seat stay bridge? Stiffness adjuster?
shreda
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shreda 8/15/2022 12:08pm
8/15/2022 12:08pm
fkawasaki wrote:
Bit late to post, but here are a few snaps I took of Finn's bike from MSA [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12864/s1200_P8060366.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12863/s1200_P8060371.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12866/s1200_P8060372.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/14/12865/s1200_P8060385.jpg[/img]
Bit late to post, but here are a few snaps I took of Finn's bike from MSA



Primoz wrote:
Is it just me or are the chainstay and the rocker link fairly smooth looking? I.e. not made on a CNC?
Jon_Angieri wrote:
And what’s between the rear tire and seat stay bridge? Stiffness adjuster?
The right pedal…
Primoz
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Primoz 8/15/2022 12:20pm
8/15/2022 12:20pm
DubC wrote:
Was watching the MSA race with one of my buddies who aside from being damn fast on the MTB, is also a high speed roadie nerd...
Was watching the MSA race with one of my buddies who aside from being damn fast on the MTB, is also a high speed roadie nerd. He brought up an interesting point about the cover on Finn's bike: He felt that over such a long track, that the aerodynamic gains the cover provided were pretty similar to having a fairing and would likely easily add up to 0.2 of a second.


Not if it's flapping around in any way.
metadave
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metadave 8/15/2022 12:42pm
8/15/2022 12:42pm
Comparing aero on mountain bikes and road bikes isn't apples to apples, as was mentioned in the headset cable routing debacle of two months ago. Aero advatage on road is based on consistent speed and mostly consistent wind direction on smooth surfaces. Under about 40km/h the actual wattage gain is extremely small even for a larger tube and while they hit that speed at MSA, the trail conditions can completely negate those gains. That doesn't even take into account line or tire choice. Add in that the cover stresses and de-stresses as the suspension cycles, you wouldn't have a consistent surface for the air flow.

Remember when trek went huge with Aero in the late 2000's? There's a reason that didn't catch on, because it didn't do much.
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Brookstar 8/15/2022 12:49pm
8/15/2022 12:49pm
Looks like a new red Transition coming tomorrow. They have a teaser post in their Instagram story
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Primoz
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Primoz 8/15/2022 1:17pm
8/15/2022 1:17pm Edited Date/Time 8/17/2022 1:43am
metadave wrote:
Comparing aero on mountain bikes and road bikes isn't apples to apples, as was mentioned in the headset cable routing debacle of two months ago. Aero...
Comparing aero on mountain bikes and road bikes isn't apples to apples, as was mentioned in the headset cable routing debacle of two months ago. Aero advatage on road is based on consistent speed and mostly consistent wind direction on smooth surfaces. Under about 40km/h the actual wattage gain is extremely small even for a larger tube and while they hit that speed at MSA, the trail conditions can completely negate those gains. That doesn't even take into account line or tire choice. Add in that the cover stresses and de-stresses as the suspension cycles, you wouldn't have a consistent surface for the air flow.

Remember when trek went huge with Aero in the late 2000's? There's a reason that didn't catch on, because it didn't do much.
I think it did quite a bit, but was too cumbersome? Or was that for the skinsuits from MTB Cut?

In any case, on the road, the most gains can be done on the rider itself. You can gain some on the bike, but altering the position of the rider is where the big benefits are. In that regard you're hardly ever doing anything in DH as the rider is A LOT more active on a DH bike than on a road bike. Making a DH bike more aero is more or less along the lines of putting lipstick on a pig.

Food for thought, on the gravel road sections of Megavalanche there was a lot of people pedalling like crazy and I was easily passing them just tucking and not pedalling at all. In somewhat flappy clothes, in a full face, kneepads, far from ideal position on the bike, etc.
baronKanon 8/15/2022 1:26pm
8/15/2022 1:26pm
metadave wrote:
Comparing aero on mountain bikes and road bikes isn't apples to apples, as was mentioned in the headset cable routing debacle of two months ago. Aero...
Comparing aero on mountain bikes and road bikes isn't apples to apples, as was mentioned in the headset cable routing debacle of two months ago. Aero advatage on road is based on consistent speed and mostly consistent wind direction on smooth surfaces. Under about 40km/h the actual wattage gain is extremely small even for a larger tube and while they hit that speed at MSA, the trail conditions can completely negate those gains. That doesn't even take into account line or tire choice. Add in that the cover stresses and de-stresses as the suspension cycles, you wouldn't have a consistent surface for the air flow.

Remember when trek went huge with Aero in the late 2000's? There's a reason that didn't catch on, because it didn't do much.
Dood. I spoke with a former Norwegian DH champ who participated in the World Championships when skinsuits were still allowed. He put the skinsuit on for the race run, only to gain more speed than anticipated and overshot the first jump. Aero is not cool, and Palmer was why it went away. Look at the current racers: snug fitting pants rather than flapping shorts. Same for the tops. They even tuck their jerseys to avoid flapping.

Conclusion: aero matters. But cable routing aero doesn't give enough over such a short course. In road, they speak in seconds gained over an hour of riding...
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dolface 8/15/2022 1:37pm
8/15/2022 1:37pm
baronKanon wrote:
Dood. I spoke with a former Norwegian DH champ who participated in the World Championships when skinsuits were still allowed. He put the skinsuit on for...
Dood. I spoke with a former Norwegian DH champ who participated in the World Championships when skinsuits were still allowed. He put the skinsuit on for the race run, only to gain more speed than anticipated and overshot the first jump. Aero is not cool, and Palmer was why it went away. Look at the current racers: snug fitting pants rather than flapping shorts. Same for the tops. They even tuck their jerseys to avoid flapping.

Conclusion: aero matters. But cable routing aero doesn't give enough over such a short course. In road, they speak in seconds gained over an hour of riding...
There's an interview w/ Cathro somewhere where he talks about the skin suits they used the first time he was racing WCs and he said they estimated it was worth 1 second/minute at Ft. William. He chalked his 10th (I think?) place up there to the aero advantage.
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Uncle Cliffy
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Uncle Cliffy 8/15/2022 1:45pm
8/15/2022 1:45pm
DubC wrote:
Was watching the MSA race with one of my buddies who aside from being damn fast on the MTB, is also a high speed roadie nerd...
Was watching the MSA race with one of my buddies who aside from being damn fast on the MTB, is also a high speed roadie nerd. He brought up an interesting point about the cover on Finn's bike: He felt that over such a long track, that the aerodynamic gains the cover provided were pretty similar to having a fairing and would likely easily add up to 0.2 of a second.


Let me guess: he’s also an engineer…
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mtbman99 8/15/2022 3:02pm
8/15/2022 3:02pm
The aero claims on road bikes are like stiffness claims in MTB's. If you went back and added them all up model year over model year the claims are ridiculous.
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Lacanuck24 8/15/2022 5:50pm
8/15/2022 5:50pm
Wind tunnel data would be interesting to see for DH riders. Considering how tight times can be, there are definitely gains to be made on sections of tracks. I'd love to be able to gain a tenth or two here and there on a section like the Leogang motorway to negate where I lost a tenth or two somewhere else where aero isn't an advantage.

We've seen a few teams working on the aero-tuck positioning and surely they're working on their kit. What else aren't they talking about? Maybe Bruni's shock cover is also saving 1 watt?Laughing Laughing The skin-suit ban seems like a joke at this point with how tailored and tight kits are.

I've always been curious as to how many hundredths of a second, or even seconds could be saved with more aero full-face helmets, especially at that level. There has to be something to be gained without a giant visor. But to quote Rob Warner, "Honestly, if I crashed and broke the peak off, I would've pulled out. I would walk away from the track. I wouldn't carry on." Laughing Laughing Laughing
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metadave
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metadave 8/15/2022 8:55pm
8/15/2022 8:55pm
I did consider adding clothing to my comment, but post skin suit rules, most riders have ditched the baggy clothing over the last 8 years for kits that aren't skin suits but definitely kill most of the aero advantage of older skin suits for the most part. I'm not saying that over all aero doesn't have an affect in a race run, but trying to account for a .5 watts per minute in a 3-4 minute race that isn't consistant not only in course, but weather, and multiple other factors on a course and subject matter where .5 adds .25 seconds that can be lost in a slight break in traction or even a wet day where said aero cover could get soaked and add weight and mud. There's no measurable, consistant result in XC or DH that aero can contribute by itself that has dramaticly changed it's result consistently in the last 10 years.
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Primoz
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Primoz 8/15/2022 10:17pm
8/15/2022 10:17pm
Given the speeds aero stuff would hardly have an impact in XC, there the opportunities are much greater in DH I think. Even more so with modern high speed tracks. Though the flipside of the coin is that DH requires gymnastics on the bike to make it go where you want it to go, so there's that issue again...
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mrks
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mrks 8/15/2022 10:40pm
8/15/2022 10:40pm
Kazmier from PB wore the new Bell helmet in der Grimdonut pumptrack Video.
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metadave
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metadave 8/15/2022 11:27pm
8/15/2022 11:27pm
Primoz wrote:
Given the speeds aero stuff would hardly have an impact in XC, there the opportunities are much greater in DH I think. Even more so with...
Given the speeds aero stuff would hardly have an impact in XC, there the opportunities are much greater in DH I think. Even more so with modern high speed tracks. Though the flipside of the coin is that DH requires gymnastics on the bike to make it go where you want it to go, so there's that issue again...
I feel like we're on the same page, if DH was still in kamakazi era it would for sure have an advantage, but with current tracks it comes into play very little. Maybe a .01 of a second which absolutely matters in a few sections of a few races, but for the majority, it's spending money where it's the last aspect in play vs all the others for the podium.
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krabo83
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krabo83 8/16/2022 3:43am
8/16/2022 3:43am
new bell full-10 should be released soon… looks much better IMO than the full-9


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dirty booger 8/16/2022 6:42am
8/16/2022 6:42am
Lacanuck24 wrote:
Wind tunnel data would be interesting to see for DH riders. Considering how tight times can be, there are definitely gains to be made on sections...
Wind tunnel data would be interesting to see for DH riders. Considering how tight times can be, there are definitely gains to be made on sections of tracks. I'd love to be able to gain a tenth or two here and there on a section like the Leogang motorway to negate where I lost a tenth or two somewhere else where aero isn't an advantage.

We've seen a few teams working on the aero-tuck positioning and surely they're working on their kit. What else aren't they talking about? Maybe Bruni's shock cover is also saving 1 watt?Laughing Laughing The skin-suit ban seems like a joke at this point with how tailored and tight kits are.

I've always been curious as to how many hundredths of a second, or even seconds could be saved with more aero full-face helmets, especially at that level. There has to be something to be gained without a giant visor. But to quote Rob Warner, "Honestly, if I crashed and broke the peak off, I would've pulled out. I would walk away from the track. I wouldn't carry on." Laughing Laughing Laughing
Santa Cruz team went to the wind tunnel this year. And I am sure all the Speshy riders have been there.

A wind tunnel nerd I used to work with said anything above 15mph and aero starts kicking in. You can tell folks have been to the tunnel by their tuck positions. Look at the fast folks who tuck between the motorway jumps at Ft. Bill instead of pedaling.

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pinkrobe
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pinkrobe 8/16/2022 8:15am
8/16/2022 8:15am
Brookstar wrote:
Looks like a new red Transition coming tomorrow. They have a teaser post in their Instagram story
MTBrent wrote:
Patrol now in carbon...

https://www.transitionbikes.com/Bikes_Patrol.cfm
Crash replacement on the frame and guides for lines - not too shabby. October or later ETA, although they likely shipped the first batch to dealers already.
DubC
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DubC 8/16/2022 9:22am
8/16/2022 9:22am
DubC wrote:
Was watching the MSA race with one of my buddies who aside from being damn fast on the MTB, is also a high speed roadie nerd...
Was watching the MSA race with one of my buddies who aside from being damn fast on the MTB, is also a high speed roadie nerd. He brought up an interesting point about the cover on Finn's bike: He felt that over such a long track, that the aerodynamic gains the cover provided were pretty similar to having a fairing and would likely easily add up to 0.2 of a second.


Uncle Cliffy wrote:
Let me guess: he’s also an engineer…
Always a good one. He's not an engineer (he actually plays with Oncorhynchus for a living). That said, he does fancy driving trains in his time off.
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