MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Sir HC 9/2/2021 2:39am
9/2/2021 2:39am
Sol.Cob wrote:
Ye I guess so, would assume it is somewhat more free than O-chain since there isn't a max limit of 12 degrees though?
nskerb wrote:
I'm honestly not sure. I haven't tried any of that but the math seems to say the whole O-Chain or dummy gear is pointless past a...
I'm honestly not sure. I haven't tried any of that but the math seems to say the whole O-Chain or dummy gear is pointless past a certain speed based off of hub engagement. I believe I read somewhere that the speed where you feel pedal kickback is fairly low for a standard hub. Like quite a bit slower than a normal downhill pace. I think the O-Chain thing probably passes the parking lot feeling test (very low speeds) and people get sold on it, but then again it has become a pretty common sight on top level DH bikes. So who the hell knows.
Be good if one of the websites tested it properly using data acquisition, there were a couple of articles and comments on pinbike of less pawls having less kickback, they were called out on it and had no explanation, just regurgitating the marketing spiel*

*https://www.dtswiss.com/en/wheels/wheels-technology/engagement-angle-te…
Its very vague!
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Primoz
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Primoz 9/2/2021 3:03am
9/2/2021 3:03am
I remember a video or article (Pinkbike article?) recently, where pedal kickback of some bike was evaluated compared to the gear you are in and how fast you would have to go on a drop to see if the pedals kick back or not. The higher the kickback, the faster you have to go.

The point is that if you go fast enough, the hub will spin faster than the chain from the chaingrowth will tug on the freehub and there will be no effects. It also depends on how fast you go through the travel, but that is kind of fixed for a given person (maybe even overall?)

With a lower number of engagement points, there is a higher angle of freehub rotation before it locks in, so that could give you some more leeway too. Could. You could also be practically preloaded with the pawls engaged and even 2 engagement points (180° of free travel) won't help you.
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krabo83
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krabo83 9/2/2021 4:00am
9/2/2021 4:00am
Primoz wrote:
I remember a video or article (Pinkbike article?) recently, where pedal kickback of some bike was evaluated compared to the gear you are in and how...
I remember a video or article (Pinkbike article?) recently, where pedal kickback of some bike was evaluated compared to the gear you are in and how fast you would have to go on a drop to see if the pedals kick back or not. The higher the kickback, the faster you have to go.

The point is that if you go fast enough, the hub will spin faster than the chain from the chaingrowth will tug on the freehub and there will be no effects. It also depends on how fast you go through the travel, but that is kind of fixed for a given person (maybe even overall?)

With a lower number of engagement points, there is a higher angle of freehub rotation before it locks in, so that could give you some more leeway too. Could. You could also be practically preloaded with the pawls engaged and even 2 engagement points (180° of free travel) won't help you.
please don‘t derail this thread again with endless tech theories back and forth Smile
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bulletbass man 9/2/2021 4:34am
9/2/2021 4:34am
Zero Cool wrote:
Can’t post the picture from Pinkbike (as I’m a Luddite with no time), but it looks like maybe the Scott team have added weights to their...
Can’t post the picture from Pinkbike (as I’m a Luddite with no time), but it looks like maybe the Scott team have added weights to their Gambler in the hollow crank axles. Or I’m totally off the mark and it’s just stuffed with moto foam
noideamtber wrote:
That would be about the only designing scott themselves have done in years, dont they just buy better stuff from anther company(its a joke but its...
That would be about the only designing scott themselves have done in years, dont they just buy better stuff from anther company(its a joke but its also true)
Scott is one of a few brands actually engineering their bikes in house. Most brands draw a picture and send it to Taiwan to be made or an engineering firm in the states to be designed. The fact Scott is able to make some of the lightest bikes on market and not be known as least reliable brand ever is a testament to their engineering team’s skill.

I also don’t think this really matters tbh. Both models have advantages. Brands like Scott, santa, trek are able to constantly build on their previous work. Other brands have more flexibility in their r&d process and outsourcing can bring a level of expertise that few brands can afford full time. I’d be willing to bet most of the big brands that have an in-house engineering team aren’t necessarily investing a higher percentage of profits into r&d but simply have enough revenue that it makes sense to do it themselves rather than pay someone else or leave it up to manufacturer.
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willsmooth18 9/2/2021 5:13am
9/2/2021 5:13am
bulletbass man wrote:
Scott is one of a few brands actually engineering their bikes in house. Most brands draw a picture and send it to Taiwan to be made...
Scott is one of a few brands actually engineering their bikes in house. Most brands draw a picture and send it to Taiwan to be made or an engineering firm in the states to be designed. The fact Scott is able to make some of the lightest bikes on market and not be known as least reliable brand ever is a testament to their engineering team’s skill.

I also don’t think this really matters tbh. Both models have advantages. Brands like Scott, santa, trek are able to constantly build on their previous work. Other brands have more flexibility in their r&d process and outsourcing can bring a level of expertise that few brands can afford full time. I’d be willing to bet most of the big brands that have an in-house engineering team aren’t necessarily investing a higher percentage of profits into r&d but simply have enough revenue that it makes sense to do it themselves rather than pay someone else or leave it up to manufacturer.
When you say "most brands"... Which ones ?
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nskerb 9/2/2021 8:05am
9/2/2021 8:05am
Primoz wrote:
The amount of resistance the derailleur gives to the suspension is order's of magnitude lower than what the shock does...
Yeah I think that goes without saying. But the resistance provided by a clutched derailleur does affect suspension behavior. Otherwise main pivot locations would not be as highly discussed as they are.
Sonofbovril2 9/2/2021 8:14am
9/2/2021 8:14am
Primoz wrote:
The amount of resistance the derailleur gives to the suspension is order's of magnitude lower than what the shock does...
nskerb wrote:
Yeah I think that goes without saying. But the resistance provided by a clutched derailleur does affect suspension behavior. Otherwise main pivot locations would not be...
Yeah I think that goes without saying. But the resistance provided by a clutched derailleur does affect suspension behavior. Otherwise main pivot locations would not be as highly discussed as they are.
I think that is likely more in relation to anti-squat values on non idler designs than related to derailleur clutch resistance. Those pivot points at the chain line above the bottom bracket are usually located there to stop pedal bob
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WheelBased
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WheelBased 9/2/2021 8:26am
9/2/2021 8:26am
Looks like we've got another look at the new Yeti coming out. 6-bar, high pivot, idler, [optional] motor, and possible gearbox. Mostly just images, but they show some good graphs of anti-squat, anti-rise, and leverage. The big takeaway is the continued push toward separating suspension characteristics.

https://wheelbased.com/2021/09/02/6-bar-vehicle-suspension-linkage-with-drive-train-idler-by-yeti/
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Primoz
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Primoz 9/2/2021 11:50am
9/2/2021 11:50am
Primoz wrote:
The amount of resistance the derailleur gives to the suspension is order's of magnitude lower than what the shock does...
nskerb wrote:
Yeah I think that goes without saying. But the resistance provided by a clutched derailleur does affect suspension behavior. Otherwise main pivot locations would not be...
Yeah I think that goes without saying. But the resistance provided by a clutched derailleur does affect suspension behavior. Otherwise main pivot locations would not be as highly discussed as they are.
Sonofbovril2 wrote:
I think that is likely more in relation to anti-squat values on non idler designs than related to derailleur clutch resistance. Those pivot points at the...
I think that is likely more in relation to anti-squat values on non idler designs than related to derailleur clutch resistance. Those pivot points at the chain line above the bottom bracket are usually located there to stop pedal bob
This. And idler location in relation to the pivot has the same effect (except that the geometric antisquat has a higher effect than on standard suspension systems and you can get away with less antisquat from the chain itself).
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sspomer 9/2/2021 12:38pm
9/2/2021 12:38pm
minnaar's bike in vital raw w/ the gizmos plugged in. raw premiering on youtube now
https://youtu.be/5-KAySxK7XM


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sspomer
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sspomer 9/2/2021 12:47pm
9/2/2021 12:47pm
and a few more of fox remote doohickies



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mixmastamikal
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mixmastamikal 9/2/2021 1:41pm
9/2/2021 1:41pm
Can see the fork tracer on the front so maybe this is some new prototype data acquisition system from fox? Like monitoring internal pressure of the damper circuit or something? Cable from rear damper is only going to that box and cable going from button on the bar is probably going to tracer on fork.
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dolface
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dolface 9/2/2021 1:57pm
9/2/2021 1:57pm
mixmastamikal wrote:
Can see the fork tracer on the front so maybe this is some new prototype data acquisition system from fox? Like monitoring internal pressure of the...
Can see the fork tracer on the front so maybe this is some new prototype data acquisition system from fox? Like monitoring internal pressure of the damper circuit or something? Cable from rear damper is only going to that box and cable going from button on the bar is probably going to tracer on fork.
FWIW the translucent box the wire from the shock goes into says "Fox Live Valve" below the power switch and I can't see any wires coming out...
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brash
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brash 9/2/2021 3:31pm
9/2/2021 3:31pm
mixmastamikal wrote:
Can see the fork tracer on the front so maybe this is some new prototype data acquisition system from fox? Like monitoring internal pressure of the...
Can see the fork tracer on the front so maybe this is some new prototype data acquisition system from fox? Like monitoring internal pressure of the damper circuit or something? Cable from rear damper is only going to that box and cable going from button on the bar is probably going to tracer on fork.
They have been using it for a while now, Motion instruments DA.
Primoz
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Primoz 9/2/2021 10:01pm
9/2/2021 10:01pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvqsbHw0lbk

Some more shots, also from the other side. Looks like a normal(-ish) X2 with the dingus part of the bridge 'added' on.

As for built-in telemetry, don't really see it being done through the damper (you won't be able to see positions from it if I'm not mistaken) and I'm not sure I see the use of having telemetry on the bike all the time. Maaaaaybe for the top racers if it's really streamlined (light, unobtrusive, simple to use, etc.). Top level motorsports do run telemetry all the time, but they have the engineers to read all the data.
Colin McCarthy 9/3/2021 1:06am
9/3/2021 1:06am
Dang it. They put cables with wires into the place I thought my medicinal herbs would go.
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mtbman99 9/3/2021 9:49am
9/3/2021 9:49am
Primoz wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvqsbHw0lbk Some more shots, also from the other side. Looks like a normal(-ish) X2 with the dingus part of the bridge 'added' on. As for built-in...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvqsbHw0lbk

Some more shots, also from the other side. Looks like a normal(-ish) X2 with the dingus part of the bridge 'added' on.

As for built-in telemetry, don't really see it being done through the damper (you won't be able to see positions from it if I'm not mistaken) and I'm not sure I see the use of having telemetry on the bike all the time. Maaaaaybe for the top racers if it's really streamlined (light, unobtrusive, simple to use, etc.). Top level motorsports do run telemetry all the time, but they have the engineers to read all the data.
The latest dialed which I think is the one you linked to Minnar is looking at his phone and talking to Jordie about how his shock was behaving I believe. Not sure if it's notes or a coy peak at what is going on.
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Sonofbovril2 9/3/2021 10:05am
9/3/2021 10:05am
Primoz wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvqsbHw0lbk Some more shots, also from the other side. Looks like a normal(-ish) X2 with the dingus part of the bridge 'added' on. As for built-in...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvqsbHw0lbk

Some more shots, also from the other side. Looks like a normal(-ish) X2 with the dingus part of the bridge 'added' on.

As for built-in telemetry, don't really see it being done through the damper (you won't be able to see positions from it if I'm not mistaken) and I'm not sure I see the use of having telemetry on the bike all the time. Maaaaaybe for the top racers if it's really streamlined (light, unobtrusive, simple to use, etc.). Top level motorsports do run telemetry all the time, but they have the engineers to read all the data.
mtbman99 wrote:
The latest dialed which I think is the one you linked to Minnar is looking at his phone and talking to Jordie about how his shock...
The latest dialed which I think is the one you linked to Minnar is looking at his phone and talking to Jordie about how his shock was behaving I believe. Not sure if it's notes or a coy peak at what is going on.
I think he is looking at the telemetry readings on his phone
mtbman99 9/3/2021 11:02am
9/3/2021 11:02am
That's what I was meaning. So it would be telemetry built into the shock possibly
krabo83
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krabo83 9/3/2021 11:34am
9/3/2021 11:34am
Primoz wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvqsbHw0lbk Some more shots, also from the other side. Looks like a normal(-ish) X2 with the dingus part of the bridge 'added' on. As for built-in...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvqsbHw0lbk

Some more shots, also from the other side. Looks like a normal(-ish) X2 with the dingus part of the bridge 'added' on.

As for built-in telemetry, don't really see it being done through the damper (you won't be able to see positions from it if I'm not mistaken) and I'm not sure I see the use of having telemetry on the bike all the time. Maaaaaybe for the top racers if it's really streamlined (light, unobtrusive, simple to use, etc.). Top level motorsports do run telemetry all the time, but they have the engineers to read all the data.
mtbman99 wrote:
The latest dialed which I think is the one you linked to Minnar is looking at his phone and talking to Jordie about how his shock...
The latest dialed which I think is the one you linked to Minnar is looking at his phone and talking to Jordie about how his shock was behaving I believe. Not sure if it's notes or a coy peak at what is going on.
nahh, think he just has his settings saved on his phone, i do the same.
SB14
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SB14 9/3/2021 11:35am
9/3/2021 11:35am Edited Date/Time 9/3/2021 11:40am
Edit: thought it was the settings, but looked at the episode again. It seems they are looking at telemetry-data. But that does not confirm that the live-valve dingus is the telemetry.
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mtbman99 9/3/2021 11:58am
9/3/2021 11:58am
They could just be playing a game as well....and it's just a remote electronic lockout on the shock. Just because it says live valve on the box doesn't mean it's live valve in the box
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sspomer
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sspomer 9/3/2021 12:09pm
9/3/2021 12:09pm
myriam's shock box

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jimmypop
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jimmypop 9/3/2021 12:42pm
9/3/2021 12:42pm
mtbman99 wrote:
They could just be playing a game as well....and it's just a remote electronic lockout on the shock. Just because it says live valve on the...
They could just be playing a game as well....and it's just a remote electronic lockout on the shock. Just because it says live valve on the box doesn't mean it's live valve in the box
Yes, this is a great course to test a lockout on. Good thinking.
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Nico_Ofner 9/3/2021 2:56pm
9/3/2021 2:56pm
krabo83 wrote:
nahh, think he just has his settings saved on his phone, i do the same.
No, that's the Motioninstruments app for the data. They are talking about compression and rebound velocities
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dolface
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dolface 9/3/2021 4:10pm
9/3/2021 4:10pm
mtbman99 wrote:
They could just be playing a game as well....and it's just a remote electronic lockout on the shock. Just because it says live valve on the...
They could just be playing a game as well....and it's just a remote electronic lockout on the shock. Just because it says live valve on the box doesn't mean it's live valve in the box
True, but that's a pretty huge box if it's just a power switch, antenna and battery (and yes, proto etc but *I* could make that smaller and I can barely solder).
mfoga
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mfoga 9/3/2021 5:36pm
9/3/2021 5:36pm
Greg talked about the new telemetry things in the syndicate video.
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