MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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AndehM
Posts
631
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5/7/2018
Location
El Granada, CA US
Fantasy
1/28/2021 3:32pm
I can't see why you'd want to eliminate the hanger. It's designed to be a low-cost part to fail before the derailleur. I think PB and others just like the idea of being able to easily get replacements anywhere, rather than every bike having it's own special hanger.
3
1/28/2021 3:44pm
Propain teasing a 2/2 release on IG. It climbs. It jibs. It shreds. it's huge.

What could they be releasing? The bike is clearly a single crown in the shadowy image. They just released the Spindrift? An ebike version of that? Or something more like the 5010? But then what's the "It's huge" part about?
2
1/28/2021 3:54pm
Propain teasing a 2/2 release on IG. It climbs. It jibs. It shreds. it's huge. What could they be releasing? The bike is clearly a single...
Propain teasing a 2/2 release on IG. It climbs. It jibs. It shreds. it's huge.

What could they be releasing? The bike is clearly a single crown in the shadowy image. They just released the Spindrift? An ebike version of that? Or something more like the 5010? But then what's the "It's huge" part about?
I'm an idiot. Their short travel bike is the Hugene.
2
1/28/2021 4:40pm
AndehM wrote:
I can't see why you'd want to eliminate the hanger. It's designed to be a low-cost part to fail before the derailleur. I think PB and...
I can't see why you'd want to eliminate the hanger. It's designed to be a low-cost part to fail before the derailleur. I think PB and others just like the idea of being able to easily get replacements anywhere, rather than every bike having it's own special hanger.
Problem these days is that the hangers are generally cnc’d aluminium parts and are much more solid than the derailleurs. All of the 12 speed shimano derailleurs (excluding xtr) connect the cage to the main body with plastic. Seems like the system could do with a re think?
smelly
Posts
218
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3/7/2016
Location
Colorado Springs, CO US
1/28/2021 4:54pm
AndehM wrote:
I can't see why you'd want to eliminate the hanger. It's designed to be a low-cost part to fail before the derailleur. I think PB and...
I can't see why you'd want to eliminate the hanger. It's designed to be a low-cost part to fail before the derailleur. I think PB and others just like the idea of being able to easily get replacements anywhere, rather than every bike having it's own special hanger.
This was true when hangers cost $15 and were made of fondue, while derailleurs were $80 and made of cheddar.

Now that hangers are rock solid and $100 and derailleurs are also pretty solid but like $900, it's kind of a different story, though I agree they still should be a low-cost designed to fail part that you can easily carry in your pocket, and the 'every bike has its own hanger' is an idea that never should have happened.
Primoz
Posts
4555
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
1/28/2021 9:14pm
Sram patented a direct mount derailleur fitting with the UDH interface perfectly a few years ago.

Why do it? Stiffness. Which means accuracy. Which is needed due to small gaps between gears compared to say 9spd.

Eagle is notoriously finicky about both hanger straightness and (experienced it a couple of times now) derailleur straightness. I've now seen two GXes bent and twisted in such a manner that they had 11 gears across the whole 10-50 cassette.
1/28/2021 10:13pm
WheelBased wrote:
Here's a strange one. Yeti have applied to patent a linear derailleur. They're using a 6R linkage system that moves the derailleur in a perfectly linear...
Here's a strange one. Yeti have applied to patent a linear derailleur. They're using a 6R linkage system that moves the derailleur in a perfectly linear path. Yeti say this will be smaller, lighter, simpler, and allow for more freedom for designers. Additionally, Yeti say this will improve the performance of the derailleur system. The cool part for me is that they even include graphs with linkage movements comparing their design to SRAM and Shimano.

https://wheelbased.com/2021/01/25/linear-derailleur-mechanism-by-yeti/
So interesting! Yeti design team was some wild ideas
1
Jakub_G
Posts
353
Joined
8/7/2019
Location
SK
1/29/2021 12:43am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2021 12:45am
Primoz wrote:
Sram patented a direct mount derailleur fitting with the UDH interface perfectly a few years ago. Why do it? Stiffness. Which means accuracy. Which is needed...
Sram patented a direct mount derailleur fitting with the UDH interface perfectly a few years ago.

Why do it? Stiffness. Which means accuracy. Which is needed due to small gaps between gears compared to say 9spd.

Eagle is notoriously finicky about both hanger straightness and (experienced it a couple of times now) derailleur straightness. I've now seen two GXes bent and twisted in such a manner that they had 11 gears across the whole 10-50 cassette.
Yeah they are preparing the market for DM mechs few year ahead, this should help it to succeed unlike previous attempts... http://www.peterverdone.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/US20180265169A1p… It also seems to me like their way around shimano shadow technology, SRAM mechs are sticking out considerably further out than Shomano ones and this would even the field or maybe even turn it around.

Verbl Kint
Posts
590
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9/13/2013
Location
Quezon City PH
1/30/2021 5:52am
SRAM needs to make their clutch better.
3
Primoz
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4555
Joined
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Location
SI
1/30/2021 7:41am
Interestingly they have a hydraulic clutch in production for the road, but for some reason it's not ready yet for MTB?

Incremental updates? Smile

If anything, considering what's going on with Shimano derailleurs, I think it'd make sense to have the Sram version servicable too.
1
Noeserd
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183
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10/21/2020
Location
TR
1/30/2021 9:12am
Is orbea going to update the rallon this year ?
1/30/2021 10:57am
Verbl Kint wrote:
SRAM needs to make their clutch better.
Just fit a Shimano mech, #ShEagle

Was getting through an Eagle X01 mech every 6 months, jockey wheels lasting 3. Sram mechs are garbage, warranty was good though, bought two mechs and warrantied each of them twice.
Trocko
Posts
152
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11/23/2010
Location
Rocky, CO US
1/30/2021 11:06am
Arktos 150/170 pics and specs. Can change to 120/130 29, 135/150 29 and mullet, 150/170 29 and mullet



1
1
Primoz
Posts
4555
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Location
SI
1/30/2021 1:46pm
Sir HC wrote:
Just fit a Shimano mech, #ShEagle Was getting through an Eagle X01 mech every 6 months, jockey wheels lasting 3. Sram mechs are garbage, warranty was...
Just fit a Shimano mech, #ShEagle

Was getting through an Eagle X01 mech every 6 months, jockey wheels lasting 3. Sram mechs are garbage, warranty was good though, bought two mechs and warrantied each of them twice.
Here I am going into my 3rd season with the X01 on original jockeys...
6
1
dolface
Posts
1671
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10/26/2015
Location
CA US
1/30/2021 3:54pm
Primoz wrote:
Here I am going into my 3rd season with the X01 on original jockeys...
Same here. I've had to replace a couple of hangers but other than that it's been rock-solid. (We don't have UK-grade slop in northern California but we do have a fair amount in the winter).
1
1/30/2021 5:17pm
We have slop 6 months of the year and intermittent in the other 6 months. Had an enduro that would chew through bearings at an alarming rate, poorly sealed and wasnt the best alignment either!
metadave
Posts
1247
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2/15/2016
Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
Fantasy
1/30/2021 5:21pm
Sir HC wrote:
Just fit a Shimano mech, #ShEagle Was getting through an Eagle X01 mech every 6 months, jockey wheels lasting 3. Sram mechs are garbage, warranty was...
Just fit a Shimano mech, #ShEagle

Was getting through an Eagle X01 mech every 6 months, jockey wheels lasting 3. Sram mechs are garbage, warranty was good though, bought two mechs and warrantied each of them twice.
Primoz wrote:
Here I am going into my 3rd season with the X01 on original jockeys...
Teach me your ways, wizard......
1/30/2021 6:12pm
Verbl Kint wrote:
SRAM needs to make their clutch better.
Sir HC wrote:
Just fit a Shimano mech, #ShEagle Was getting through an Eagle X01 mech every 6 months, jockey wheels lasting 3. Sram mechs are garbage, warranty was...
Just fit a Shimano mech, #ShEagle

Was getting through an Eagle X01 mech every 6 months, jockey wheels lasting 3. Sram mechs are garbage, warranty was good though, bought two mechs and warrantied each of them twice.
Shimano 12 speed mechs are kinda trash though ngl. My xt mech has a weird dead spot in the clutch before it stiffens up that didn’t exist on 11 speed
1
1/31/2021 12:17am
metadave wrote:
Teach me your ways, wizard......
I am not going to speak on behalf of Primoz, but the ancient druids of the mtb practiced the the arts of maintenance, which has been thougt to be forgotten some time in the 2010's. There may be some scrolls hidden on deep into the search results in the Great Maze of the Google.
11
Primoz
Posts
4555
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8/1/2009
Location
SI
1/31/2021 1:19am
metadave wrote:
Teach me your ways, wizard......
Honestly I don't know what the catch is, but I'd be really happy to know. It might be the riding style or the terrain. Might even be the bike design and the way it pulls on the chain? Though my current bike has the longest effective chainstay length at full travel, so it does pull on the chain quite a bit.

Dunno... I have bent a few hangers, my current ones are very soft though. Other than that, I've seen two broken derailleurs a few years back in Davos (Enduro2 racing), where one of our guys lost the upper jockey (I think the cage cracked on the threads) and another one tore it off completely, where the two broken ones were then put together to make one working one.

I did notice two very bent GX Eagles in the past year where they were bent in such a manner that they had only 11 gears across the whole cassette (jumping two cogs in one place). But those didn't have clear signs of where they were hit, they were just mangled.

These kind of experiences of mine make me think that gearboxes have more or less lost their chance, 1x wide range drivetrains simply work too well and are compatible with bikes going years in the past without any changes.
1
LLLLL
Posts
298
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8/30/2015
Location
IE
1/31/2021 1:53am
AndehM wrote:
I can't see why you'd want to eliminate the hanger. It's designed to be a low-cost part to fail before the derailleur. I think PB and...
I can't see why you'd want to eliminate the hanger. It's designed to be a low-cost part to fail before the derailleur. I think PB and others just like the idea of being able to easily get replacements anywhere, rather than every bike having it's own special hanger.
jofish wrote:
Problem these days is that the hangers are generally cnc’d aluminium parts and are much more solid than the derailleurs. All of the 12 speed shimano...
Problem these days is that the hangers are generally cnc’d aluminium parts and are much more solid than the derailleurs. All of the 12 speed shimano derailleurs (excluding xtr) connect the cage to the main body with plastic. Seems like the system could do with a re think?
12 speed needs a stiffer mount for the smaller tolerances.
2
1/31/2021 7:34am
I don’t think gearboxes are dead. I’ve had way too many ride ending derailleur issues. Especially when things are sloppy. (Just two weeks ago a derailleur jammed a bit with mud and pulled into the spokes ripping it in half.). Didn’t even have a 150 miles on it.

Someone will figure out the price and drag issues. Once that happens Seeing a derailleur on a bike will scream cheap the same way quick release vs thru axle does.
Primoz
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4555
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Location
SI
1/31/2021 7:41am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2021 7:42am
The drag part of the equation can be solved with the Shimano patent solution - gears and chains. Everything else will be draggy by design.

Realistically I only see Shimano ushering in gearboxes, nobody else will have the reach to convince the industry to completely rethink frame design and manufacturing, that will be the biggest hurdle for gearboxes if you ask me, much more than drag and market perception.

E-bikes had the option of squeezing in the gearbox (add it to the mid drive unit) very simply, but that train was also missed.
3
Edthorne
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293
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4/17/2020
Location
CA
1/31/2021 7:58am
Verbl Kint wrote:
SRAM needs to make their clutch better.
Sir HC wrote:
Just fit a Shimano mech, #ShEagle Was getting through an Eagle X01 mech every 6 months, jockey wheels lasting 3. Sram mechs are garbage, warranty was...
Just fit a Shimano mech, #ShEagle

Was getting through an Eagle X01 mech every 6 months, jockey wheels lasting 3. Sram mechs are garbage, warranty was good though, bought two mechs and warrantied each of them twice.
Shimano 12 speed mechs are kinda trash though ngl. My xt mech has a weird dead spot in the clutch before it stiffens up that didn’t...
Shimano 12 speed mechs are kinda trash though ngl. My xt mech has a weird dead spot in the clutch before it stiffens up that didn’t exist on 11 speed
I agree, through one season of riding I had to service my M8100 clutch three times, I also was off the bike from the August-October because of an injury. I do wash my bike frequently which I suspect may be the issue. Shimano has no real seal on their clutch cover which means the lubricant gets washed out very quickly. On the other hand I ran a GX Eagle last year with no real issues aside from a hanger alignment now and again.

In my opinion HG+ is amazing but the new Shimano mechs need refinement.

On another note, the crash that put me out for the latter part of the season bent my derailleur cage pretty badly (not surprising really) but did nothing to my hanger. So either Rocky has overly durable hangers, or Shimano cages are a bit soft.
1/31/2021 9:57am
I had to warranty a clutch on a new XT derailleur not too long ago.. They sent me 4 clutch units.. I think they know something is amiss.. Thankfully, it's an easy replacement..
1
Primoz
Posts
4555
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
1/31/2021 12:13pm
Where did the 'derailleur above the cassette' question go? Smile (I have e-mail notifications, I see everything Tongue )

Yes, there is a good reason. The chain is under tension there. Look at how well the front derailleur worked.
Mtbforlife4
Posts
44
Joined
5/5/2013
Location
Grand Junction, CO US
1/31/2021 6:15pm
I had to warranty a clutch on a new XT derailleur not too long ago.. They sent me 4 clutch units.. I think they know something...
I had to warranty a clutch on a new XT derailleur not too long ago.. They sent me 4 clutch units.. I think they know something is amiss.. Thankfully, it's an easy replacement..
I have a shimano derailleur to warranty, where do you submit your claim?
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