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True, but nowdays it's not necessarily gonna be one or the other. You could have two frames with the same tolerances and similar strength, and one of them has the better shock tune, so you like it more, that's all I'm saying. I would be surprised if there was a significant difference in frame stiffness/Kinematics with the same suspension layout and similar geo.

I saw that Adam Brayton was using the new Maxxis DHF in the european cup track preview in Fort William. Release date approaching soon? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGjNXvOQq88

I'm not talking about damper architecture, Charger 2.1 vs 3.1. I'm talking about the individual tune that the bike manufacturer puts on the stock bike. The shock can have the same eye to eye and stroke dimensions + same Charger 3.1 damper, but one frame OEM uses medium compression tune, and a different frame OEM uses a light compression tune. That difference in stock tune can be more influential than leverage rate and a bunch of other factors unless the buyer/reviewer is going to do a bunch of aftermarket work. If you're talking about stock bikes with equal build spec...

I’d take a well designed and built frame with a lower spec damper over a misaligned, poorly thought out frame with a fancy one any day. You can upgrade a damper, it’s much harder to upgrade out of bad engineering and manufacturing. As has been said above, even then, some shock spec or kinematic choices will mean different things to different riders.

I'd be willing to bet the Tallboy has a 45 mm stroke. The Hightower has historically been on a 55 mm stroke shock family (early V2 models used 52,5 mm) so I wouldn't be surprised if they used a small shock.

How does the weight difference of the bikes impact what you are saying, if at all? If I am not mistaken (I'm not a moto person), your typical moto is at least 5-6 times heavier than your typical mountain bike. Does this not change the physics of what you are saying? I'm mainly thinking that on a rough section of track, compared to a mountain bike, a moto will have a higher inertia creating a solid platform you can stabilise yourself against.

What are you defining as top tier? Reece has been world champion and is regarded as one of the best, if not the best, mud rider in the world. He hasn't been front of the pack as of late if that is what you mean? I agree that I don't think you can draw firm conclusions about set up and results without back-to-back testing in a controlled environment (even then it is difficult).

Is it also safe to assume that e-mopeds have a bit different maintenance issues than MTBs? And I am not talking just about motors or teethy bits.

Nice one @Sir HC - I think a lot of people forget frames that are ki d to bearings are kind to riders, and they definitely work better with less friction and bind up that others.

Nicolai/Geometron My G1 is on its second set of frame bearings, clocked in at coming up to 950,000ft of descending. Doesn’t get an easy life as it’s mainly on uplifts/chairlifts and sees a pressure washer all to frequently. proper frame alignment Tolerance of the bearing seats is very very good Angular contact at the main pivot Additional oring seals to protect the bearing On the flipside, the SC Vala I have is terrible, 450000ft of descending (in 2000 miles) and it’s on bearing set 3. Mix of bearing failures from simply wearing them out and dirt ingress. Bike never seees...

Whichever bike has the best damper tune specced probably wins at that point. I'm pretty sure that's a big deciding factor between bikes with different linkage designs also though. You would need control wheels, and tires at a minimum, and probably drivetrain also to get any useful data about which frame works better.

If we compare the new horst link tallboy with the Allied Fitz, Forbidden Reya and Transition Smuggler, there a few difference: Tallboy is the only bike using a trunion shock most likely a 185x50, Smuggler and Fitz use a normal 210x50 shock and Reya use a 190x45 shock. So Reya most likely have a higher starting leverage ratio that could limit heavier rider that are getting close to the shock max pressure. Reya, Smuggler and most likely Tallboy use double bearing setup at the chainstay. Santa Cruz does the same for the Bullit and Vala. Allied Fitz has no exploded...

Loooks like a prooooocess eh

I’d love to see a shoot out of trail bikes using the same linkage designs. It would really interesting to start to dig a bit deeper as to what sets them apart - quality control, kinematics, maintenance, etc etc.

visual summary

New Tallboy all through this: https://youtu.be/06aPj2jKe4U?si=n0VbMiFXlzlGwgF2

Adjustable rear travel at least?

These were launched a month ago, although sounds like delays on deliveries.

Zerode are launching a new frameset, looks like two travel variants, 160 and 140mm. Shadow and Shadow Trail. 450mm chainstays on the large too. Internal frame storage too. Curious what the kinematics are. Looks pretty cool imo! https://zerodebikes.com/products/shadow-origin Rob continues his streak of only launching bikes like a month or two after I buy something else...

From what Evil have said (Jason Moeschler) it’s not a DH dedicated bike - there just isn’t the market for them, it’ll be the new Wreckoning but it’s not going to be out anytime soon… so he says.. he’s on instagram as evil.bikes.smooth.operator and answers questions every Friday in his stories. This bike was in it this week.