What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?
At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for a bike and he had found a Santa Cruz, but he didn't like it because it has no ”vertical shock”. I laughed and explained to him that it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things for a shock to be ”vertical”. Now I see this on my favorite MTB site.
Is it a Pinkbike-ish ”wAtEr bOtTLe sPaCe iS sOmEtHiNG i LiVe aNd diE fOr”?
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for...
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?
At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for a bike and he had found a Santa Cruz, but he didn't like it because it has no ”vertical shock”. I laughed and explained to him that it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things for a shock to be ”vertical”. Now I see this on my favorite MTB site.
Is it a Pinkbike-ish ”wAtEr bOtTLe sPaCe iS sOmEtHiNG i LiVe aNd diE fOr”?
Thanks, Mx
I think it’s just a reference to the fact that Ari has multiple suspension layouts with different aesthetics
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for...
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?
At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for a bike and he had found a Santa Cruz, but he didn't like it because it has no ”vertical shock”. I laughed and explained to him that it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things for a shock to be ”vertical”. Now I see this on my favorite MTB site.
Is it a Pinkbike-ish ”wAtEr bOtTLe sPaCe iS sOmEtHiNG i LiVe aNd diE fOr”?
Two Fridays ago I saw a Fezzari crew pedaling up the American fork canyon road (alpine loop) at 6am with a bunch of camera gear. I thought they were all on the carbon Timp Peak, but I guess at least one of them was on this thing.
Base build for only $800 more than frameset... yeesh. Gotta wonder how cheap those parts are.
A lot of the cost difference on the frame set vs complete sport build is the Super Deluxe Ultimate vs the Suntour Edge shock. There's almost a $400 difference here. If the frameset shipped with the same shock as the Sport build, it would drop the price a good amount. The frameset being spec'd with the higher end shock because most people buying a frameset are looking for something a bit nicer.
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for...
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?
At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for a bike and he had found a Santa Cruz, but he didn't like it because it has no ”vertical shock”. I laughed and explained to him that it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things for a shock to be ”vertical”. Now I see this on my favorite MTB site.
Is it a Pinkbike-ish ”wAtEr bOtTLe sPaCe iS sOmEtHiNG i LiVe aNd diE fOr”?
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Norco had the different size battery option a couple years ago. 540, 720 and 900 watt hour sizes. They were using the EP8 at the time...
Norco had the different size battery option a couple years ago. 540, 720 and 900 watt hour sizes. They were using the EP8 at the time. Unfortunately the interface sucked and they were prone to connectivity issues among other things.
I'm riding one of these bikes now, fantastic until the battery shits itself 40km from home lol
I figured out a reset of the battery fixes it, the arm of my riding glasses is the perfect tool to slide between my frame and battery and get the button. Been in the middle of nowhere makes you do Macguyver type shit.
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Thank you for taking your time and explaining this, honestly!
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
Norco had the different size battery option a couple years ago. 540, 720 and 900 watt hour sizes. They were using the EP8 at the time...
Norco had the different size battery option a couple years ago. 540, 720 and 900 watt hour sizes. They were using the EP8 at the time. Unfortunately the interface sucked and they were prone to connectivity issues among other things.
I'm riding one of these bikes now, fantastic until the battery shits itself 40km from home lolI figured out a reset of the battery fixes it...
I'm riding one of these bikes now, fantastic until the battery shits itself 40km from home lol
I figured out a reset of the battery fixes it, the arm of my riding glasses is the perfect tool to slide between my frame and battery and get the button. Been in the middle of nowhere makes you do Macguyver type shit.
What's funny is it's not like the fact that those batteries are removable is what makes them unreliable. I had the Sight VLT gen before yours with the fixed battery and it had battery connectivity issues too! For this reason I'm glad Bosch forces companies to use their electrical components/batteries only.
Sometime back Transition had their Deore CF Smuggler builds on sale, for LESS than the frame only option. They were willing to pay you $300 to take...
Sometime back Transition had their Deore CF Smuggler builds on sale, for LESS than the frame only option.
They were willing to pay you $300 to take the sh**ty parts off their hands. JK, Deore drivetrain in particular is very good, much better than GX.
They weren’t paying you, the frames just were/are marked up that much. I’d guess back then transition weren’t paying more than $1000 per frame w/ shock
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so...
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so...
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a...
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
Even more reason that motor mounts should be standardized and allow the consumer a motor only option for upgrading. Less waste more customization. Frame only and motor should be way more common. But I get it, that eats into companies profits.
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so...
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a...
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a...
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
I have a feeling it’s because the next generation of stuff that’s coming is too soon to make the money back on molds.
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.I...
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
Crestline uses prototype molds. So he literally can’t make more than like 200 before they wear out IIRC
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.I...
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
Crestline uses prototype molds. So he literally can’t make more than like 200 before they wear out IIRC
Yeah, I am not sure of the exact details and other possible differences, but my understanding is that prototype molds are made from aluminum and thus are much faster and easier to machine, whereas full production run molds are steel and are much more difficult, time consuming, and therefore costly to produce.
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the forum! That seems like a well thought out and competitively priced bike!
I was just looking at the specs and FAQ on the Ari website and I see there is a high/low setting. Is that achieved through the use of different chips on the lower shock mount? I see the chips are flat on the bottom, so they can't simply be flipped 180 degrees.
Any idea on what these various builds will weigh, or if that info isn't available yet, what the frame will weigh?
I see it is mentioned in the FAQ that the battery can be removed without removing the motor. Any idea about how long this would take if one wanted to do it in the trailhead parking lot to extend ride time?
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.I...
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
Yeah, I am not sure of the exact details and other possible differences, but my understanding is that prototype molds are made from aluminum and thus...
Yeah, I am not sure of the exact details and other possible differences, but my understanding is that prototype molds are made from aluminum and thus are much faster and easier to machine, whereas full production run molds are steel and are much more difficult, time consuming, and therefore costly to produce.
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum to lower cost but it would wear out super quick. Anything being done to bring down the cost of the longer term moulds the bike industry uses? Seems like the Chinese brands have made advances here with how they’re making cheap carbon that’s actually good. It’s been happening in road for a few years and now we’re seeing it in MTB with Amflow’s carbon bikes costing the same as everyone else’s aluminum ones.
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum...
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum to lower cost but it would wear out super quick. Anything being done to bring down the cost of the longer term moulds the bike industry uses? Seems like the Chinese brands have made advances here with how they’re making cheap carbon that’s actually good. It’s been happening in road for a few years and now we’re seeing it in MTB with Amflow’s carbon bikes costing the same as everyone else’s aluminum ones.
I’m not sure that Amflow isn’t being propped up by the government to keep prices down. BYD does it with cars so I just assume everything tech out of China lately isn’t competing on the same terms as everyone else is (discounting the labor cost differences). Could be wrong, it’s not like e-bike money compares with electric car money.
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum...
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum to lower cost but it would wear out super quick. Anything being done to bring down the cost of the longer term moulds the bike industry uses? Seems like the Chinese brands have made advances here with how they’re making cheap carbon that’s actually good. It’s been happening in road for a few years and now we’re seeing it in MTB with Amflow’s carbon bikes costing the same as everyone else’s aluminum ones.
I’m not sure that Amflow isn’t being propped up by the government to keep prices down. BYD does it with cars so I just assume everything...
I’m not sure that Amflow isn’t being propped up by the government to keep prices down. BYD does it with cars so I just assume everything tech out of China lately isn’t competing on the same terms as everyone else is (discounting the labor cost differences). Could be wrong, it’s not like e-bike money compares with electric car money.
Give the podcast that Jeff and Charlie did on DJI/ Amflow/ Avinox a listen... The DJI money is pretty damn big...
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so...
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a...
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.I...
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
I like what Crestline is able to do and would consider buying one. $12K bikes + small company + few employees + less overhead = Small batch bikes and the ability to pivot as the market changes.
I would like to see who, on a global scale, thinks they need NEED all the software "calculations" on their bike?
Is the bike industry 2.0 really competing at the software level now? Suspension, components, geometry, etc. has all leveled off, so now it's software?
"Well my bike calculates X, and shows it here. Does yours?" is that really a selling point?
Do data and dashboards make my ride better? Are you taking suggestions? I'd like one that says I dabbed 5 times on that climb. Billy90210 did it five minutes ago and had no dabs. And adds: Ha sucker, do it again (That's a platinum level feature you have to subscribe to, monthly) See how I just monetized that?
Yay tech! (I work in tech so I can make fun of it)
interesting PR from Bosch citing data from their app. 62 million miles ridden by US ebikers on their platform over the last 3 years
------------------------
U.S. Riders cover an estimated 62 million miles on eBikes with a Bosch System
Insights from three years of eBike Flow app data
Foothill Ranch, Calif. (September 3, 2026)
Since the first eBikes equipped with the Bosch smart system reached riders in the United States, those riders have covered an estimated 62 million miles, according to anonymized, aggregated usage data from Bosch eBike Systems.
More than 52 million of those miles are measured directly, drawn from riders who have opted into the eBike Flow app through activity tracking and connected-bike odometer readings. Conservatively extrapolated across the full number of eBikes running the Bosch smart system in the U.S., the total comes to roughly 62 million miles.
Laid end to end, 62 million miles is close to 2,500 laps of the Earth at the equator, or about two-thirds of the distance from here to the sun. It is also a little more than 22,000 rides of the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route, the 2,745-mile ribbon of dirt that runs from Banff, Alberta, to the Mexican border. These miles were not covered by a fleet or a field of professionals, (though there are many eBikes with a Bosch system used for deliveries and bike share). They were covered by commuters, parents hauling kids and groceries, mountain bikers, and riders returning to cycling after years away.
"These are real miles, ridden by real people, on ordinary days," said Jocelyn Vande Velde, NA Marketing Director at Bosch eBike Systems. "Many of them are on the trail: eMTB riders getting in one more climb, one more descent, staying out longer than they expected to. The rest are commutes, errands, and school runs. What the data tells us is that the bike has become both a way deeper into the mountains and a practical answer to trips that used to belong to something else. That is the outcome we have been engineering toward for more than a decade, and it is the reason we take the responsibility of building these systems as seriously as we do."
That rider mix maps onto a broader shift underway across the U.S. market. A recent PeopleForBikes analysis describes an eBike market moving from recreation toward everyday transportation, and from the enthusiast toward the everyday rider: families, commuters, and errand-runners who never thought of themselves as cyclists. Categories built for hauling, electric cargo bikes among them, are now some of the fastest-growing in the country. The same analysis found the market to be considerably larger than headline retail figures suggest. Once direct-to-consumer and peer-to-peer channels were counted, close to one million e-bikes were bought or sold in the United States in 2024, roughly double the size the conventional numbers had shown. Sales figures capture what riders buy; usage data like the eBike Flow figures captures what they do with the bikes afterward, and both point in the same direction.
The figures cover only eBikes running the Bosch smart system, and only riders who have opted in to sharing data through the eBike Flow app. The first of those bikes did not reach the U.S. market until 2023, which makes the total a picture of roughly three years of riding rather than a full accounting of eBike travel on Bosch systems. Given that previous versions of Bosch eBike systems were introduced in the US market starting in 2014, the cumulative mileage on Bosch-equipped eBikes is massive.
Earlier this year, Bosch offered a free software update via its eBike Flow app, the Performance upgrade 2.0, allowing users to increase the motor's performance values, with more torque and support, for select drive units of the smart system. This over-the-air update became available starting May 2026 for nine of Bosch's drive units, aimed at perfecting the natural riding experience by offering the ideal balance of performance, durability, and range. In addition to over-the-air updates with new features and system improvements, the Bosch smart system, through its app, provides a central hub to track activities and ride statistics. The app also offers digital theft protection, smartphone connectivity, customized riding modes, navigation by connecting directly to apps like Strava, komoot, Apple Watch and compatible Garmin devices for route, and health tracking.
Bosch eBike Systems works with more than 100 of the world's leading bicycle brands, supplying networked drive systems including motors, batteries, displays, and the eBike Flow app. The company's approach draws on Bosch's 139-year history in mobility, and on a conviction that the value of an eBike is measured in the trips it makes possible, and the memories along the way, rather than in any single specification.
Source: anonymized, aggregated usage data from opted-in Bosch eBike Systems smart system eBikes in the United States, as of July 2026. Distance comparisons are illustrative and calculated by Verde Brand Communications.
About Bosch
Having established a presence in North America in 1906, today the Bosch Group employs around 38,000 associates in more than 100 locations in the North American region (as of Dec. 31, 2025). In 2025, Bosch generated consolidated sales of $18.8 billion in the U.S., Mexico and Canada in 2025. For more information visit www.bosch.us, www.bosch.mx and www.bosch.ca.
The Bosch Group is a leading global supplier of technology and services. It employs roughly 413,000 associates worldwide (as of December 31, 2025). The company generated sales of 91 billion euros in 2025. Its operations are divided into four business sectors: Mobility, Industrial Technology, Consumer Goods, and Energy and Building Technology. With its business activities, the company aims to use technology to help shape universal trends such as automation, digitalization, electrification, and artificial intelligence. In this context, Bosch’s broad diversification across regions and industries strengthens its innovativeness and robustness. Bosch uses its proven expertise in hardware, software, and services to offer customers cross-domain solutions from a single source. It also applies its expertise in connectivity and artificial intelligence in order to develop and manufacture intelligent, user-friendly, and sustainable products. With technology that is “Invented for life,” Bosch wants to help improve quality of life and conserve natural resources. The Bosch Group comprises Robert Bosch GmbH and its roughly 500 subsidiary and regional companies in over 60 countries. Including sales and service partners, Bosch’s global manufacturing, engineering, and sales network covers nearly every country in the world. Bosch’s innovative strength is key to the company’s further development. Bosch employs some 82,000 associates in research and development.
The company was set up in Stuttgart in 1886 by Robert Bosch (1861-1942) as “Workshop for Precision Mechanics and Electrical Engineering.” The special ownership structure of Robert Bosch GmbH guarantees the entrepreneurial freedom of the Bosch Group, making it possible for the company to plan over the long term and to undertake significant upfront investments in the safeguarding of its future. Ninety-four percent of the share capital of Robert Bosch GmbH is held by Robert Bosch Stiftung GmbH, a limited liability company with a charitable purpose. The remaining shares are held by Robert Bosch GmbH and by a company owned by the Bosch family. The majority of voting rights are held by Robert Bosch Industrietreuhand KG. It is entrusted with the task of safeguarding the company’s long-term existence and in particular its financial independence – in line with the mission handed down in the will of the company’s founder, Robert Bosch.
Base build for only $800 more than frameset... yeesh. Gotta wonder how cheap those parts are.
Or how overpriced the frameset is
A Meta Power Avinox is $1700 more and I'd trust their qc a whole lot less.
Frame only pricing is a psyop to make building your own bike less appealing/practical so you suck it up and buy the full build
You're probably right, but there's no way the parts for a full build cost 800 fun tokens, so there's a disparity one way or another.
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?
At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for a bike and he had found a Santa Cruz, but he didn't like it because it has no ”vertical shock”. I laughed and explained to him that it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things for a shock to be ”vertical”. Now I see this on my favorite MTB site.
Is it a Pinkbike-ish ”wAtEr bOtTLe sPaCe iS sOmEtHiNG i LiVe aNd diE fOr”?
Thanks,
Mx
I think it’s just a reference to the fact that Ari has multiple suspension layouts with different aesthetics
Exactly this.
Two Fridays ago I saw a Fezzari crew pedaling up the American fork canyon road (alpine loop) at 6am with a bunch of camera gear. I thought they were all on the carbon Timp Peak, but I guess at least one of them was on this thing.
A lot of the cost difference on the frame set vs complete sport build is the Super Deluxe Ultimate vs the Suntour Edge shock. There's almost a $400 difference here. If the frameset shipped with the same shock as the Sport build, it would drop the price a good amount. The frameset being spec'd with the higher end shock because most people buying a frameset are looking for something a bit nicer.
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
I'm riding one of these bikes now, fantastic until the battery shits itself 40km from home lol
I figured out a reset of the battery fixes it, the arm of my riding glasses is the perfect tool to slide between my frame and battery and get the button. Been in the middle of nowhere makes you do Macguyver type shit.
Thank you for taking your time and explaining this, honestly!
Mx
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
What's funny is it's not like the fact that those batteries are removable is what makes them unreliable. I had the Sight VLT gen before yours with the fixed battery and it had battery connectivity issues too! For this reason I'm glad Bosch forces companies to use their electrical components/batteries only.
Sometime back Transition had their Deore CF Smuggler builds on sale, for LESS than the frame only option.
They were willing to pay you $300 to take the sh**ty parts off their hands. JK, Deore drivetrain in particular is very good, much better than GX.
They weren’t paying you, the frames just were/are marked up that much. I’d guess back then transition weren’t paying more than $1000 per frame w/ shock
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
Even more reason that motor mounts should be standardized and allow the consumer a motor only option for upgrading. Less waste more customization. Frame only and motor should be way more common. But I get it, that eats into companies profits.
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
I have a feeling it’s because the next generation of stuff that’s coming is too soon to make the money back on molds.
Crestline uses prototype molds. So he literally can’t make more than like 200 before they wear out IIRC
Yeah, I am not sure of the exact details and other possible differences, but my understanding is that prototype molds are made from aluminum and thus are much faster and easier to machine, whereas full production run molds are steel and are much more difficult, time consuming, and therefore costly to produce.
Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the forum! That seems like a well thought out and competitively priced bike!
I was just looking at the specs and FAQ on the Ari website and I see there is a high/low setting. Is that achieved through the use of different chips on the lower shock mount? I see the chips are flat on the bottom, so they can't simply be flipped 180 degrees.
Any idea on what these various builds will weigh, or if that info isn't available yet, what the frame will weigh?
I see it is mentioned in the FAQ that the battery can be removed without removing the motor. Any idea about how long this would take if one wanted to do it in the trailhead parking lot to extend ride time?
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum to lower cost but it would wear out super quick. Anything being done to bring down the cost of the longer term moulds the bike industry uses? Seems like the Chinese brands have made advances here with how they’re making cheap carbon that’s actually good. It’s been happening in road for a few years and now we’re seeing it in MTB with Amflow’s carbon bikes costing the same as everyone else’s aluminum ones.
I’m not sure that Amflow isn’t being propped up by the government to keep prices down. BYD does it with cars so I just assume everything tech out of China lately isn’t competing on the same terms as everyone else is (discounting the labor cost differences). Could be wrong, it’s not like e-bike money compares with electric car money.
Give the podcast that Jeff and Charlie did on DJI/ Amflow/ Avinox a listen... The DJI money is pretty damn big...
I like what Crestline is able to do and would consider buying one. $12K bikes + small company + few employees + less overhead = Small batch bikes and the ability to pivot as the market changes.
I would like to see who, on a global scale, thinks they need NEED all the software "calculations" on their bike?
Is the bike industry 2.0 really competing at the software level now? Suspension, components, geometry, etc. has all leveled off, so now it's software?
"Well my bike calculates X, and shows it here. Does yours?" is that really a selling point?
Do data and dashboards make my ride better? Are you taking suggestions? I'd like one that says I dabbed 5 times on that climb. Billy90210 did it five minutes ago and had no dabs. And adds: Ha sucker, do it again (That's a platinum level feature you have to subscribe to, monthly) See how I just monetized that?
Yay tech! (I work in tech so I can make fun of it)
interesting PR from Bosch citing data from their app. 62 million miles ridden by US ebikers on their platform over the last 3 years
------------------------
U.S. Riders cover an estimated 62 million miles on eBikes with a Bosch System
Insights from three years of eBike Flow app data
Foothill Ranch, Calif. (September 3, 2026)
Since the first eBikes equipped with the Bosch smart system reached riders in the United States, those riders have covered an estimated 62 million miles, according to anonymized, aggregated usage data from Bosch eBike Systems.
More than 52 million of those miles are measured directly, drawn from riders who have opted into the eBike Flow app through activity tracking and connected-bike odometer readings. Conservatively extrapolated across the full number of eBikes running the Bosch smart system in the U.S., the total comes to roughly 62 million miles.
Laid end to end, 62 million miles is close to 2,500 laps of the Earth at the equator, or about two-thirds of the distance from here to the sun. It is also a little more than 22,000 rides of the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route, the 2,745-mile ribbon of dirt that runs from Banff, Alberta, to the Mexican border. These miles were not covered by a fleet or a field of professionals, (though there are many eBikes with a Bosch system used for deliveries and bike share). They were covered by commuters, parents hauling kids and groceries, mountain bikers, and riders returning to cycling after years away.
"These are real miles, ridden by real people, on ordinary days," said Jocelyn Vande Velde, NA Marketing Director at Bosch eBike Systems. "Many of them are on the trail: eMTB riders getting in one more climb, one more descent, staying out longer than they expected to. The rest are commutes, errands, and school runs. What the data tells us is that the bike has become both a way deeper into the mountains and a practical answer to trips that used to belong to something else. That is the outcome we have been engineering toward for more than a decade, and it is the reason we take the responsibility of building these systems as seriously as we do."
That rider mix maps onto a broader shift underway across the U.S. market. A recent PeopleForBikes analysis describes an eBike market moving from recreation toward everyday transportation, and from the enthusiast toward the everyday rider: families, commuters, and errand-runners who never thought of themselves as cyclists. Categories built for hauling, electric cargo bikes among them, are now some of the fastest-growing in the country. The same analysis found the market to be considerably larger than headline retail figures suggest. Once direct-to-consumer and peer-to-peer channels were counted, close to one million e-bikes were bought or sold in the United States in 2024, roughly double the size the conventional numbers had shown. Sales figures capture what riders buy; usage data like the eBike Flow figures captures what they do with the bikes afterward, and both point in the same direction.
The figures cover only eBikes running the Bosch smart system, and only riders who have opted in to sharing data through the eBike Flow app. The first of those bikes did not reach the U.S. market until 2023, which makes the total a picture of roughly three years of riding rather than a full accounting of eBike travel on Bosch systems. Given that previous versions of Bosch eBike systems were introduced in the US market starting in 2014, the cumulative mileage on Bosch-equipped eBikes is massive.
Earlier this year, Bosch offered a free software update via its eBike Flow app, the Performance upgrade 2.0, allowing users to increase the motor's performance values, with more torque and support, for select drive units of the smart system. This over-the-air update became available starting May 2026 for nine of Bosch's drive units, aimed at perfecting the natural riding experience by offering the ideal balance of performance, durability, and range. In addition to over-the-air updates with new features and system improvements, the Bosch smart system, through its app, provides a central hub to track activities and ride statistics. The app also offers digital theft protection, smartphone connectivity, customized riding modes, navigation by connecting directly to apps like Strava, komoot, Apple Watch and compatible Garmin devices for route, and health tracking.
Bosch eBike Systems works with more than 100 of the world's leading bicycle brands, supplying networked drive systems including motors, batteries, displays, and the eBike Flow app. The company's approach draws on Bosch's 139-year history in mobility, and on a conviction that the value of an eBike is measured in the trips it makes possible, and the memories along the way, rather than in any single specification.
For more information about Bosch eBike Systems and its range of offerings, please visit https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/why-ride-bosch.
Source: anonymized, aggregated usage data from opted-in Bosch eBike Systems smart system eBikes in the United States, as of July 2026. Distance comparisons are illustrative and calculated by Verde Brand Communications.
About Bosch
Having established a presence in North America in 1906, today the Bosch Group employs around 38,000 associates in more than 100 locations in the North American region (as of Dec. 31, 2025). In 2025, Bosch generated consolidated sales of $18.8 billion in the U.S., Mexico and Canada in 2025. For more information visit www.bosch.us, www.bosch.mx and www.bosch.ca.
The Bosch Group is a leading global supplier of technology and services. It employs roughly 413,000 associates worldwide (as of December 31, 2025). The company generated sales of 91 billion euros in 2025. Its operations are divided into four business sectors: Mobility, Industrial Technology, Consumer Goods, and Energy and Building Technology. With its business activities, the company aims to use technology to help shape universal trends such as automation, digitalization, electrification, and artificial intelligence. In this context, Bosch’s broad diversification across regions and industries strengthens its innovativeness and robustness. Bosch uses its proven expertise in hardware, software, and services to offer customers cross-domain solutions from a single source. It also applies its expertise in connectivity and artificial intelligence in order to develop and manufacture intelligent, user-friendly, and sustainable products. With technology that is “Invented for life,” Bosch wants to help improve quality of life and conserve natural resources. The Bosch Group comprises Robert Bosch GmbH and its roughly 500 subsidiary and regional companies in over 60 countries. Including sales and service partners, Bosch’s global manufacturing, engineering, and sales network covers nearly every country in the world. Bosch’s innovative strength is key to the company’s further development. Bosch employs some 82,000 associates in research and development.
The company was set up in Stuttgart in 1886 by Robert Bosch (1861-1942) as “Workshop for Precision Mechanics and Electrical Engineering.” The special ownership structure of Robert Bosch GmbH guarantees the entrepreneurial freedom of the Bosch Group, making it possible for the company to plan over the long term and to undertake significant upfront investments in the safeguarding of its future. Ninety-four percent of the share capital of Robert Bosch GmbH is held by Robert Bosch Stiftung GmbH, a limited liability company with a charitable purpose. The remaining shares are held by Robert Bosch GmbH and by a company owned by the Bosch family. The majority of voting rights are held by Robert Bosch Industrietreuhand KG. It is entrusted with the task of safeguarding the company’s long-term existence and in particular its financial independence – in line with the mission handed down in the will of the company’s founder, Robert Bosch.
Additional information is available online at www.bosch-press.com, www.bosch.com.
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