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That’s an understatement
It would be tolerable if their backup was ok and they paid labour credits
the new trek Fuel+ with MX leverage and 205*65 shox give 162mm travel, with TQ 60 , I thinks that it 's the closest bike to your Relay
+1 for that. Nice that you can add almost any available shock as OE.
Whatever happened to the ZF motor system. I think it's the superior form factor
https://www.zf.com/products/en/micromobility/products_79051.html
ZF shelved it.
Hopefully TQ can up the power a bit and keep their form factor.
Real mtb people will figure out the tq60 power level is good. Non cyclist will need more
+100000000
I believe you, and I’m curious if any >200lb riders have tried the HPR60 and if has any of the overheating issues during climbing (especially in warm climates) that the HPR50 had for heavy riders? I’d definitely prefer something that feels more natural and is lighter weight, but I shied away from the HPR50 for my first ebike because I’m a chungus and ride in SoCal summers 🐖
Hard disagree. I use my e-bike to self shuttle up fire roads and down DH trails where the motor doesn't even kick on when I don't have time for a multi-hour epic on the pedal bike. In that context more power is in fact more better.
There just aren’t enough TQ bikes here (US). The Trek and Propain are close. Trek needs to bring back M/L sizing and pricing accounting for a post Avinox m2 world.
Amflow PX — if the weights are accurate — means you can detune to TQ levels, have almost the same SL weight but get that “sun is setting gotta turbo hustle back to the car” mode.
Indeed
The medium PX we have is 21.5kg without pedals (but still with tubes while is on display)
The resale value on these TQ bikes might be a total gamble if more and more Avinox bikes are releasing with similar weights & aesthetics.
I believe this is also applying to other full power systems as they're suddenly +- 1 generation behind solely on the packaging of their system.
I guess there will be more options soon, but right now you can buy a Mondraker Zendit RR for slightly less money than a Transition Regulator CX 90 that has less power, less battery & fatter downtube / motor area. The 2lbs weight penalty is not really a penalty at this point.
Fuel+ is 44lb, so that's a 6lb penalty.
Ya, there's way too much overlap between tq and avinox bikes in terms of weight. There should be 0 overlap, and it shouldn't even be close.
It seems it’s mostly just battery size affecting weigh. If the manufacturers just had more options on what battery you could use for what kind of riding you were doing. I’d love a 300wh battery that can be swapped for a 700wt battery on big days. I’d rather use the 43lb bike for my everyday rides. Only use a big battery if I have to .
That new Atherton with battery options and the round down tube with long travel, that’s my dream bike.
The new Amflow PX at 44lbs is a great representative to showcase how this system can enable manufacturers to compete with SL eMTBs even if using a full power system.
Druid Core Lite @ 45.9lbs is another contender, but there's not a lot of these 6-700wh Avinox bikes out there yet. I'm sure we'll see more of these lighter Avinox builds in the near future.
Rode the new pivot at a shop over the weekend. I have a g4 levo. The new dji stuff is insanely fast, its only usable on roads. Its like surron response just with pedals. I dont see how something with this much power doesn't create conflict.
I think the SL class will be redefined with motor systems like the Maxon & the TQ, hopefully the TQ being turned up a bit to a TQ75 and being the new 'SL's'. That will make them ride and behave distinctly differently than the Avinox, Levo & the soon the Bosch that is also getting a 20% torque bump in about 3 weeks.
It's correct to state that most of the weight difference of the motor systems is in the battery. But it doesn't make sense to have 1500w/ 130 nm unless you have a big honking battery to go along with it. So, you can still create some distinction in between SL & full power bikes because the SLs can make do with around a 550-600wh battery where-as the newest full powers should probably all be getting 900+ wh batteries considering their power output.
I could only find a claimed 44lb for the PX, but a real world 48lb?
And isn't the Druid Core Lite, just dressed in lightweight parts to keep the weight down?
Amflow removed the weights from the FAQ today. But PX Pro in L was 21.14 kg (21.4?) if memory serves. I always take listed weights with a grain of salt.
Packaging isn't a trivial problem to solve, the ultra slim pf700 battery gets the high energy density by using 4680 cells (46x80mm) to get the 36v they need in the pack you need to have all cells in series. This means to hit the density with the less capacity and weight you need to drop system voltage and therefore develop a new motor unit. The lower motor voltage isn't an issue as it all cancels with increased winding resistance in higher voltage motors to hit the torque constant.
Man, I want SL bikes to be a thing so badly, but the math just doesnt work out.
If you use the Mahle hub motor (ignoring any performance issues with having an extra 1.3kg of unsuspended weight) and you want over 300 watt hours of assistance, youre looking at 7ish pounds extra. A very light enduro build is 33 pounds. It looks like very light Avinox builds are reaching close to 45 pounds. Unless you dont have kids but are still old enough to complain about things, and you can afford to have a bunch of extra bikes, thats a hard sell. ~5 pound penalty to double the range AND have the option of cranking the assistance to Surron levels if you want? Sign me up.
My SL style ebike, 350ish max sustainable watts, was about 42 pounds with a 420wh battery. I upped it to a 700 wh battery, and now the total weight is 45 pounds .I can barely feel the differene. My DH bike back in the day was 44 pounds.
my ksl with nice parts was 21kg ish. another kg for the range extender to up the capacity to 480Wh. my next bike is the velduro with mostly the same parts, i will end about 1-1.5kg more, have tons of power and 320Wh more capacity. sl bikes don’t math anymore
There are some people (including me) who do not want full power tho. I just bought my first e-bike, and after trying the CX5 motor, it was clear to me that full power isn't remotely interesting to me. Where I tried the bike, after 1h of riding I had completed all the trails (6 laps), I wasn't motivated to keep on riding and didn't feel tired (except upper body hehe), and the bike felt like a tank while descending. Not super fun.
I'm on the TQ60 (edit: Sight VLT TQ, for those wondering) now and it seems like it the perpect compromise for me. 43-44lbs, natural feeling pedaling, super quiet, feels like normal bike when descending, 580wh battery so I can go for long rides. Maybe I'll change my mind in the future but right now the 42-44lbs SL ebikes are IT for me.
What TQ bike you on?
You're missing the point. For a two pound penalty you can have double the range. You can set your avinox to a low eco mode and have the same gentle assistance.
The first time you try and go on a ride with your full power ebike friends on your TQ you'll understand that it just makes so much more sense to have a bike that can do both
You must choose your (ride) friends well. Kinda joking, kinda not. Isn't this what we've been doing for ever? Self sorting into groups who like to pedal and descent in similar ways.
This will continue. I have an eeb, mostly due to injury but it's also fun top open up new options in weird ride routes. But I'm only interested in riding with people who want a hard workout and spicy descents. This doesn't change with owning the ebike. I might ride with low-effort friends a couple times a year, as a social thing, but regular rides need to leave me gassed. My gray matter requires it.
Categorizing full power ebike riders as "low effort" doesn't reflect reality. The best dh riders in my area ("retired" moto racers) go hard on the ups and downs. They absolutely charge, and want a 45-50 pound bike anyways for the dh. They also kill it on the climbs
It's always been true that for 'just a few pounds more' you could have a more capable bike, that often ends up being less fun in the real world.
Even though I just bought a full power, I quite like the SL category and where it's going.
Also the Amflow weights are sort of fantasy. The Avinox motors really never pedal that naturally from everyone I've spoken with. Yes, the reluctor ring provides great traction and a slow ramp up in power, but it still never feels that connected to the rider's input. Furthermore, once the builds are proper, they weigh > 50#s. You also have the issue that who is going to build an Avinox bike with a 580-600wh battery when the motor can do 1500wh/ 150nm? They need a minimum of 800 wh batteries. No one is going to build a lightweight Avinox bike with a smaller battery because the motor is just too hungry and it would not sell.
Since when did >5#s not matter in biking? That is enough to alter the experience. Especially if you are a smaller person.
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