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Were thicker. My Hope steel braided hoses are 5mm in diameter which is the industry standard for every other "normal" hose.
This is a T4V4 brake setup, and I just measured it with a caliper/vernier to be 100% sure.
EDIT:
HBSP172 - Standard Black Hose Ø5mm
HBSP157 - Braided Hose Ø5mm
Ah, thanks for clarifying that, it's been a few years since I tested them.
Disagree about the braided lines. Maybe placebo but I think they are firmer
I've see several first hand accounts of the silver calipers swapping directly for Shimano calipers. I have not done it personally, but I wouldn't worry about trying it. If I were to swap I would use the bronze calipers just because its easy to get a big roll of bulk hose and add the ends.
I'm very interested to feel these brakes but I'm so happy with the TRP's I'm currently running that I just can't bring myself to pull them off. I just really enjoy them.
I have swapped TRP calipers in place of Shimanos and not had a problem. I think alot of the banjo diameters are the same. I just wonder if the caliper comes with the banjo bolt.
RE: braided lines, I'm working with Maven Ultimates, so I'll need a version that deals with banjos unfortunately. I mean I guess I could buy a Bronze caliper but that adds quite a bit to the whole experiment. I'd consider trying some variation of a Kevlar line too, if someone else could point to a kit that was compatible with Maven banjos and was actually stiffer.
On the other hand, when I ran Dominions, I know they had a braided line that was actually slightly larger (to the point of being an issue on certain frames like gen 3 Levo), but it actually visibly flexed when I squeezed the lever.
if you think the Hope ones is a huge faff and they split open try to install the raw Goodridge on Trickstuff good luck
I finally wrapped up my XT vs. XT brake test, here for your viewing pleasure - https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/comparing-shimano-xt-brake-performance-m8100-vs-m8200
The TLDR:
- New brakes worked much more consistently. Never had any wandering bite point issues and the lever feel stayed solid in varying conditions. When I tested the new XTR brakes last year, I had a similar experience. I think the new oil/seals play a huge part in this, and the 'stiffer caliper' probably has some effect too. Don't @ me about
- New reach adjust dial is a pain to turn IMO. I like the grip of the old one and the ability to barely turn it and change the lever position. The new adjuster has preset detents.
- You can do the bleed with just hex wrenches now thanks to the new bleeding port. Not a huge deal, but I always misplace my 7mm wrench so saved me some time.
- The new lever pivot point/lever blade path: could not tell a difference (good or bad). I like the tiny lever feel of Shimano brakes, and you keep that with the new XTs. But all the marketing around the new ErgoFlow pivot location didn't amount to a difference in feel to me.
- The new finned pad design is quieter than the old ones. It's not absolute silent, and you still get some classic Shimano pad knock under heavy braking or rolling over really chattery sections. I did a day testing with new pads, old pads, velcro under the fins, flexing the pad spring out, and fin-less pads. The best setup was finless pads and flexed pad spring.
- Shimano says the new caliper is stiffer, and power transfer at the lever is more efficient, which = a bit more power. Riding back to back with the brakes, and one of each at the same time, I was struggling to say one felt more powerful. I did some testing with BrakeAce sensors, and those showed that I did brake for less time with the new brakes, and on average was riding faster. I also was able to generate some higher peak power out of the new rear brake. All of that to say—I'd say the new brakes are a touch more powerful, and I felt this most in the ability to modulate that power more precisely. They didn't feel so on-off like the old models.
I'll add that the new brakes still didn't give me the immediate stopping power of other brakes. I went back to Mavens last week and it was instant how much harder I could brake, and how much easier it was to generate that power. Not to say XTs don't work great for like 95% of trails I ride. I just think Shimano is holding out until that new Saint brake is released to compete power-wise with other brands.
You mention in the review that the new M8200 aren't as powerful as the TRP Evo Pros - how do they compare to the DHR-Evo 9non Pro)?
I'd say similar story—the DHR Evo's still offer more power readily available at your finger tips.
It's crazy to me that Shimano didn't update the XT and XTR with larger caliper pistons. They've really fallen behind the standard for braking power.
I'm pretty sure every other manufacturer offers more power at this point: maven, maven base, TRP DHR Evo/pro, Lewis LHP/LHT, Trickstuff, Hayes dominion, Hope, Magura, Intend, Radic.
I agree with you that XT is good enough for 95% of situations, but that other 5% is pretty important.
I just hope they release the new saint brakes this year with larger caliper pistons. Until then, Shaven is the move.
Nice review btw - always interesting to hear your thoughts.
Limiting power on a higher end 4 piston brake so that the DH brake can be even more powerful is such a stupid idea. Cheap/light/powerful, pick none of those things and buy some XTs... Now with added cable rattle and handlebar scuffing.
But it’s not really that fair to compare XT vs maven (or other big ones) anyway, XT is basically a trail brake and maven is full on gravity. Lets see what they are doing with that new Saint model when it comes, my guess is that pistons are bigger but not maven size.
Anyone run their hope brakes without the phenolic insert? Seems like they could have the potential to deform and be less uniform than just the steel pistons
Do you mean instead that you think the steel pistons will deform without the phenolic insert?
This was talked about on page 80 in this thread btw, and personally I believe that's nonsense. The pistons Trickstuff use look pretty much the same as Hope pistons, and you also need to understand they are all supported by the cylinder walls of the caliper.
I'm thinking of doing this myself actually as an experiment, but my season start around June so will be some time before I can say anything about it...
No I mean the phenolic inserts would deform, leading to inconsistencies. I understand they are there for temperature purposes but I’ll see how it goes without them
Deform because you remove them from the steel piston? I'm a bit confused, so it would be good if you tried to elaborate a little more why they should deform 🤔
Melting? They are hollow and could deform easier than the steel pistons for sure
What is the up side to taking the inserts out, wasn't clear on this the last time it was discussed. Is it just because, or is there a functional reason for wanting to try it?
I seriously don't understand what you're talking about.
First you asked if anyone had run their hope brakes without the phenolic insert. Then you seem to think they will deform, and I still don't know if you think they will deform by separating them from the steel pistons or in regular use or I dunno. Also why would any of it matter if you just want to know if someone has run their brakes without them?
There are brakes on the market using hollow steel pistons without any phenolic inserts, so I just don't understand what exactly you're hypotesis is yet.
Here's what is written on the Trickstuff Maxima page about the subject:
HOLLOW STAINLESS STEEL PISTONS
"The light and hollow stainless steel pistons in the brake caliper make a considerable contribution to the heat management of the brakes. The hollow cylinder design reduces the contact surface between the brake pads and pistons to a minimum, while the stainless steel itself has low thermal conductivity, significantly reducing heat transfer into the brake caliper. In addition to stainless steel, air also has low thermal conductivity. The air cushion created in the hollow cylinder therefore also makes a positive contribution to heat management."
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And here's how they look like:
And here's how the Hope V4 pistons and inserts look like:
No worry on the phenolics melting/deforming under pressure and heat. This is one of the exact reasons they're used on brakes, they have a high degree of temp stability.
Yes I know all that.
Better than steel?
The signature Hope squeal existed on the tech3 brakes as well, correct? If so, and given these brakes used strictly phenolic pistons, with a similar design to the inserts on the tech4 brakes, it seems possible that they are the common denominator causing the squealing. Now what the compounding factors could be that cause that in these brakes is beyond my knowledge base.
Will the Hopes work without the inserts? Probably. Given that the TS maxima’s use the same pad shape and no inserts in their SS hollow pistons. Do the inserts improve heat resistance? Probably. But I’d say a good majority of riders are out here regularly fading these brakes, so that’s just something that would need to be tested individually. I’m planning on doing some messing around with brakes these year (have some HEL Advocates on route, and might swap calipers and levers with the Hopes for fun), so might give it a try myself, as in the summer the squeal makes POV video content hard to watch/listen to.
Its worth noting the HEL Advocates also use hollow SS pistons, but with more wall thickness. Although, the pistons are castellated which they note improves heat dissipations (allowing air to move from the centre of the pistons or less contact area with the pads?)
There's an idea for boutique brake manufacturers. Ducted ventilation for the back of the pads.
Radic has near identical pistons with no insert. Trick stuff as well. If there’s flex with the phenolic insert, might get crisper action without
You're asking the wrong questions, bub. If you ever got your brakes hot enough to cause plastic deformation to a metal or phenolic piston you'd have a helluvalotta bigger issues to contend with WELL prior to that event.
The only reason I could conceive of noise issues caused by the phenolic inserts is if they're moving around in their pockets. I'll paraphrase what I said back on page 80. Can you run em without? Maybe. Should you? Probably not.
Water cooling!
Wait this is a real thing!
FWIW, regarding phenolic inserts deforming, Code pistons FOR SURE deform under use. Over time they get these bumps corresponding to the holes in the pad backplate which makes it impossible to bleed the brakes unless you file off the bumps. Or replace pistons.
case and point.
Post a reply to: Nerding out on Brakes shall we? Not another tech deraliment