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I was just wondering why specialized can continue to run a prototype for so long, the rules are pretty clear that equipment must be able to be sold to consumers and while there’s an application process to run prototypes it seems like they are abusing this.
What happens if the uci denies them using a prototype, do they go back to the 5 year old bike?
Doesn’t seem like any other teams run a development cycle nearly this long during actual races.
My guess is they make enough little changes to the bike to label it a new model and restart the process.
Yes but it’s an application process. Do they ever get denied? Why doesn’t every team do this then, why waste money on new molds or manufacturing when you can just keep running a prototype and sell the old bike.
If the UCI played hardball like that with the manufacturers, the OEMs would just pack up their stuff and go home. Downhill is mainly a marketing exercise for companies who participate. Very few companies are selling enough DH bikes to justify the money they spend in WC Downhill. They're hoping that their presence/results there will make you feel more confident in the performance of the rest of the bikes they produce and sell.
That’s kind of what I figured. I wonder if all the teams will end up going that route.
The UCI would probably step in if other teams protested a certain bike, but I would assume that the larger teams have some sort of "gentlemens agreement" to prevent excessive technical scrutiny.
There's definitely a balance between testing out new prototypes, and keeping your design language consistent through your product line. Testing a new prototype for so long probably hurts sales of the "old" design.
I think you are also missing the point that while prototype bikes might not reach the full fruition as we can see them tested on the circuit, they can still heavily influence any other products of the company. We are pretty lucky to have WC DH as a test field...
There is no prototype rule for mountain bike disciplines. There is also no application process. Put whatever you want on the bike, basically.
The surprising thing to me is that there is no frameset rule for mountain biking, either. I would have expected that the front triangle be required to come from a production bike, but, no. Use whatever you want 😄
I definitely think they are sick, was just wondering why specialized is the only team going the fully prototype route.
There was a Santra Cruz video years ago at the release of the 27.5 or 29 where Rob Roskopp said something regarding the timeline for prototype-to-production. Haven't been able to find it, but it was something like 18 or 20 months to production. I wonder if that part of the video got edited out because I'm sure I'm not making it up... It would be nice to know what the specifics are regarding protoypes. How much must a frame change to be called the next version? Does the clock restart when you reach the minimum amount of change? Can geometry changes reset the clock?
Specialized, Yeti, Norco, and... Mondraker(?) have all been on prototypes since the spring of 2023, so it's not exactly favoritism towards Specialized.
Yeti is the easiest one to give an exemption as they haven't been racing World Cups with the bike till this year, so who knows when their "clock" started. Ironically, they committed to carbon pretty quickly, but you don't have to make expensive metal molds for prototypes. Those have been pretty polished triangles from the beginning, though.
You could argue that Norco is pushing the limits of the "prototype" rule more than Specialized, as their bike at least visually has the least noticeable change. How many tweaks does it take to get a fresh clock?
Mondraker released the latest Summum quietly, and the team is rolling out their latest prototype, so it seems like they're respecting the "prototype" rule the most of any team by getting it into production while they continue their development. The previous Summum was released alloy first, then carbon, but unlike the current bike, there was an actual press release.
I'd argue that Specialized is playing by the rules, as the latest bike has changed enough to qualify as a new bike. Geo, kinematic changes like everyone else, but the curveball is the new take on the drivetrain, which is a bigger change than anyone else has made.
This was far more exciting to think about than doing my actual work.
Does just firing up a new prototype count as resetting the clock even though you my were running a Prototype before? I heard on the chairlift from a guy who apparently knows a guy that Norco is dropping their bike pretty soon because of the prototype rules. Makes me wonder why companies like canyon don’t even really race the prototype until it’s pretty much ready to drop where other companies run it the whole time in the World Cup.
There's no prototype rule in MTB. There's no resetting of the clock, the teams are free to run whatever they like
Running a true prototype can be risky, that's why most teams don't use them. Pivot was racing with prototype bikes while developing their new Phoenix frame and they definitely found this out the hard way.
Remember the era where a bunch of the teams ran re-painted versions of other companies frames (most famously the Intense M1), prototypes are tame compared to that.
norco? atherton?
Which is a good thing. Without it we get stories like Isaac Leivsson racing on a bike he built himself.
I think it hurts their sales. Don't see many demos out in the wild. But lots of stumpys .. so maybe that's the point ☝️
It would be cool if there were 'homologation' frames- such that after a prototype grace period ends, Mondraker, Specialized, Norco could all release 10 frames. Unpolished products built for unapologetic speed, at unobtanium prices. SR Suntour did it with Pidcock's electronic suspension for 5k per set.
The AMA rule regarding not being able to race unless you offer a production version I'd love to see in more detail.
Adam Carolli racing a stock production Ducati rather than a one off works model is kind of wild.
Anyone remember the Deegan debacle at Loretta Lynn's? His dad was a total cheat when he won his only SX race. So rumors of Star Racing having a ridiculous amount of money in Danger Boy's bike stirred rumours.
Kid used the amateur rule to blow his own career up by forcing the purchase of Deegan's bike on the spot. Resulted in dick head daddy Brian Deegan pulling the poor teenager into a private intimidation conversation & all sorts of stuff.
The prototype rules of Loretta Lynn's would be an awesome UCI rule for National Championships. it WOULD level the playing field for one day Natty's in DownHill racing. OR.....Bruni, Jordan & Finn wouldn't bother racing Nationals. Which in turn, would be a nice open door for a guy to make a name for himself.
Like they are going to deny the team of the biggest cheerleader for all the chances they have been wanting to make.
Idk, I saw plenty of Demos at the Monster Pro this weekend and in Whistler earlier this year. Outside or racing or certain bike parks I don't see DH bikes from anyone in the wild much.
Bryceland on that "new" Cannondale at Hardline
. Like another poster said, it's mostly marketing. Neither Yeti, nor Cannondale is going to be selling a DH bike any time soon. Enduro bikes are all that's needed for average rider speed at most bike parks, and most manufacturers are chasing ebike sales anyway.
Plenty of Demos at Windrock. But not so-many at Wild Side. The issue is how many people can actually ride a DH bike for what it's intended--and if an enduro rig isn't a better choice for most people, at most bike parks. IMO.
shouldn't the forum end here?
There’s plenty on Demos in the wild. Maybe they aren’t selling well now because the platform is 4 years old without revisions and many other frames out that are better.
These companies don’t “owe” us anything by having to put these for sale. As mentioned earlier, a lot of times something from these race test bikes go into an enduro bike or they are just concepts to be proven, like Honda gearbox or Cannondale dual shock because the Jekyll.
If you like tech stuff we don’t want this rule to change, they have tried this in motorcycle road racing and OeMs left and racing got stale. MotoGP, MXGP and F1 can all run anything they want within the rules that we can’t buy. To me that makes it exciting to see what they will cook up!
I could care less about the deegan drama but I love that rule. Discentivizes financial advantages without having to have a ton of regulation, fine print, and the he subsequent officiating to make sure people are following them. Here if your bike is too fast your competition has the chance to buy it straight from you.
Wait what, hadn't heard of the Deegan Loretta story. Did they find anything about his bike? Or did the kid not end up buying his bike after the one on one with Brian?
They bullied the kid long enough to get their factory bike out of there and disassemble it, from what I remember.
claim races are a solid method of evening out the playing field, provided you have people who respect the rules.
Oh it was horrendous for the kid. So, he worked a JOB. Saved all his money up. Drooled over the Star Racing bike & just wanted to buy it outright b/c of the rule & he felt like it would make a difference in his own racing. Kid's got his own pro mechanic & both geek and wanted to race it and tear it down to see what it was like.
Kid filed his claim correctly, Deegan somehow gets the kid alone in a team truck, pushing him that he doesn't want to do this, it'll ruin him. Muddying the kids name because he posts his videos on YouTube & that's why is for clicks. Even though the Deegan's YouTube is monstrous & they do anything they can to get more clicks, so it was hypocrisy.
Then they tried to somehow get the bike out of there to get the engine out of it and swap some random ass engine in it before giving it to the kid.
In the end, the kid got bullied & pressured by everyone. Deegans even got his bike/parts/shop affiliates on the phone to threaten to drop the kid if he didn't drop the claim.
In the end, Deegans & Star flipped everything on the kid, shut him down, got him to drop the claim & ruined the kids reputation.
Everyone knew Star brought a factory bike to Lorettas. Someone finally called them out on it. They railroaded a teenager.
Never trust a Deegan.
Never think you're winning Lorettas b/c the factories will run you over, no matter what the fake ass rule is in place to protect the little guy.
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