The Bikeconomics (Mega)Thread

7/24/2025 9:39am
just as a side note about holden, Holden got bailed out in Australia - which wasnt helped by The damn Union they had, They wanted their...

just as a side note about holden, Holden got bailed out in Australia - which wasnt helped by The damn Union they had, They wanted their almost no skill assembly jobs paying higher than most other jobs in Australia.
Unions in Aus and NZ are serious poison to any company and it's workers, especially the MWU. 
I've been apart of several as a worker and man they just hold union meetings to suck as much money from a company as possible without any care to their members actual job retention.(there is kids straight out of school with no skills earning atleast $40p/h.)

Not sure how well unions work elsewhere but here and Australia they are awful Groups(they are essentially their own business)

Without unions we wouldn't have the weekend. Don't know why kids earning good wages out of school would ever be a bad thing. I'm sure if there were better union protections for workers in the MTB industry, we'd see a lot of brands still kicking.

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dolface
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7/24/2025 9:41am

Bike Rumor reporting Intense exiting UK and EU markets "citing ongoing economic challenges in the global cycling industry."

Somehow incredibly not surprising. 

Confirmed on PB too...

3
7/24/2025 11:43am
Without unions we wouldn't have the weekend. Don't know why kids earning good wages out of school would ever be a bad thing. I'm sure if...

Without unions we wouldn't have the weekend. Don't know why kids earning good wages out of school would ever be a bad thing. I'm sure if there were better union protections for workers in the MTB industry, we'd see a lot of brands still kicking.

But they only did 12 years of school and it was the free kind! They deserve nothing!

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10
7/24/2025 1:13pm

Bike Rumor reporting Intense exiting UK and EU markets "citing ongoing economic challenges in the global cycling industry."

Somehow incredibly not surprising. 

Here's the full statement from the Intense EU website: 

https://eu.intensecycles.com/

DEAR INTENSE RIDERS & FRIENDS

First and foremost, we want to thank you for being a valued part of the INTENSE family here in Europe. Your passion for riding and support of our brand has meant the world to us. As the global cycling industry faces continued economic challenges, we’ve had to make some difficult decisions to ensure the long-term strength and future of INTENSE Cycles. We want to share an important update about how this affects our operations in Europe.

What’s Changing

Effective immediately, INTENSE Cycles will be pausing all online sales and distribution operations in Europe. This means we will no longer be selling bikes for the time being. This decision wasn’t made lightly, it’s part of a broader strategy to focus our resources and stabilize our core business in North America.
 
Continued Support for You

While retail operations related with bikes are paused, our commitment to supporting you as an INTENSE rider remains unchanged:

Warranty services and spare parts will continue to be available and shipped directly from our U.S. warehouse, just as we’ve done over the past several years.

Our global support team is here to help you with any questions or service needs through our website or customer service email.

This change marks a temporary shift in how we operate in Europe, but it’s not goodbye. Our goal is to return to global markets, including Europe, stronger and better positioned to serve riders like you.

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LePigPen
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7/24/2025 1:33pm

(at least they didn't run a half off flash sale and then enter administration after taking as many orders as possible) 

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Jotegr
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7/24/2025 3:43pm Edited Date/Time 7/24/2025 3:45pm

To serve riders like me? I'm a rider like me!

 

Hard to get too down on Intense right now. I obviously don't have any information in front of me that would indicate their costs of operating in Europe versus revenues, and further, with the unknown tariff and general market instability caused by unknown and seemingly random shocks, it's probably wise to focus on their domestic market rather than one that I would guess has comparably minor market significance to them. 

 

Plus, you know, Intense has never been shy about being the MURICA brand and wearing that heart on their sleeves, so regardless of any of Intense's own political leanings, I'd be willing to bet lots of Europeans don't want to be caught riding a bike with that sort of perception and heritage at the moment - I would guess this has cost them sales.  

 

Add that to the general bike climate? Gotta hurt. 

 

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1
7/24/2025 3:51pm

Is union discussions really a side quest? We are talking about the short term (and long term I guess) economic health of the industry, and basic economics matters. 

A Union is a cartel. Thats the literal definition, and it has all the benefits and pitfalls of a cartel. It increases bargaining power in an economic transaction, but it also reduces choice, efficiency, and raises prices. Of course its much more complex than that, and anyone who says it "gave us the weekend" or "destroys companies" is ignoring nuance, complexity, and reality. 

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jeff.brines
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7/24/2025 3:59pm Edited Date/Time 7/24/2025 3:59pm

New post up on the whole YT situation. Thanks to a sleuth-y VitalMTB member, financials were found (up until 2022). Huge shoutout...but I want to make sure he wants the shoutout first!

Substack 

My Blog

My Super Ugly Windows 98 Themed Blog (reader beware)

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jeff.brines
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7/24/2025 4:00pm Edited Date/Time 7/24/2025 10:25pm
Is union discussions really a side quest? We are talking about the short term (and long term I guess) economic health of the industry, and basic...

Is union discussions really a side quest? We are talking about the short term (and long term I guess) economic health of the industry, and basic economics matters. 

A Union is a cartel. Thats the literal definition, and it has all the benefits and pitfalls of a cartel. It increases bargaining power in an economic transaction, but it also reduces choice, efficiency, and raises prices. Of course its much more complex than that, and anyone who says it "gave us the weekend" or "destroys companies" is ignoring nuance, complexity, and reality. 

Yes, it is a side quest. I encourage you to start your own thread on this one. I'll happily contribute, but its way too far off the beaten path for us to get into...here. 

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TEAMROBOT
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7/24/2025 4:03pm
Is union discussions really a side quest? We are talking about the short term (and long term I guess) economic health of the industry, and basic...

Is union discussions really a side quest? We are talking about the short term (and long term I guess) economic health of the industry, and basic economics matters. 

A Union is a cartel. Thats the literal definition, and it has all the benefits and pitfalls of a cartel. It increases bargaining power in an economic transaction, but it also reduces choice, efficiency, and raises prices. Of course its much more complex than that, and anyone who says it "gave us the weekend" or "destroys companies" is ignoring nuance, complexity, and reality. 

Don’t know a lot about labor politics outside the U.S., but respectfully, labor unions really can take credit for getting US workers the 40 hour work week and the weekend. Labor unions did that, and it took about 60 years of organizing before FDR signed the Fair Labor Standards Act into law in 1938: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/sep/09/viral-image/does-8-ho…

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3
7/24/2025 4:17pm
Is union discussions really a side quest? We are talking about the short term (and long term I guess) economic health of the industry, and basic...

Is union discussions really a side quest? We are talking about the short term (and long term I guess) economic health of the industry, and basic economics matters. 

A Union is a cartel. Thats the literal definition, and it has all the benefits and pitfalls of a cartel. It increases bargaining power in an economic transaction, but it also reduces choice, efficiency, and raises prices. Of course its much more complex than that, and anyone who says it "gave us the weekend" or "destroys companies" is ignoring nuance, complexity, and reality. 

A union adds democratic structure to a corporation. The workers use their bargaining power as leverage to negotiate their working conditions. You vote for your union reps like you would for representatives in government/council. Plenty of countries have gone insolvent due to the decisions of an autocratic leader, just like plenty of companies have gone downhill due to the decisions of a bad CFO. Bike companies are not an exception. 

The fact is, having the responsibility of an entire company in the hands of unaccountable CFOs or board members is a lot worse for stability than the responsibility being shared by the workers of the company. It gets worse when private equity gets involved, because now the CFO is only accountable to an unfeeling, unfamiliar corporate machine that only ever demands improvement, something that is antithetical to an organic industry like mountain biking that ebbs and flows in popularity.

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jeff.brines
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7/24/2025 4:23pm
Is union discussions really a side quest? We are talking about the short term (and long term I guess) economic health of the industry, and basic...

Is union discussions really a side quest? We are talking about the short term (and long term I guess) economic health of the industry, and basic economics matters. 

A Union is a cartel. Thats the literal definition, and it has all the benefits and pitfalls of a cartel. It increases bargaining power in an economic transaction, but it also reduces choice, efficiency, and raises prices. Of course its much more complex than that, and anyone who says it "gave us the weekend" or "destroys companies" is ignoring nuance, complexity, and reality. 

A union adds democratic structure to a corporation. The workers use their bargaining power as leverage to negotiate their working conditions. You vote for your union...

A union adds democratic structure to a corporation. The workers use their bargaining power as leverage to negotiate their working conditions. You vote for your union reps like you would for representatives in government/council. Plenty of countries have gone insolvent due to the decisions of an autocratic leader, just like plenty of companies have gone downhill due to the decisions of a bad CFO. Bike companies are not an exception. 

The fact is, having the responsibility of an entire company in the hands of unaccountable CFOs or board members is a lot worse for stability than the responsibility being shared by the workers of the company. It gets worse when private equity gets involved, because now the CFO is only accountable to an unfeeling, unfamiliar corporate machine that only ever demands improvement, something that is antithetical to an organic industry like mountain biking that ebbs and flows in popularity.

I'm getting really close to locking this thread. 

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3
7/24/2025 4:33pm

Haven't Intense US been struggling for a while too? They've been in a bit of a backwards slide for quite a while, their design and philosophy just feel outdated to me

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1
7/24/2025 4:37pm

I'm getting really close to locking this thread. 

You heard the man, you’ve been warned kids.

Great write up Jeff. Kudos to whoever found the financials.

Now can someone dig up the pitch deck that the PE guys saw?

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Mwood
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7/24/2025 5:22pm
New post up on the whole YT situation. Thanks to a sleuth-y VitalMTB member, financials were found (up until 2022). Huge shoutout...but I want to make...

New post up on the whole YT situation. Thanks to a sleuth-y VitalMTB member, financials were found (up until 2022). Huge shoutout...but I want to make sure he wants the shoutout first!

Substack 

My Blog

My Super Ugly Windows 98 Themed Blog (reader beware)

Jeff, I really liked this write up and felt it had the right level of depth + data(we need more leaks from big bike companies btw). I like your short quips and added insight to this forum, but this write up really takes the cake for showing what you know vs the average mtb'er. Thanks for taking the time to do the write up and stay sassy. 

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ShapeThings
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7/24/2025 7:45pm
Haven't Intense US been struggling for a while too? They've been in a bit of a backwards slide for quite a while, their design and philosophy...

Haven't Intense US been struggling for a while too? They've been in a bit of a backwards slide for quite a while, their design and philosophy just feel outdated to me

Would agree with that. I rarely see them in my region (NorCal). As much as many people may not want to admit it, aesthetics/branding/marketing play a huge role. Once your brand loses its luster, it’s a difficult slide to arrest. 

6
1
7/24/2025 7:47pm

World Cup racing is gonna go to shit if we lose a bunch of teams like YT, Intense or others. 

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LePigPen
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7/24/2025 8:19pm

(Max Commencal looking at all the other companies fold and all those tasty racers full of points free up and have no other options but to sign dirt cheap contracts) 😋🤤🧐

(although I know they kinda streamlined the whole having a 100 riders and teams thing recently)

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metadave
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7/25/2025 12:30am
LePigPen wrote:
(Max Commencal looking at all the other companies fold and all those tasty racers full of points free up and have no other options but to...

(Max Commencal looking at all the other companies fold and all those tasty racers full of points free up and have no other options but to sign dirt cheap contracts) 😋🤤🧐

(although I know they kinda streamlined the whole having a 100 riders and teams thing recently)

The years is 2043.... All work cup racers are either on Commencal, Santa Cruz or Frameworks, with Bruni still racing a single Specialized, the 87th iteration of "The Proto"

I've always had a soft spot for Intense. An M1 was the first real DH bike I ever laid eyes on and I had an old Tazer FSR as a trail bike at one point when I was a kid. The 2017ish Tracer is still one of my favorite bikes I've owned as well. I do feel like they were back and forth the last few years with getting their mojo back. First with Jack and Dean, then with Dak and now again with their belt drive bikes and very interesting team.

I'll also never forget Matti's M9 tomahawking into a tree and blowing the tire out in I think one of Earthed movies. Brilliant. 

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7/25/2025 5:09am
Haven't Intense US been struggling for a while too? They've been in a bit of a backwards slide for quite a while, their design and philosophy...

Haven't Intense US been struggling for a while too? They've been in a bit of a backwards slide for quite a while, their design and philosophy just feel outdated to me

Go look at the new Spider! Best looking bike out rn other than the Rallon. Gearboxes in the world cups too. Their design does not feel outdated to me.

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amaranth
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7/25/2025 5:10am

Can we get some insight on how intense happened? From what is literally the hottest bike (the old M1) to now. Have a soft spot for them, thought about buying the new M1, but this feels like decades of bad decisions leading to this point. 

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iRider
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7/25/2025 6:13am

I wrote a lengthy post on another forum back in the day when they gave up all their US production and predicted that would get them in trouble. Previously the arguments for them were short turnaround times because of in-house production (early production 29ers, 27.5ers), constant evolution of "same model year" frames (small modifications between batches when they found a better solution, e.g. additional/differently placed cable stops), and made in the US. They had a unique selling point in "made in the US" that they gave away because of the wish to grow and go carbon. Now they have to compete with every other bike manufacturer on the same parameters, and smaller companies do not have the financial resources to do so unless you can offer something else that is unique. Previously the answer to "why should I buy an Intense over a Santa Cruz" was "made in the US". Some people are always willing to pay the premium for that, but you cannot grow your business as much that way. Another issue was their stop to offer a "frame only" option as many Intense owners wanted to build their dream bikes from scratch and not want to be stuck with a bunch of components doing so when buying a complete to harvest the frame.

I rather would have seen them stay with US production for their aluminum frames, offer a "custom by Jeff" option besides the production models where you could get a special geometry or similar for a premium (Nicolai comes to mind), and cater for the privateer downhill and enduro racers with great support and well developed chassis (Frameworks comes to mind). While this would not make big bucks, it would have been a sustainable business model.

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HexonJuan
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7/25/2025 6:21am

I think Intense is mostly a victim of their own hubris. There is no doubt they've been a huge influence in the market, especially in decades past, but that has waned considerably. I think they began losing luster once Sapa/Anodizing Inc shuttered frame building ops in OR, as then they went Asian carbon manufacturing. That didn't jibe well with many of the fans of the brand. Then you have them pulling out of the LBS's, and I remember being in SoCal and amazed at the number of shops that carried them prior to that. Talk about a kick to the willy for those dealers. Then the 951 deal with Costco, which at first offered a bit of a good deal on the bikes, but as we are here, now the bikes are dated and overpriced compared to the rest of the market. Then you have the new bike from frame up deal in conjunction with QBP. I don't think that's turning into the homerun they were planning for, but again my market is definitely not Intense territory. We can also look at how they handled warranties in years past, which was questionable at times, and left a bad taste in some buyers' mouths. The old upset customer tells many, the happy one few scenario. 

Couple the above with the number of brands in the market now and the glut of inventory waiting to be sold by the same and you have a perfect storm for contraction.

7
jeff.brines
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7/25/2025 7:12am
New post up on the whole YT situation. Thanks to a sleuth-y VitalMTB member, financials were found (up until 2022). Huge shoutout...but I want to make...

New post up on the whole YT situation. Thanks to a sleuth-y VitalMTB member, financials were found (up until 2022). Huge shoutout...but I want to make sure he wants the shoutout first!

Substack 

My Blog

My Super Ugly Windows 98 Themed Blog (reader beware)

Mwood wrote:
Jeff, I really liked this write up and felt it had the right level of depth + data(we need more leaks from big bike companies btw)...

Jeff, I really liked this write up and felt it had the right level of depth + data(we need more leaks from big bike companies btw). I like your short quips and added insight to this forum, but this write up really takes the cake for showing what you know vs the average mtb'er. Thanks for taking the time to do the write up and stay sassy. 

Thanks. Apologies to how badly that post needed an editor prior to posting. If you suffered through the reading of it, I appreciate it. I'll do better pausing before posting next go! 

Those asking about Intense, it'd be a worthwhile deep dive to try and detail their history. Honestly, that'd probalby require talking to employees and even Jeff himself. I have dreams of doing "Acquired" style podcasts about these companies, being there is a lot of cool history and story behind all of them. I think they still have a great shot but will have to buckle down. Their bikes are good, brand still holds some legitimate equity, but they feel rudderless to me. Part of me fears the brand could be picked up by a bigger company IE Lemond bought by Trek in the 90s. 

 

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iRider
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7/25/2025 7:43am
HexonJuan wrote:
I think Intense is mostly a victim of their own hubris. There is no doubt they've been a huge influence in the market, especially in decades...

I think Intense is mostly a victim of their own hubris. There is no doubt they've been a huge influence in the market, especially in decades past, but that has waned considerably. I think they began losing luster once Sapa/Anodizing Inc shuttered frame building ops in OR, as then they went Asian carbon manufacturing. That didn't jibe well with many of the fans of the brand. Then you have them pulling out of the LBS's, and I remember being in SoCal and amazed at the number of shops that carried them prior to that. Talk about a kick to the willy for those dealers. Then the 951 deal with Costco, which at first offered a bit of a good deal on the bikes, but as we are here, now the bikes are dated and overpriced compared to the rest of the market. Then you have the new bike from frame up deal in conjunction with QBP. I don't think that's turning into the homerun they were planning for, but again my market is definitely not Intense territory. We can also look at how they handled warranties in years past, which was questionable at times, and left a bad taste in some buyers' mouths. The old upset customer tells many, the happy one few scenario. 

Couple the above with the number of brands in the market now and the glut of inventory waiting to be sold by the same and you have a perfect storm for contraction.

Intense never used SAPA in Portland, OR. They had their own, in-house production line in CA. AFAIK did Santa Cruz and Turner use SAPA for a while.

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iRider
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7/25/2025 7:44am
Thanks. Apologies to how badly that post needed an editor prior to posting. If you suffered through the reading of it, I appreciate it. I'll do...

Thanks. Apologies to how badly that post needed an editor prior to posting. If you suffered through the reading of it, I appreciate it. I'll do better pausing before posting next go! 

Those asking about Intense, it'd be a worthwhile deep dive to try and detail their history. Honestly, that'd probalby require talking to employees and even Jeff himself. I have dreams of doing "Acquired" style podcasts about these companies, being there is a lot of cool history and story behind all of them. I think they still have a great shot but will have to buckle down. Their bikes are good, brand still holds some legitimate equity, but they feel rudderless to me. Part of me fears the brand could be picked up by a bigger company IE Lemond bought by Trek in the 90s. 

 

Intense had an investment from the "moto community" in 2019.

https://exhaust.racerxonline.com/2019/01/24/intense-cycles-usa-gets-int…

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metadave
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7/25/2025 8:11am
HexonJuan wrote:
I think Intense is mostly a victim of their own hubris. There is no doubt they've been a huge influence in the market, especially in decades...

I think Intense is mostly a victim of their own hubris. There is no doubt they've been a huge influence in the market, especially in decades past, but that has waned considerably. I think they began losing luster once Sapa/Anodizing Inc shuttered frame building ops in OR, as then they went Asian carbon manufacturing. That didn't jibe well with many of the fans of the brand. Then you have them pulling out of the LBS's, and I remember being in SoCal and amazed at the number of shops that carried them prior to that. Talk about a kick to the willy for those dealers. Then the 951 deal with Costco, which at first offered a bit of a good deal on the bikes, but as we are here, now the bikes are dated and overpriced compared to the rest of the market. Then you have the new bike from frame up deal in conjunction with QBP. I don't think that's turning into the homerun they were planning for, but again my market is definitely not Intense territory. We can also look at how they handled warranties in years past, which was questionable at times, and left a bad taste in some buyers' mouths. The old upset customer tells many, the happy one few scenario. 

Couple the above with the number of brands in the market now and the glut of inventory waiting to be sold by the same and you have a perfect storm for contraction.

iRider wrote:
Intense never used SAPA in Portland, OR. They had their own, in-house production line in CA. AFAIK did Santa Cruz and Turner use SAPA for a...

Intense never used SAPA in Portland, OR. They had their own, in-house production line in CA. AFAIK did Santa Cruz and Turner use SAPA for a while.

I do remember reading somewhere that it became impossible for Intense to afford the cost in California to run the build shop because of environmental licensing (I'm not familiar with it so this may be wrong) or something because alloy frame became less profitable when everything went carbon or bust in the mid 2010's, so they pushed out to Asia for both carbon and alloy, with the 2017ish Spider being the first asia produced alloy frame. They ended up selling off all the build equipment because of that as it was not going to be able to be used. 

I may be very wrong about this, again just read it somewhere. 

On top of that, in Canada at least, they had a terrible distributor, which kept the locks on the doors with Intense and stopped them from becoming a bigger player as they would only let shops of a certain size carry intense, even in smaller markets. Then when they broke with OGC, they went direct and while still being open to other shops, MEC picked them up which put off other shops. MEC carried them online and in stores. I worked for MEC at the time and they sold thousands of Intense's between their larger stores and distribution centers between 2016 and 2020. Then they swapped out for 951 and the brand association wavered. But they split, it's been hard to find a way back onto a bike from them here. 

5
HexonJuan
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7/25/2025 8:12am
HexonJuan wrote:
I think Intense is mostly a victim of their own hubris. There is no doubt they've been a huge influence in the market, especially in decades...

I think Intense is mostly a victim of their own hubris. There is no doubt they've been a huge influence in the market, especially in decades past, but that has waned considerably. I think they began losing luster once Sapa/Anodizing Inc shuttered frame building ops in OR, as then they went Asian carbon manufacturing. That didn't jibe well with many of the fans of the brand. Then you have them pulling out of the LBS's, and I remember being in SoCal and amazed at the number of shops that carried them prior to that. Talk about a kick to the willy for those dealers. Then the 951 deal with Costco, which at first offered a bit of a good deal on the bikes, but as we are here, now the bikes are dated and overpriced compared to the rest of the market. Then you have the new bike from frame up deal in conjunction with QBP. I don't think that's turning into the homerun they were planning for, but again my market is definitely not Intense territory. We can also look at how they handled warranties in years past, which was questionable at times, and left a bad taste in some buyers' mouths. The old upset customer tells many, the happy one few scenario. 

Couple the above with the number of brands in the market now and the glut of inventory waiting to be sold by the same and you have a perfect storm for contraction.

iRider wrote:
Intense never used SAPA in Portland, OR. They had their own, in-house production line in CA. AFAIK did Santa Cruz and Turner use SAPA for a...

Intense never used SAPA in Portland, OR. They had their own, in-house production line in CA. AFAIK did Santa Cruz and Turner use SAPA for a while.

Huh! Coulda swore they did since many of their yokes were (apparently) identical to those on early Ellsworth's, who did use Sapa. Those yokes cracked in the same places too.

1

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