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This looks wild. Is this a first of its kind type vehicle that you can purchase directly from a brand (I know CYC motors have been added to other bikes as an aftermarket addition), or is there anything else already out there that really looks like a mountain bike, but has a 6,000W motor and throttle?
I think the e-bike class system is imperfect, but at least draws the line between a two wheeled vehicle with and without a throttle (for class 1 & 3) and sets maximum assisted top speeds to a reasonable limit.
People ride them and motorcycles on private property too ya know! Your solution is to ban them outright? Lazy response. Try again…
A lot of people have already hit on it, but it boils down to users on higher powered ebikes not willing to play by any rules or do any work to ensure their own access because poaching is so much easier at the moment. Problem being I really don't see surron owners or others trying to build their own trails or paying for rock armored berms or jumps for "shared" trails.
As a person who has only really ever rode mountain bikes I don't want to take on the shared responsibility of trails with electric motos like surrons as a user group but in a lot of ways we're being forced into it until we either self differentiate in a more meaningful way or somehow get the new e-moto riders to contribute, specifically to their own trail access.
Three wheelers were made illegal to sell, not to own, and then the market eventually took care of it. Other than riding on private property, what use case is there for a Surron or light electric motorcycle? They seem like lame small motos to me, that are only actually useful for poaching MTB trails and illegally riding on the road as mopeds, because they are quiet.
They're just a law breaking machine that you can't truly legally ride anywhere. From my uninformed, but annoyed analog pedal-bike riding only perspective, those manufacturers and retailers don't invest in building trails, advocacy for riding areas, or community. They are not honest to their customers. They want to move as many jabroni-cycles to the uninformed as possible to make money because making money is a cool thing to do. What would a Surron-specific riding area look like anyway?? Endless clapped small jumps that no-one fixes? Where is the space and who is willing to invest?
The market is well ahead of regulations. There's just no epidemic of injuries and statistics like three-wheelers had backing up a legislation ban, but a ban on selling is a legitimate solution. No one is forced to take a course on responsible riding or get a moto license because the bikes are in a legislative grey area. Now get all Sierra-club and convince your local government to do something less grey about it.
There's no reason a Surron couldn't be ridden in any OHV approved area.. Although, here in California, they would probably get kicked out for not having a spark arrestor... Also, any MX track.. Especially, if they have a mini track..
Other than riding on private property, what use case is there for a Surron or light electric motorcycle? They seem like lame small motos to me, that are only actually useful for poaching MTB trails and illegally riding on the road as mopeds, because they are quiet.
No, they are not. They can be the solution to get people out of cars and commuting in an environmental friendly way.
I own a plated Sur Ron with all terrain tires that I use as a commuter on small side roads and dirt roads (open to motor traffic) when I cannot use the bike. So it is legal and I have a moto license to legally operate it on public roads. Disclaimer: I live in the EU where it is possible to get plates for an electric moto with both brakes as hand brakes, no foot brake required. What I have heard from friends in the US is, that even if they wish, they could not get plates for the same type of emoto as the requirement for a foot brake is not met. So clearly a legislation issue.
I would not ride this emoto on MTB trails as it is clearly a motorcycle. I also don't own an ebike nor do I have any interest in them. For me it is either a pure pedal bike, or a pure moto.
I dug back into the vital archives just to see how much we've kicked around these ideas (posted a handful of links below). The theme of this conversation dates back to 2017, when all the same talking points were echoed. From then to now the broad access problems e-bikes supposedly posed did not materialize. This isn't to say a few trails haven't been lost, but we've gained many more trails than we've lost in this period of time (for mtb and for e-mtb). To add, the areas we did lose trail are areas that have always been under fire due to how crowded the area is and broadly "politics".
Surrons have been around for 5 years. E-bike conversion kits with throttles have been around longer so I'm not sure what new news this is breaking here. People can cheat the class system and have been doing so for longer than its been around. Here is the thing, if you start to really turn mountain bikes into legit electronic motos (stark) you'll quickly learn about just how heavy batteries are and just how quickly you have to change the entire design into something more akin to a real motorcycle. Those wondering, storing electricity is 60-80x heavier than in gasoline form. If you are really interested in this part of the conversation, I go into the math here. Point is, you run into limitations fast and you start to pack on weight in a way that requires an entire redesign of a bike to have moto-like performance.
In that vein, if I show up to a mountain bike trailhead (say, white ranch outside of denver) on a Stark I'm going to get tackled, and for good reason. People police stuff pretty damn well, riders included.
Everyone here is worried about something that isn't worth worrying about. We all ride bikes, and we all like to do so fast in the dh direction. There is a touch of hypocrisy to all of this considering what I just wrote (we are all guilty of going around a corner too fast and encountering a hiker, uphill rider, etc at some point). I used to be on the side of "this is going to ruin everything" but again, look back. Look at whats happened. Look at the culture around Surron riding (its barely one). IMBA noted the number one thing that determines if there is a trail conflict isn't a motor or battery but rider skill. I hate IMBA, but it reinforces my point so I'm using them here
Somebody put a reminder to reconsider everything in this thread in 3-4 years. I'll happily put my money on all the people worried are worried about nothing. Any takers?
https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Why-Are-E-Bikes-Such-a-Touchy-Subject-in-the-U-S,2089
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-Hub,2/Electric-VS-normal-enduro-bike,9506
https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/E-Bikes-and-Why-Were-Testing-Them-The-Inside-Line-Podcast,2919
(Euro-centric reply) How about if we go down the route of requiring plates and road worthiness to be the responsibility of retailers, rather than relying on their customers to do the right thing? I've seen plenty of Surrons and throttle operated DIY conversions on the roads (and pavements) here in the UK. IMO when they're capable of 30-40mph they're mopeds (Surrons are capable of 45mph+ when unrestricted). I've yet to see one with a number plate.
That’s a great point Jeff. I think we may see an increase in e-usership in the future but Mtn biking is also trendy and it’s quite possible that we see a “return to analog” of various economic or cultural shifts happen. There is also the potential for e-Mtb to bring in massive users from moto. This thing is very “in flux” currently, which I think is why spomer posted the fresh thread. My trails are seeing light surron poach but it’s very infrequent, since we are all so high here- Colorado. The kids are all rich tho. Which I think does play role.
I mean in theory faster bikes that get people use them instead of cars would be more climate/environmentally friendly and would improve the living quality of all of us. The problem is that trail access in many regions is already difficult so we need some regulation. Plus riding a bike that weighs 30+ kg or sub 25 kg feels much different and lets you do different things plus the power of the motor and the weight will lead to more erosion on trails. So we need some rules. Riding surrons on hiking trails just doesn't make much sense.
I've also watched some videos of those surron owners and many also don't really seem to know what they are even doing. Doesn't look like much fun to me. Basically just monstertrucking over everything and if the terrain gets too difficult dragging the brakes and getting pushed by the weight. From the looks of it they would have been better off with an eTMB.
"leopard ate my face" vibes. *
and it doesn't stop here.
we now have proper motorcycle brands already in the ""mtb"" business, its just a matter of time before they step up to surron and build competition.
it was more than obvious that the "ebike" thing was just a way to get a ton of companies to get in an unregulated niche.
It killed enduro racing and a ton of bike brands and now probably trail access.
You wanted you got it; engines and batteries. "ITS THE FUTURE"
Enjoy.
* Downvotes count as a yes.
The Sur Ron Light Bee can be bought as 30 km/h mopped or 45 km/h in the EU and both require plates, insurance and a license. The first one can be operated from 15 YOA, the 45 km/h one from 18. Car license in most EU countries includes the license for the 45 km/h mopped.
So, yeah, the rules are already there, people just ignore them. Not sure how the retailers can come into this as many of these emotos are just/mainly used on private property.
Check this channel out. They know what they are doing and some of the backcountry riding they do looks super fun. At least more fun than a pedelec ride.
https://www.youtube.com/@ElectricCycleRider/videos
Fuck this forum ate my reply once I quoted a different post. :/
I doubt that this is more fun than a pedelec ride because motos need more space and dumbed down trails because they are not as maneuverable as light pedelecs. This backcountry riding is only possible in countries that have space for stuff like that. Central europe doesn't have backcountry riding like that. No chance of that happening anywhere except for really small circuits far off from the great outdoors. (we have moto tracks but they usually are placed where the noise doesn't affect anyone and have strict rules when you can ride there)
Currently there is a new petition for legalizing riding a pedal bike in the austrian woods (currently hiking trails and fireroads are banned for pedal bikes and anything moto except the land owner allows it) but I fear it won't be even heard (100000 signatures needed) because public acceptance of acoustic mountainbikes is already too low in this hiking centric country that's ironically the home of KTM.
https://www.derstandard.de/story/3000000273424/der-poebel-will-endlich-…
I hope that you are aware of the fact that a lot of the alpine roads and paths were open to offroad motorcycle use until not too long ago. A lot of the old military roads still are, e.g. in the Lake Garda region.
The lighter ones of the emotos are 50 kg and their geometry is not as slack as the e-moppeds that identify as bicycles. They are surprisingly nimble and, in the right hands, can climb better than a pedelec as you can use your feet to stabilize the bike and don't need your cranks to serve as a throttle in disguise. ;-)
I think most trails that an experienced mountainbiker can ride could be ridden with a light emoto, again by an experienced rider. Should they be on these trails: no, absolutely not! But neither should be other motorized vehicles like pedelecs.
The lightweight emotos could definitely handle most mountain bike trails... Would probably be a ton of fun on a lot of them.. I would love to get one to use at my local area to cut new mtb trails.. But, if I was to take one to the same area to play, I would keep it on the moto track that is also on the same land..
To make the lines even blurrier, Bonnell now has a model that uses the CYC Photon, which is almost as quiet as your typical e-mountain bike, and while the motor can do 2000w, the bike comes with either a 500wh battery or 800wh battery, so you'll probably won't be running it above 750 watts. It also weighs only 55 pounds, which isn't bad for a steel framed ebike. TBH, I wouldn't mind trying out the frame sans motor.
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But my point is the line is going to get so blurry that it will be impossible for land managers to effectively regulate based on anything other than noise.
Nah, they will then regulate based on license plates.
I don't know the legal frameworks for france and italy around this but I know that they seem to have more relaxed rules around using motos in some regions in the woods. But there is a big difference if you're using a trail uphill with a 250 to 750W pedelec or a throttle bike with 2000Watts. Should be a no brainer. Sure you're going to be faster with a throttle bike but it isn't as nimble as a mountainbike. You basically just monstertruck everything if you're not a trails skilled rider.
For example in Finale Ligure I saw some motos and offroad trucks but I never saw them riding on trails. They even have a rule there that they ban riding on the whole trail network after heavy rainfall to preserve them. Italy is a special case because they sometimes have very strict laws or even insane overregulation and bureaucracy but on the other hand don't enforce the laws or are very relaxed with them and people follow them only loosely or its some kind of gentlemans agreement between certain interest groups. But for a region like finale they saw the potential of extensive mountainbike tourism and seem to have some kind of agreement with the moto riders that they don't ride the mountainbike trails because it simply can't be sustaineable. If you ride moto on mtb trails you just end up with big ruts and erosion because of the power and weight those put on the ground. Even if you had the same power on a pedelec simply having to pedal limits how fast and long you can spin those tires. Doing a burn out on a pedelec is much more difficult than on a throttle bike.
So in my view for sustainable mountainbike trail networks we need to discriminate agains throttle bikes and maybe also pedelecs over a certain power limit. Because if a bike is a throttle bike is essentially just a question of software and control setup.
Mandate that all ebikes make acoustic noise similar to electric cars, so they'll be easy to tell apart from bikes and won't startle others like even the e-mopeds do.
Completely agree with better classification/seperation. I have an e-bike, my local trails have several e-bike riders, they are not allowed but we all do it. I ran into the DEC officer that monitors the land, known him for years. I shut down the motor and rolled up to him and had a brief talk, he did not notice until I went to ride away (motor was still off) and said "you know they are not allowed" I played dumb and said I thought class 1's were?? He had no idea on the different classifications, I went through it with him and he by the end he was a little more educated and then winked and smiled and said "try not to ride it here, I might have to get one to monitor the trails" I see more e-bikes than ever back there and no one has had a word said to them.
Another concern is on the street, like someone mentioned car vs e-bike accidents and most of the time it is the e-bikes fault, I see them on the sidewalks and wrong side of the road going 25+mph. One of those things hits your car it can easily be $5,000+ in damages, a registration and liability insurance wouldn't be a bad requirement also for the class 2 and 3 throttle bikes.
Class 2 is the only one with a throttle.. But, I've seen a couple of companies claiming class 2/3.. 20 with the throttle and 28 while pedaling, I guess?
As for the lightweight electric motorcycles on the streets, these kids think they are invincible, when in reality, they might as well be invisible..
We had riots in Cardiff a few years ago when a couple of kids died while riding a Surron (IIRC they were below the required age to ride a moped). It was claimed they were chased to their death by the police and even though the police made a statement that no pursuit was in place and released CCTV footage of them sitting in traffic behind the bike, but with no siren or flashing lights, the streets still erupted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC8LE7kRDMI
SORRY BOYS, 2.5 MILLION VIEWS ON YOUTUBE ALREADY!!! The world you knew is already gone.
Why does your view on what should be allowed on the trails conveniently aligns with what you have decided for yourself to use? A hiker would argue that no bikes should be on the trails because they all destroy them. In reality, it depends on the area, the soil type and type of trail how much it is affected by the different types of usage. That is harder to control, but common sense by the users should prevail. I know some legal-to-bike-on trails that I would not ride with a normal bike in the winter because of the damage that I would cause. In the summer they are fine and I would argue that they would also be fine for emotos (which are currently not at all legal on them).
Everybody that makes the argument that pedelecs don't damage the trails or only similar to normal bikes in the area that I live in has never done any kind of trail work. Having to armor uphill passages so that the roots of the trees do not get damaged (requirement for our trail building permits) was not something that we had to do some years ago. Now that is needed quite often. Maybe all the XC riders got fitter and put more wattage out, maybe it is the increased use by pedelecs? ;-) Your local experiences may vary.
So how does this behaviour differ from e-motos poaching MTB trails? If e-bikes are not allowed and nobody obeys the rule, so why should e-moto users? It is a user and not a classification problem.
I really wanted to hate it but by the end sorta liked it. It's like a lightweight stealth Surron. Improved versions of these Pedal E Moto's(PEM's?) are definately gonna make inroads on traditional e bike sales, and they will eventually look even more like them when the batteries get smaller and more integrated. My 50# double crown Kenevo feels so old and unspecial now.
Changing the topic slightly, but who thinks this situation changes massively if regular bike prices come down? I could see someone with no idea what they're looking at comparing a decent bike to whatever flavor of the month ebike company that is also in the price range and the ebike wins out because in their mind it has a motor.
If decent entry level mountain bikes were priced more competitively (undercutting the ebikes) I could see a lot more people and especially parents/kids opting for them. I'm not a huge walmart fan by any means but their new Ozark trail trail bike looks ok for what it is and if it was around 500 bucks might persuade a few people to buy a bike rather than ebike. I don't want it to be a race to the bottom price wise on bikes, but it seems like room for movement there.
I've also been thinking about maintenance and when battery performance starts to dwindle will this new wave of eriders buy another bike or will a lot of them be one and done?
IMO these are after the moto crowd, not MTB. And, bike prices are only going up.
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