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I agree with you guys who don’t think more power and fatter heavier bikes are what we need as Mtbers. I don’t either. I love my Relay, I don’t need more power just a better more refined total system.
I found this really informative
Most of the weight and odd weight distribution is in the battery, improve that, not power. I believe power is low hanging fruit to improve for marketing and since most batteries are ultimately 3rd party manufactures with slower tech improvements we'll see less gains there, where it all should be.
Yeah, I'm not going to bump up to 100nm of torque on my Vala when the software update comes out in July. 85 is already more than I need for any climb I do... more torque & peak power just means I'll drain the battery faster. I'd rather get another lap in than get to the top with a little bit less effort / time. The Bosch dynamic modes' power delivery are really good, and feel better than the Brose in the Levo gen 3 I had or my Fazua 60.
I think the European Union are going to 'outlaw' anything above 750 watts (not sure about Nm) in the near future, which to me is fine. We are also stuck with a 25kph (15.5 mph) cut off with assistance.
I think, for where I live (UK) that upper limit of 750 watts, and 20 mph cut off would be the sweet spot. Thats for emtb and e-roadie/commuters. I think if that was applied across the globe, manufacturers could then divert their efforts to bringing down weights of batteries and motors and improving the range/endurance of the machines.
Oh, and I've just got the new Levo 4 comp and it's a great bike. 666 watts and 101nm.
From the China bike expo... this I really like. AND frame only and (which I like) 29er compatible... the things I hoped Forbidden would be.
Looks pretty sweet...Like if a Sight VLT had a DJI equipped baby. From what I can tell, Velduro is based in NZ, but they don't even have this (or any) MTBs on the website yet. They only have an e-gravel bike listed. I'd like to see the specs on this baby to see how they compare, as the Sight VLT is a pretty compelling package (rear brake mount excepted). I'm curious to see what the weight is, and of course, angles and price.
The "more power" crowd consists mostly of bigger (heavier) riders who got used to exclusively riding in maxed out turbo mode.
I ride ebikes for 6 years and as a lighter rider with 70 kg I never felt the need to get anywhere close to having to max out the modes on Shimano, Bosch or Brose.
Yet the industry knows that they mostly sell new bikes to those people so they get constructed around their demands which leads to heavy bikes or bikes without a removable battery to save weight.
I dont weigh much more than you. I prefer to ride a few km/h more to skew the pedal/bike handling ratio toward bike handling always, as well as ride more technical steep climbs. Same workout as with my regular enduro bike but every trail is better
I'm a bigger/heavier rider at 95kg. The power of a Bosch CX is more than sufficient for my needs and I found myself using the lower power modes for technical climbing (yes, I'm a big guy that also loves to climb). It's much easier to keep traction that way than using full boost.
For me, battery size is more important than the motor at this point. I like doing big, dumb rides in the backcountry, and I don't want to have anxiety about the range OR have to deal with a range extender. I'll gladly take a couple extra pounds of bike in exchange for being able to do the rides I really want.
Sounds like you do some big rides, super rad. But opposite of what I want to do on my e rides, I want to do more laps hit big jumps rail berms with a bike that feels analog. There just needs to be options so with emtbs just like all the analog options. To bad lately all the new models are just bigger power and heavy battery’s. Nothing I want to buy, and I’d love to replace my beat down relay.
I replaced my relay with a bullit. No regrets and I'm super stoked on every aspect of the bike; kinematics, motor/battery, battery capacity with and without range extender and SC build quality. It is not only better than my relay from an ebike drivetrain perspective, it is way better at being a bicycle as well.
Agreed that options are good!
Talk about the worst of ALL worlds, heavy and short travel. BUT, POWER!
https://www.bianchi.com/store/us_EN/yuba8-e-verticfx-type9.1-sx12sp-0.h…
As a father of 2 i can relate. If i get granted 2 hours of freetime i want to get in just as much of the fun as possible, hence i got an mid assist ebike. I am riding with heart rate monitor and i get the same workout bit can cover alot more distance.
With that said, i got the Yt one with fazua engine. I paid way less for the decoy sn with the best setup you can order than what a santa cruz basemodel would have cost me. I recomend it as this bike shreds and i readonable priced
What kind of range are you getting out of the battery?
I agree completely. I picked up the lowest spec SN because I like to put my own parts on a bike and I still prefer cable shift (it actually came stock with my preferred drivetrain, Shimano SLX derailler and XT shifter - gotta have that double up).
I love the bike. I rarely ride in Turbo or river or whatever they call it. Has plenty of power and my after work 2 hour rides use around 60% battery. Mid power and weight are where its at.
Whats funny/tragic is that ebikes push newbies (but for some reason also seasoned reviewers) to 'shift' with the motor power modes instead of the gears.
Uphill gets steeper? Turbo!
Which in turn means turbo feels weaker than it should and people fail to climb technical sections if they didn't shift to the biggest cog which in turn creates a demand for more powerful motors and bigger batteries. The bigger problem in that regard is slo-mo fireroad cadence until the smallest cogs on the otherwise pristine cassette are worn out.
Quite a bit of range.
27.6 Miles / ~7,000' elevation gain - w/Range Extender - 25% battery remaining. Mostly tour/emtb with boost a handful of times for steep climbs.
24 Miles / ~5,100 elevation gain - NO range extender - 5% battery remaining - Nearly equal usage of all modes.
10spd 11-50 steel cassette has worked fine with my 70nm e8000. Im wondering with 100nm and 750w will an 9 , or even 8 , 11-48 or 46 be a nice even mix. It could even out the wear on the cassette and even have a shorter cage der
My Repeater EP801 is built with robot t-type, feels like total overkill. I'm thinking about going to 11 spd, probably SRAM X01 or the full steel version of GX. All my wheels are xd so I'll stick with that. I do a lot of punchy ass tech climbs (when healthy) and 32-42 is the lowest useful gear without spinning out up tricky climbs. 32-11 on a 29er is plenty tall to out run the top speed cutoff.
I really don't get 12 spd for e-mtb. 11 spd mechanical t-type would be Goldilocks. That stuff really does shift amazingly under power.
Has anyone attempted an integrated powertrain on an eeb? Like a gearbox and motor combo?
Interesting. I have the steel hg freehub body but no 11tooth with that. Xd is probably the way to go. I bought a couple chainrings to try and the smallest is a 34 i think. If i had the 11tooth i could use a 32. I like the sound of an 11-42 cassette. A medium cage der could definitely save a few breaks.
Smaller chainring and ill need some sort of downtune protector but thatll save bashing chains on ocks too. Do you use a downtube protector?
As an avid Ebike guy, I'm much more excited about integrated motor and gearboxes like the Pinion MGU. I think that the gearbox and belt drive is the future we should look at with ebikes. It just makes so much sense with the ebikes. No more drivetrain issues and keeps all the weight centered and down low. I really think it could be beneficial.
I couldn't care less about power. I think that's just the low hanging fruit for the motor company's to show "innovation".
That's not true that there are no drivetrain issues. The thread about problems with pinion mgu in some forum currently has 31 pages...
And the weight penalty is huge. Plus servicing and repairing them is way more complex and expensive than a derailleur system.
Yes, the Pinion MGU. Nicolai and Simplon launched bikes about a year ago and Haibike launched one today.
the steps in shifting between 4/5 and 8/9 also don't sound as nice in reality as on paper:
"At this point, I would like to briefly address a well-known problem with the encapsulated gearshift in the Pinion E1.12 MGU: the gear jumps between 4th/5th and 8th/9th gear. In addition to the actual gear, the gear stage, i.e. the planetary gear set, must also be changed. While the problem is only slightly noticeable between 8th and 9th gear, it is very noticeable in 4th/5th gear. If you are not used to a Pinion gear system and shift under full load - for example when pedaling up a steep climb - you will probably be surprised at the uncultivated shifting process between these two gears. This is because the crank is suddenly without load for a short time and can drop almost a quarter of a crank revolution down into the void, which is a real no-go for me on an e-mountainbike. Now the gearing is graded in such a way that you're quite often in 3rd, 4th or 5th gear on the uphills and shifting back and forth between them. I'm not sure whether you can get used to this somewhat special shifting behavior, but a good friend who has been riding with Pinion gears on his organic and e-bike for a long time always says: "Rico, that's really no problem at all. It's easy to get used to and you'll eventually find shifting to 12 o'clock completely normal." - Okay, I'll leave it at that, and as is so often the case in life, it has to suit your own application scenario and individual preferences."
there also seem to exist different loudness in the system:
"Range 1 (1st-4th gear) and range 2 (5th-12th gear). While the motor is very, very quiet and barely audible in range 2, i.e. from 5th gear upwards, it is unmistakably loud in the lower four gears, i.e. in range 1 (1st-4th gear). If you're riding up a long climb with a high cadence under load, I recommend putting AirPods or other headphones in or on your ears and turning up the music a little so that you don't have to listen to the buzzing, loud hum of the motor. In times of ever quieter engines, this engine sound is simply too loud."
translated via deepl from:
https://www.emtb-news.de/news/haibike-allmtn-e-bike-2025-pinion-test/
i'm gonna try to grab one next week on the cycle week zurich to experience it on my own
That is what I am talking about, gearbox and motor internal, referred to as a powertrain on a car
Insert Dirt Bike joke here.
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