Clamping down on the axle is what improves torsional rigidity of an usd fork. Besides bending the stanchions also twist a bit and also twist around...
Clamping down on the axle is what improves torsional rigidity of an usd fork. Besides bending the stanchions also twist a bit and also twist around the axle. Clamping that down makes it a bit stiffer.
Hey all, learned a lot about bending and tube shapes in this discussion. To your point, clamping a tube is extremely effective at preventing rotation, i.e...
Hey all, learned a lot about bending and tube shapes in this discussion. To your point, clamping a tube is extremely effective at preventing rotation, i.e. the handlebar/stem interface or seatpost/seattube interface. No one makes hexagonal seatposts or handlebars, because bolts and clamps seem to work just fine. Not a lot of rotation if things are clamped down properly.
I disagree with @TheSuspensionLabNZ (which doesn't happen very often, or ever?) that the axle of a USD is not experiencing significant torsional loads. I think the front wheel on any MTB fork is experiencing tremendous torsional loads because of one-sided disc brakes. I learned this on an illuminating and frightening road ride on an early-generation disc cyclocross bike with a QR front axle. I like road rides that are steep, hilly, and fast on the descents, but this fork was twisting dramatically in the wag/yaw axis whenever I jammed on the brakes, so much that I was being pushed wide on turns at 40+ mph, which was horrifying. I had to ride at basically half speed on all the descents because the front of the bike would wander and push/pull so much when I braked. Yikes.
That's an extreme example, and thank God no one makes QR disc forks anymore (for road or mountain bikes), but the lesson remains. When you make a USD fork, by removing the arch from a traditional telescoping fork, you're asking the axle to do all the work in preventing that torsional wag/yaw force under braking. I think that's more of a concern for than rider input forces, but when you combine all those [braking, trail, and body input] forces together it gets really bad. And then add in the left/right imbalance in forces from single-sided dampers and springs that others have mentioned, that are adding roll forces at the axle. It’s a lot
Imagine a steep set of grippy jagged rocks that you have to brake through into a turn, where you're braking, compressing, decelerating, setting up to turn, and leaning the bike all at the same time, with body inputs in every direction, and maybe stuffing the front wheel into some weird rock shapes that want to deflect the front wheel in the wrong direction, too. That's the scenario where a set of overbuilt and "too stiff" Fox 40 lowers are going to be your friend. By comparison, when you're coasting and not braking on a slippery off-camber, the USD fork is going to be brilliant and the Fox 40 is going to deflect. Trade offs. And this trade off is going to be amplified when we're talking about a single crown USD fork. Color me suspicious of these new single crown USD forks. Would love to try one to see if I’m wrong.
@carlinojoevideo you have a set of Dorados on your bike and some gyroscopes for DAQ, right? Would you equip each of the dropouts (left and right) and the topcap with a gyro if you have enough gear to make it happen?
Theoretically that way, if they are all synced, you could see DS dropout rotation around the axle axis caused by the braking torque (good point @TEAMROBOT) versus the NDS and comparing both to the top cap you could see how much torsion occurs
Not sure you could see yaw of the wheel with the gyros, I'm afraid that might be a separate thing with the hub twisted in between the dropouts causing the movement. And with an usd fork you can't even put time of flight sensors to measure rim deflection left-right as you don't have a fixed geometry (the stanchion is moving up and down relative to the rim it being the outer tube...). Mounting them to the stanchion guards won't be precise enough I'd say... Maybeeee if you had an emerald with the fairly stiff carbon arch thingie.
Or if you mount time of flight sensors to a carrier on a rail, mount a rail (industrial thingie, same stuff that Yeti used on the 303) to the upper stanchion and fix the carrier in place to the dropout to ensure it stays in the same position relative to the wheel, but slides up and down on a very well defined track in the outer stanchion.
I have been riding a USD fork for about a year now. The only time I notice the torsional twist is when climbing techy stuff and the front wheel gets offline/lodged between rocks. When trying to dislodge the wheel, the chassis twist is apparent compared to a traditional fork. Never an issue when moving at speed.
However, it does feel different when hard on the front brake with good traction compared to a traditional fork. Not a bad or vague feeling, just different. Like there is more braking modulation & traction available. It was apparent when first swapping the fork.
At one point Specialized thought it was a good idea to make a MTB front wheel with radial lacing on the non-disk side of a carbon rim. It was used on the single crown E160 fork that had a 20mm thru axle and pretty stout chassis. That wheel would squirm, wind up, and get all sorts of sketchy when hard on the brakes.
Clamping down on the axle is what improves torsional rigidity of an usd fork. Besides bending the stanchions also twist a bit and also twist around...
Clamping down on the axle is what improves torsional rigidity of an usd fork. Besides bending the stanchions also twist a bit and also twist around the axle. Clamping that down makes it a bit stiffer.
Hey all, learned a lot about bending and tube shapes in this discussion. To your point, clamping a tube is extremely effective at preventing rotation, i.e...
Hey all, learned a lot about bending and tube shapes in this discussion. To your point, clamping a tube is extremely effective at preventing rotation, i.e. the handlebar/stem interface or seatpost/seattube interface. No one makes hexagonal seatposts or handlebars, because bolts and clamps seem to work just fine. Not a lot of rotation if things are clamped down properly.
I disagree with @TheSuspensionLabNZ (which doesn't happen very often, or ever?) that the axle of a USD is not experiencing significant torsional loads. I think the front wheel on any MTB fork is experiencing tremendous torsional loads because of one-sided disc brakes. I learned this on an illuminating and frightening road ride on an early-generation disc cyclocross bike with a QR front axle. I like road rides that are steep, hilly, and fast on the descents, but this fork was twisting dramatically in the wag/yaw axis whenever I jammed on the brakes, so much that I was being pushed wide on turns at 40+ mph, which was horrifying. I had to ride at basically half speed on all the descents because the front of the bike would wander and push/pull so much when I braked. Yikes.
That's an extreme example, and thank God no one makes QR disc forks anymore (for road or mountain bikes), but the lesson remains. When you make a USD fork, by removing the arch from a traditional telescoping fork, you're asking the axle to do all the work in preventing that torsional wag/yaw force under braking. I think that's more of a concern for than rider input forces, but when you combine all those [braking, trail, and body input] forces together it gets really bad. And then add in the left/right imbalance in forces from single-sided dampers and springs that others have mentioned, that are adding roll forces at the axle. It’s a lot
Imagine a steep set of grippy jagged rocks that you have to brake through into a turn, where you're braking, compressing, decelerating, setting up to turn, and leaning the bike all at the same time, with body inputs in every direction, and maybe stuffing the front wheel into some weird rock shapes that want to deflect the front wheel in the wrong direction, too. That's the scenario where a set of overbuilt and "too stiff" Fox 40 lowers are going to be your friend. By comparison, when you're coasting and not braking on a slippery off-camber, the USD fork is going to be brilliant and the Fox 40 is going to deflect. Trade offs. And this trade off is going to be amplified when we're talking about a single crown USD fork. Color me suspicious of these new single crown USD forks. Would love to try one to see if I’m wrong.
@carlinojoevideo you have a set of Dorados on your bike and some gyroscopes for DAQ, right? Would you equip each of the dropouts (left and right)...
@carlinojoevideo you have a set of Dorados on your bike and some gyroscopes for DAQ, right? Would you equip each of the dropouts (left and right) and the topcap with a gyro if you have enough gear to make it happen?
Theoretically that way, if they are all synced, you could see DS dropout rotation around the axle axis caused by the braking torque (good point @TEAMROBOT) versus the NDS and comparing both to the top cap you could see how much torsion occurs
Not sure you could see yaw of the wheel with the gyros, I'm afraid that might be a separate thing with the hub twisted in between the dropouts causing the movement. And with an usd fork you can't even put time of flight sensors to measure rim deflection left-right as you don't have a fixed geometry (the stanchion is moving up and down relative to the rim it being the outer tube...). Mounting them to the stanchion guards won't be precise enough I'd say... Maybeeee if you had an emerald with the fairly stiff carbon arch thingie.
Or if you mount time of flight sensors to a carrier on a rail, mount a rail (industrial thingie, same stuff that Yeti used on the 303) to the upper stanchion and fix the carrier in place to the dropout to ensure it stays in the same position relative to the wheel, but slides up and down on a very well defined track in the outer stanchion.
Yeah I’ll try and pull some fore aft and torsional data between different forks I’ve tested.
FYI from an earlier post, the screen shot of the foam model from the MTBR Levo video might be the new Demo, not Enduro.
FYI from an earlier post, the screen shot of the foam model from the MTBR Levo video might be the new Demo, not Enduro.
I thought the same thing, but it definitely isn't a carbon/production model of the newest DH prototype they're on, the one with two chains. The #twochainz bike doesn't have the linkage under the BB, or the pivot at the bottom of the front end of the chainstay swingarm. The new bike seems to have the dogbone link going through the BB structure instead of around and under it.
not sure why I had the notion Banshee was cooking something and that would come up in SeaOtter ? Anybody in the know here ? I may be interested in a Titan (well, always had, but stars did not align).. but I'll hold if v3.2 are on the way out
I thought the same thing, but it definitely isn't a carbon/production model of the newest DH prototype they're on, the one with two chains. The #twochainz...
I thought the same thing, but it definitely isn't a carbon/production model of the newest DH prototype they're on, the one with two chains. The #twochainz bike doesn't have the linkage under the BB, or the pivot at the bottom of the front end of the chainstay swingarm. The new bike seems to have the dogbone link going through the BB structure instead of around and under it.
Yeah, the foam model is a single chain, probably an idler pulley layout vs the two chain layout of the DH bike. There's no geometry for the layshaft visible in the foam model.
Maybe it's a Demo model of the old proto though, the low pivot height one?
not sure why I had the notion Banshee was cooking something and that would come up in SeaOtter ? Anybody in the know here ? I...
not sure why I had the notion Banshee was cooking something and that would come up in SeaOtter ? Anybody in the know here ? I may be interested in a Titan (well, always had, but stars did not align).. but I'll hold if v3.2 are on the way out
Titan is technically 5 years old and is still such an amazing bike you can happily ride it for years to come. But something new has to be cooking, last week they were selling off frames on their US store with something like 50% discount... Just hope they are not moving into the "companies be shutting down" thread, you cant be really sure in theese uncertain times 🤐
not sure why I had the notion Banshee was cooking something and that would come up in SeaOtter ? Anybody in the know here ? I...
not sure why I had the notion Banshee was cooking something and that would come up in SeaOtter ? Anybody in the know here ? I may be interested in a Titan (well, always had, but stars did not align).. but I'll hold if v3.2 are on the way out
Titan is technically 5 years old and is still such an amazing bike you can happily ride it for years to come. But something new has...
Titan is technically 5 years old and is still such an amazing bike you can happily ride it for years to come. But something new has to be cooking, last week they were selling off frames on their US store with something like 50% discount... Just hope they are not moving into the "companies be shutting down" thread, you cant be really sure in theese uncertain times 🤐
banshee is a small operation, IIRC 5 or 6 people. running that lean I would think they can weather tough times in the larger industry better than other companies. given how long their current lineup has been available I certianly hope the closeout sale is indicative that something new is coming. every time i'm in the market for a new bike they always seem to make my short list.
I can't figure out why anyone making an inverted fork in 2025, especially a single crown inverted fork, wouldn't use the Manitou hex axle to add...
I can't figure out why anyone making an inverted fork in 2025, especially a single crown inverted fork, wouldn't use the Manitou hex axle to add torsional stiffness. The patent is expired and it adds almost no weight. I imagine a 15mm hex axle is significantly stiffer in torsion than a round 20mm axle, and doesn't require a new front hub. Especially if you're already doing pinch bolts, you can do it the way the Dorado has been doing it since 2002? It's so simple!
We'd finally settled on Boost 15mm as a trail bike front hub, and now it's blowing up again. Sigh.
As somebody who's tested this variable back to back on the same chassis (not two totally different forks), the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. Maybe we need...
As somebody who's tested this variable back to back on the same chassis (not two totally different forks), the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.
Maybe we need to do a fork stiffness deep dive like the excellent frame compliance analysis Burney did. But in short, forks also have roll and wag. Everyone usually thinks of only wag and they test it with the wheel between the legs, but I'd argue this is only a valid indicator of stiffness during full braking on dry pavement. In this situation, the hex axle can offer a small benefit in reducing wag, but in actual on trail braking the wag isn't as severe and therefore the benefits didn't out weight the complexity of that design.
If we really want to have a conversation about on trail stiffness and compliance of modern USD forks, roll would really be the focus.
One of the things Push said that made sense to me when they launched their USD fork last year was that there isn't enough traction on the front wheel to significantly twist a fork during riding.
Most of their launch was too much marketing speak, but that statement made sense.
Of course hitting rocks and other obstacles likely exerts higher force than just turning, so who knows where the reality is.
not sure why I had the notion Banshee was cooking something and that would come up in SeaOtter ? Anybody in the know here ? I...
not sure why I had the notion Banshee was cooking something and that would come up in SeaOtter ? Anybody in the know here ? I may be interested in a Titan (well, always had, but stars did not align).. but I'll hold if v3.2 are on the way out
I believe in a interview a few months ago they said likely two Models coming out this spring….the new hardtail already released, and there was heavy hinting at a new dark side. But they said no other new releases imminent. Maybe things have changed.
Yeah - Some new Moto suspension from Intend. Sliding bushings in the front fork, and a newly developed air+coil rear shock. Shock only recommended for people above 85kg. Also modular shock mount, so you can swap between regular eyelet and trunnion mount, cool idea.
Limited to 10 pieces, seems like they are already sold out. But we can hope they start selling the rear shock in the future, but in their normal colors. Seems like a lot of work to develop a full cnc'd one piece shock housing, and having springs made+speced by Eibach for 10 shocks.
Yeah - Some new Moto suspension from Intend. Sliding bushings in the front fork, and a newly developed air+coil rear shock. Shock only recommended for people...
Yeah - Some new Moto suspension from Intend. Sliding bushings in the front fork, and a newly developed air+coil rear shock. Shock only recommended for people above 85kg. Also modular shock mount, so you can swap between regular eyelet and trunnion mount, cool idea.
Limited to 10 pieces, seems like they are already sold out. But we can hope they start selling the rear shock in the future, but in their normal colors. Seems like a lot of work to develop a full cnc'd one piece shock housing, and having springs made+speced by Eibach for 10 shocks.
Yeah - Some new Moto suspension from Intend. Sliding bushings in the front fork, and a newly developed air+coil rear shock. Shock only recommended for people...
Yeah - Some new Moto suspension from Intend. Sliding bushings in the front fork, and a newly developed air+coil rear shock. Shock only recommended for people above 85kg. Also modular shock mount, so you can swap between regular eyelet and trunnion mount, cool idea.
Limited to 10 pieces, seems like they are already sold out. But we can hope they start selling the rear shock in the future, but in their normal colors. Seems like a lot of work to develop a full cnc'd one piece shock housing, and having springs made+speced by Eibach for 10 shocks.
Just sharing my two cents on the Intend Edge, since I've been riding one for a while. TLDR - I don't like it. Long version - I have the Edge, which I ride at 170mm travel. The fork is incredibly smooth on initial stroke, which actually leads to some sensation lost/vagueness on contact, not sure if I can covey that feeling correctly. There's almost a "are my front wheels on the ground?" feeling. I don't believe it's a bad thing, but I could never get used to it. Separate issue is there's not enough damping for me, but that's can be fixed with a new shim stack so nothing on Intend. I've gone to an dual crown EXT Vaia set at 180mm, pretty interested to see how that will fare in the downhill season.
Well, I guess I was right based on these comments - gotta love the internet. - I never swung my opinion in that post, I just pointed out people get in the comments and rage about it being to short. 🤷♂️
Damn it, I thought it was going to be my turn post the link to the tech rumours derailment of the day thread elsewhere on vital, but it doesn't look like there's a chain stay/rear center length fight topic. How is there no "fight about chain stay length here" thread already??
I think a lot of the roll in the rear wheel is generated by the way the frame is designed and I would not be surprised...
I think a lot of the roll in the rear wheel is generated by the way the frame is designed and I would not be surprised there is fairly little (compared to the rear) roll going on with the front wheel. You would be twisting the wheel basically towards the stanchion where the fork is the strongest. I'd guess most of the loading generated in this direction would be deflected to a different axis/plane just due to the structure of the fork, it buckling out of axis, etc.
If we are talking about roll specifically, I would not be surprised if roll was a much bigger factor with USD forks (no bridge) than with rsu forks (I also tested a bridge less RSU fork in that analysis and it's a noodle) but at the same time I would be surprised if the main factor generating roll was rider's inputs vs. The fork itself - the forces generated by the spring are not the same as the forces generated by the damper, on the return stroke they are not only not the same scale, they are even working one against the other so actually working really strongly to generate roll. With an USD fork the stanchion-interface-to-dropout, dropout itself, the axle (diameter and thickness) and it being clamped into the dropout and the hub assembly is the only thing preventing roll generated by the stanchions moving unsynchronised.
True, there is fairly little roll in the front compared to the rear, but I'd contend that perception in the front is much greater. Case in point, differences in casings between tires is so nuanced yet people have very firm opinions on front tires and are relatively laxed about casing stiffness in the rear.
The point I was really trying to articulate is the general perception of torsional flex/stiffness of inverted forks has been incorrectly focused on the wag. When somebody says the USD "is too flexy" or "has better compliance", I would say they are most likely characterizing the roll of the fork.
Yes, in heavy braking the USD has no doubt more wag than a RSD, and it can cause the handle bars to be misaligned with the tire in certain stimulations. Although, I'd argue your brain is so used to making micro steering adjustments that additional wag is just automatically compensated and therefore bends to the background of riding. However, with roll just a very small amount can change the perception of support or grip when leaned over in a corner or on an off-chamber, much like the small differences in tire casings.
Damn it, I thought it was going to be my turn post the link to the tech rumours derailment of the day thread elsewhere on vital...
Damn it, I thought it was going to be my turn post the link to the tech rumours derailment of the day thread elsewhere on vital, but it doesn't look like there's a chain stay/rear center length fight topic. How is there no "fight about chain stay length here" thread already??
5'9", 485mm reach, 32mm stem, 437mm CS. Rides great for me, I feel like I'm in the bike and not ass over rear axle like I was with the bikes of only a few years ago.
CS/ rear center that grows/shrinks with bike sizes though is ideal. Always thought it'd be nice to offer a front triangle and an option of rear triangle in various sizes so riders could mix and match. I know that's not feasible from an inventory/investment standpoint but its a dream and it'd satisfy the tens of us that care.
Back when I was young and much faster, in 2011 when short chainstays were all the rage, I had the gen 2 Coilair Magic link. It had like 470mm chainstays or something (thats really long for a 26" bike from 15 years ago). I was faster on it for my local DH track that had lots of steep, loose shale where the 3 min DH segment had average speeds above 25 mph. It was faster for me than my DH bike at the time, despite the Kona having some really crappy tires on it. However, that same Kona was noticeably slower on other non-DH trails, especially flow trails. I struggled to keep up with guys I'd smoke on the DH trail(s).
Turns out, "there are no solutions, only tradeoffs". Different length chainstays will have advantages on different types of trails.
So, clearly the solution is that you have to own multiple bikes. I think the industry will agree with me here.
No one cares... but I'm going to post it anyway. I'm 6'2", I like a 490-500mm reach and I like a 445-450 chainstay to pair with that reach. That range depends on the HTA and front center, but I can be happy with a bit shorter CS with a bit less reach or a bit steeper head tube angle.
The Vala's (and the bullit) look pretty close to spot on for me, I quite like those geo figures on my XL v6 nomad. That's not to say that I don't also enjoy a short chainstay on the right bike... but I don't think I need something much longer (if at all) for my riding then SC is making.
If I were to be specializing in specific terrain, or doing more horses for courses... but I tend to ride mixed speeds from bumbling to a bit too fast for my own comfort zone. So, pretty much dad bike and dad riding style levels of send.
I’m loving the comeback of the nineties in mountain biking. I hope coloured tires are coming too… haha
@carlinojoevideo you have a set of Dorados on your bike and some gyroscopes for DAQ, right? Would you equip each of the dropouts (left and right) and the topcap with a gyro if you have enough gear to make it happen?
Theoretically that way, if they are all synced, you could see DS dropout rotation around the axle axis caused by the braking torque (good point @TEAMROBOT) versus the NDS and comparing both to the top cap you could see how much torsion occurs
Not sure you could see yaw of the wheel with the gyros, I'm afraid that might be a separate thing with the hub twisted in between the dropouts causing the movement. And with an usd fork you can't even put time of flight sensors to measure rim deflection left-right as you don't have a fixed geometry (the stanchion is moving up and down relative to the rim it being the outer tube...). Mounting them to the stanchion guards won't be precise enough I'd say... Maybeeee if you had an emerald with the fairly stiff carbon arch thingie.
Or if you mount time of flight sensors to a carrier on a rail, mount a rail (industrial thingie, same stuff that Yeti used on the 303) to the upper stanchion and fix the carrier in place to the dropout to ensure it stays in the same position relative to the wheel, but slides up and down on a very well defined track in the outer stanchion.
They're already here
https://versustires.com/collections/enduro-casing
Is that Grice Crispy losing his rice krispies? 😀
I have been riding a USD fork for about a year now. The only time I notice the torsional twist is when climbing techy stuff and the front wheel gets offline/lodged between rocks. When trying to dislodge the wheel, the chassis twist is apparent compared to a traditional fork. Never an issue when moving at speed.
However, it does feel different when hard on the front brake with good traction compared to a traditional fork. Not a bad or vague feeling, just different. Like there is more braking modulation & traction available. It was apparent when first swapping the fork.
At one point Specialized thought it was a good idea to make a MTB front wheel with radial lacing on the non-disk side of a carbon rim. It was used on the single crown E160 fork that had a 20mm thru axle and pretty stout chassis. That wheel would squirm, wind up, and get all sorts of sketchy when hard on the brakes.
Haha, they’re fantastic!
FYI from an earlier post, the screen shot of the foam model from the MTBR Levo video might be the new Demo, not Enduro.
Yeah I’ll try and pull some fore aft and torsional data between different forks I’ve tested.
I thought the same thing, but it definitely isn't a carbon/production model of the newest DH prototype they're on, the one with two chains. The #twochainz bike doesn't have the linkage under the BB, or the pivot at the bottom of the front end of the chainstay swingarm. The new bike seems to have the dogbone link going through the BB structure instead of around and under it.
not sure why I had the notion Banshee was cooking something and that would come up in SeaOtter ? Anybody in the know here ? I may be interested in a Titan (well, always had, but stars did not align).. but I'll hold if v3.2 are on the way out
Yeah, the foam model is a single chain, probably an idler pulley layout vs the two chain layout of the DH bike. There's no geometry for the layshaft visible in the foam model.
Maybe it's a Demo model of the old proto though, the low pivot height one?
Titan is technically 5 years old and is still such an amazing bike you can happily ride it for years to come. But something new has to be cooking, last week they were selling off frames on their US store with something like 50% discount... Just hope they are not moving into the "companies be shutting down" thread, you cant be really sure in theese uncertain times 🤐
banshee is a small operation, IIRC 5 or 6 people. running that lean I would think they can weather tough times in the larger industry better than other companies. given how long their current lineup has been available I certianly hope the closeout sale is indicative that something new is coming. every time i'm in the market for a new bike they always seem to make my short list.
One of the things Push said that made sense to me when they launched their USD fork last year was that there isn't enough traction on the front wheel to significantly twist a fork during riding.
Most of their launch was too much marketing speak, but that statement made sense.
Of course hitting rocks and other obstacles likely exerts higher force than just turning, so who knows where the reality is.
I believe in a interview a few months ago they said likely two Models coming out this spring….the new hardtail already released, and there was heavy hinting at a new dark side. But they said no other new releases imminent. Maybe things have changed.
Yeah - Some new Moto suspension from Intend. Sliding bushings in the front fork, and a newly developed air+coil rear shock. Shock only recommended for people above 85kg. Also modular shock mount, so you can swap between regular eyelet and trunnion mount, cool idea.
Limited to 10 pieces, seems like they are already sold out. But we can hope they start selling the rear shock in the future, but in their normal colors. Seems like a lot of work to develop a full cnc'd one piece shock housing, and having springs made+speced by Eibach for 10 shocks.
https://www.intend-bc.com/shop/moto/?v=efad7abb323e
How much were they selling for? I can't find it on their website (can't watch the video right now)
Here is link to the product page: https://www.intend-bc.com/shop/moto/?v=efad7abb323e
Just sharing my two cents on the Intend Edge, since I've been riding one for a while. TLDR - I don't like it. Long version - I have the Edge, which I ride at 170mm travel. The fork is incredibly smooth on initial stroke, which actually leads to some sensation lost/vagueness on contact, not sure if I can covey that feeling correctly. There's almost a "are my front wheels on the ground?" feeling. I don't believe it's a bad thing, but I could never get used to it. Separate issue is there's not enough damping for me, but that's can be fixed with a new shim stack so nothing on Intend. I've gone to an dual crown EXT Vaia set at 180mm, pretty interested to see how that will fare in the downhill season.
Well, I guess I was right based on these comments - gotta love the internet. - I never swung my opinion in that post, I just pointed out people get in the comments and rage about it being to short. 🤷♂️
Damn it, I thought it was going to be my turn post the link to the tech rumours derailment of the day thread elsewhere on vital, but it doesn't look like there's a chain stay/rear center length fight topic. How is there no "fight about chain stay length here" thread already??
True, there is fairly little roll in the front compared to the rear, but I'd contend that perception in the front is much greater. Case in point, differences in casings between tires is so nuanced yet people have very firm opinions on front tires and are relatively laxed about casing stiffness in the rear.
The point I was really trying to articulate is the general perception of torsional flex/stiffness of inverted forks has been incorrectly focused on the wag. When somebody says the USD "is too flexy" or "has better compliance", I would say they are most likely characterizing the roll of the fork.
Yes, in heavy braking the USD has no doubt more wag than a RSD, and it can cause the handle bars to be misaligned with the tire in certain stimulations. Although, I'd argue your brain is so used to making micro steering adjustments that additional wag is just automatically compensated and therefore bends to the background of riding. However, with roll just a very small amount can change the perception of support or grip when leaned over in a corner or on an off-chamber, much like the small differences in tire casings.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-Hub,2/The-Internet-Was-Wrong-Short-Chainstays-Suck,9344
There is a forum for everything.
5'9", 485mm reach, 32mm stem, 437mm CS. Rides great for me, I feel like I'm in the bike and not ass over rear axle like I was with the bikes of only a few years ago.
CS/ rear center that grows/shrinks with bike sizes though is ideal. Always thought it'd be nice to offer a front triangle and an option of rear triangle in various sizes so riders could mix and match. I know that's not feasible from an inventory/investment standpoint but its a dream and it'd satisfy the tens of us that care.
Back when I was young and much faster, in 2011 when short chainstays were all the rage, I had the gen 2 Coilair Magic link. It had like 470mm chainstays or something (thats really long for a 26" bike from 15 years ago). I was faster on it for my local DH track that had lots of steep, loose shale where the 3 min DH segment had average speeds above 25 mph. It was faster for me than my DH bike at the time, despite the Kona having some really crappy tires on it. However, that same Kona was noticeably slower on other non-DH trails, especially flow trails. I struggled to keep up with guys I'd smoke on the DH trail(s).
Turns out, "there are no solutions, only tradeoffs". Different length chainstays will have advantages on different types of trails.
So, clearly the solution is that you have to own multiple bikes. I think the industry will agree with me here.
No one cares... but I'm going to post it anyway. I'm 6'2", I like a 490-500mm reach and I like a 445-450 chainstay to pair with that reach. That range depends on the HTA and front center, but I can be happy with a bit shorter CS with a bit less reach or a bit steeper head tube angle.
The Vala's (and the bullit) look pretty close to spot on for me, I quite like those geo figures on my XL v6 nomad. That's not to say that I don't also enjoy a short chainstay on the right bike... but I don't think I need something much longer (if at all) for my riding then SC is making.
If I were to be specializing in specific terrain, or doing more horses for courses... but I tend to ride mixed speeds from bumbling to a bit too fast for my own comfort zone. So, pretty much dad bike and dad riding style levels of send.
Came here to see some new tech news but all i got was a bunch of opinons about chainstay length no one really cares about.
What about chainstay girth?
Too far?