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The way Giant operates is more similar to Shimano than Specialized/Trek. Giant does have USA and Europe division but the headquarters and most of the high level decision making is in Taiwan. During the pandemic boom, as most NA and European were pushing for 2-3x orders/inventory and shouting at Asian factories to invest into additional production capacities, those Asian companies/factories held their ground and only optimized their current production capacities instead of gambling on the boom demand to transform into long-term demand (which obviously didn't happen)
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/international/2021/03/07/specialized-and-accell-executives-urge-taiwan-increase-capacity
From my understanding, Giant also only runs Giant bikes on the assembly line when they aren't doing work for others at some factories. During the Pandemic, that was by far the hardest of any large or medium sized brand's to get. From my understanding (Absolute rumor), because they were full throttle on other projects which were not their own line, as their own line is direct inventory/risk to their bottom line, and other brands that they build for take the inventory risk for bikes they have made. Although as it's been mentioned here a few times, Trek may still owe them a substantial amount of $$, so their Trek dollars over all may be down.
With manufacturing down from other brands, Giants have started showing up in stock and show rooms again.
wasn't giant in the beginning just a show off brand like astro? to advertise their manufacturer capabilities?
I feel what you're saying but I'd change it to more like SR Suntour than Shimano since SR does manufacture for other folx while Shimano decidedly doesn't. However just like Shimano and SR, Giant decidedly takes a protracted approach to the whims of the industry. They're not a company that panics and that has decidedly served em well.
My understanding is, and its kind of alluded to a few posts up regarding schwinn, is that Schwinn couldn't pay for a large order of bikes, so Giant re-branded them since they were sitting on them anyway and when they realized they could market their own product as well at better margins on both ends, they continued to make their own line.
That linked article has not aged well.
Has anyone noticed if bike influencers are starting to have a hard time doing whatever it is they do? I don't follow many influencers, but there seems to be a contraction in the influence-o-sphere, based on the clickbait headlines [i.e. "Big Changes For Me", "It's All Over", "Time To Go", etc.] that show up in my various social media feeds. Anyone else seeing this?
"Please take on more debt and systemic risk at great cost over the next decade so we can buy more products at lower cost right now with no long-term risk or commitment. Or else."
"My last point is: invest. You are either at the table or you are on the menu, you guys. If you are on the menu, believe me, there are other countries and there are other companies that will certainly have you for lunch."
The menu appears to have been Ton Anbeek, no longer CEO at Accell.
I remember that article - it was clearly obvious that ramping up production back then would be spectacularly stupid, im glad the asian manufacturers stood their ground.
It's reassuring that there are a lot of smart people over there who know how to maintain a smooth and stable supply for everyone at a reasonable price 🙂
On a completely unrelated note didn't mike Sinyard step away from specialized about a year after that?
I don't know in the rest of the world, but where I ride (east of France) covid has messed things up quite a bit. We used to organize rides through a messageboard and there could be big rides (up to 20 or 30 people sometimes, a bit of a mess :p), it had started to decline before covid but despite the bike boom during covid, the messageboard is now dead, now there are small groups through whatsapp and other networks like that.
People's riding habits have changed, no more big rides, a few buddies here and there, a decent minority now on ebikes, some riding mostly with kids who have grown up. We used to all be bike nerds looking for improving our bikes but now each mostly has one do it all trail bike.
Maybe there's still some bike nerds amongst enduro-bro, but I don't ride enduro so I don't know.
My point is, influencers won't influence anyone that I know. People I know just get a good value trail bike and that's it.
On top of this, bikes are now pretty good, after the whole +-2010-2020 evolution, MTBs are now mature, no need to upgrade so no need to be influenced. My 2019 ESD is still as good as 5 years ago.
Maybe also add to this difficult economic times, people don't have as much money to spend on expensive toys.
I imagine it's like most content creators/influencers - i feel like many of them were getting paid close to FA if anything, and bike companies were very happy to take advantage of that. They got to make content "for the love of it" (I hate that term) and shiny bike parts while companies got tons of cheap marketing but that doesn't pay the bills, especially once thise bills get exponentially more expensive.
I know this is a dirty word to a lot of people but a business or creator needs to make a profit just to survive - which means people in business need to not undervalue themselves and consumers need to accept that we have to pay for a product (physical or virtual) one way or another. That's either paying content creators directly or by buying the products from companies who are paying creators appropriately.
Assuming FA means “f@ck all”? If so, I’d push back on that a little, at least for the bigger names/audiences. From my experience we paid influencers (ew, still don’t like that word) roughly in line with what we would pay an individual athlete at a similar level. Obviously there’s going to be some variation depending on the specific agreement, but I could see how some of them could earn a decent living by piecing together just a handful of big sponsors.
There were some really big names that came to us with proposals nearing what we would provide to a competitive World Cup team.
No doubt there were a ton of smaller names doing it mainly for free product though. That is not how I prefer to roll though. I’m a big believer in paying folks for their work.
Y'all do realize the people who were trying to get Taiwanese factories to triple their capacity to support the permanent increase in demand that was going to be created by Covid are the same people who thought paying influencers would have good ROI. Could simply be that, absent any external factors, brands are simply realizing that most of us don't give a sh!t, and the rest of us have wised up to the fact social media is just a collection of disguised commercials.
When times get rough, marketing budgets are amongst the first things to get cut.. Whether these influencers are getting paid, or just getting free product, it's a hit on the bottom line. So, now those people have to change their game plan.. At some point, things will settle down and some money will be added back to marketing budgets..
Is "Gravel Biking" In the room with us right now?
Mwood, you asked a little while back about how people figured out Carbonda had Nukeproof - Carbonda is the "will sell DTC" branch of Flybike, the actual manufacturer who will not sell DTC. Members of a forum dedicated to the stuff have found they have Dissents, Megas and Gigas available in various colours.
I respectfully disagree with your observation that influencers aren't effective. While it's true there are some cringy/hacky influencers that make me want to stab my eyeballs out, there's an enormous audience for outdoor content that isn't quite journalism. People love a good yarn, and at their core, that's what influencers are selling. It can be done poorly, but it can also be done well. For instance, Seth pouring Johnson's baby oil in his brakes and testing them for a year. It's not journalism, I know it's a paid ad for Diamondback, but still... I'd buy that for a dollar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63VIuPiX3CA&t=234s
I'm sure Seth's bottom line is hurting from the bike industry's massive post-Covid contractions, but he'll have a paycheck in the bike industry for as long as he wants to keep making videos. Also worth mentioning, there are different sorts of influencers just like there are different sorts of customers. There are more knowledgable influencers for smarter customers, spoon-feeding influencers for dumb people who like to be spoon-fed and new riders who need to be spoon-fed, and hyper-consumeristic influencers (unboxing videos, etc) for customers that are extra consumeristic. If media sucks but it's being consumed in large numbers, it's due in part to the fact that people suck, i.e. "Real Housewives" or "Selling Sunset."
Plus, if they have built up a big enough following on YouTube, the checks from that can be decent.. Remember, when the Diamondback deal ended for Seth, he didn't try to get another bike sponsorship.. But, he's figured out ways to get money out of this..
Hard agree T-Bot.
Sorry, long post. I type a concise thing that - upon a quick proofread - is non-understandable unless you're actually sharing my brain. The attempt to explain sets my fingers out on on a keyboard dance marathon. Still probably incoherent but at least out of my head rather than in.
Hardtail Party, MTB Alan, Skills with Phil, Evan's MTB Saga, Matty Active, Remy Metaillier, Syd and Macky, Amanda Hamilton, Pedal Vision, GuyKesTV, McTrail Rider, Singletrack Sampler, etc. are YouTube channels that all speak to different people. Some of those listed I absolutely cannot stand. Some of them are fine. Some of them I watch everything they release. That's just a smattering of ones I thought of that - to me - are influencers as much or more than they're anything else (in a public-facing way, at least). They each have an audience to whom they're presenting opinions that are validated by some social-proof follower number or brand endorsement or demonstrated capability. They also may or may not be monetizing that audience effectively but that's more of a charisma/ambition-to-a-certain-goal thing than a pure test of influence.
Who/what else can be an influencer? Worldwide Cyclery's MTB Podcast? That's influential. People who might buy from WC or a similar company could be influenced by that. I feel like I'd buy from them before I'd buy from Jensen because WC seems more knowledgeable and more engaged with their customers. Then again Jeff Kendall-Weed speaks fondly of Jensen...and he RIPS... My local shop is good, though, so they'll still get most of my purchases. Is my local shop an influencer? Are team riders influencers? Does the term influencer begin in the vacuum of a lack of other employment? Are journalists influencers? What about freelance journalists?
ALL of those people are handing out opinions like they're statements of fact with the intent to entertain as much as they are to steer you toward supporting them and the brands they're working with. Except Amanda Hamilton, maybe. I don't think I've seen her advertise a product beyond "this is what I or someone else is riding" but I'd trust her more than I would Evan from Evan's MTB Saga.
I wouldn't be thinking about Tuned Mass Dampers if not for whatever sicko decided to create VitalMTB. I've definitely been influenced a little by the folks who share ideas in an online meeting space.
Sorry again for the long ramble. Happy Northern Hemisphere spring.
p.s. What do we think about TMDs on a hardtail set up with low air pressure, large tires, and an insert? Extra sproingy from the tire pressure, TMD helping to alleviate the sproingy chatter (maybe with a Mondraker 2024 DH bike-esque dropout mount), and tire insert to prevent flats. I'm not planning on it because it seems like a solution looking for a problem but my brain has been mulling over this "TMD on a hardtail" thing since the first time I read about TMDs on the Vital forums.
That's good to hear - there are for sure a lot of people doing it well and both parties get a fair deal - it would be nice to see some more discussion about business and sponsorship in mountain biking. Especially in the modern world where it's not just about race results any more. It can be hard to distinguish who's doing it "right" and who isn't from the outside. Even if a company is only providing product, that still costs money so if the creator (not a fan of the word influencers either, creator sounds a little better but maybe still diminishes what they actually do) isn't generating a return, while not earning money either, it's a loss for everybody.
Yeah Seth is one of the ones who i immediately thought of! Brian Cahal is another who I think has been bringing unique and interesting content to the world. It sucks when certain channels are more interested in gaming the algorithm for clicks, than putting out meaningful content because it makes the good ones harder to find. I probably watch YouTube the most but they definitely reward the algorithm-friendly content which puts creators in a tough spot because they have to consciously change what they put out if they need the income stream it provides from ad revenue. This is the type of thing a lot of people mention when they leave YouTube and its a bummer because it's hard to find quality content that's easy to access anywhere else
I thought I was going to make a flippant, overly broad statement bashing influencers, others would pile on, and then we'd all move on. But I suppose we could also have an adult, nuanced discussion about it if you insist.
You make great points. Marketing people may have actual terms of art, but I'll throw out the following common-sense definitions:
Influencer: someone who simply rides, maybe traveling around in their van, and generally does what they'd do if they were independently wealthy, films it all, and then puts it on Instagram and YouTube. Shreddits would go in this category, as would any video that contains a bunch of brand decals on a handlebar.
Content Producer: someone who thinks creatively and uniquely about market demand, holes in the current offerings, etc., and then produces content in an intentional way as part of some sort of business plan. They are not documenting what they'd do anyway. They are thinking pretty similar to a reporter or a producer.
I would be surprised if Influencers have good ROI, especially for an established brands. I live in the southeast, so I'll watch Singletrack Sampler to see whether new trails are worth the trip. I'll watch Skills with Phil because I like it. I know this forum isn't the right audience to ask this question, but who has purchased, or even thought about purchasing, or knows someone who has done either, a Fezzari/Ari or GT because of those individuals (or at all). Does anyone think Santa Cruz would have sold more bikes if they had sponsored those channels?
All that said, I'll readily admit a huge amount of personal bias against social media. And I'll also concede that no matter how rational and aware I think I am, all this stuff gets to everyone on a subconscious level, which is to say that it's more effective than I wish it was.
Finally, I'd be really curious to hear from some people that make the decisions on how to spend these dollars. I'm grateful to all the people with real industry knowledge that come here and share it.
I'll bash them for you. All influencers are awful. Seth's bike hacks was the start of it and ruined everything. Everytime I see any influencer content recommended to me I die a little more inside.
Bashing aside, I think the rise of influencers as marketing in mountain biking and cycling in general is a sign of the sport losing its identity. Whether that's good or bad is up to you, but most influencer content I see markets more to out groups and casual people over core riders, and with the covid casual rider kind of phasing out, I wonder if we will see a shift away from influencers for marketing back to more core rider focused marketing.
I'm definitely feeling nostalgic for the bike culture that I grew up with, forgive my rose tinted glasses.
We’ve gone full circle to Henry Quinney complaining about influencers bumbling down trails again.
That being said, I do agree with him. Not everyone needs to be able to make a living out of his hobby, and way too many influencers suck at riding or are unlikeable donkeys.
i dont really consume biking videos besides the stuff the pros put out and have zero interest in some vanlife bro hyping up his newest sponsored gear, and I don’t think I’m in a minority.
All the office workers on the Vital forums are getting their scheudenfruede rocks off watching the influencers go back to desk jobs:
I think the reality of it may be more along these lines:
there's a huge myth to the influencer/content creation story that always seems to be ignored. the myth is that "you too can have it all" because all you need is a selfie stick, gopro and social media. "there are no 'gate keepers' any longer like back in the olden days" is a line i often hear. i'd wager passing through the gates (held by billion-dollar companies that control the algorithm) to success is infinitely more difficult now than it ever was in 1987, 1996, 2003 or 2011.
it's no different than an actor from a small midwest town going to hollywood to try and make it big or a kid dreaming of being in the NFL or a kid thinking they'll have a career like rachel atherton or greg minnaar.
odds are NOT in your favor, it takes insane amounts of non-stop, endless work, a bit of luck and probably compromises that some aren't willing to make. and then the moment you think have it figured out, the gate keepers decide they don't your formula any longer.
i'm so freaking thankful for vital and the COMMUNITY of people here. it's not a single person's experience, it's an invaluable collection of unique experiences from passionate, dedicated two-wheelers. i'm an old cruster and can't stomach instagram for more than a swipe or two, but i can read all the forum gold (and garbage) here and feel like mountain biking is in a great spot full of great people. (whoa, random sunday ramble...)
Hey, leave Lumbergh and the the Chotchkies guy alone, they've suffered enough!
i'm an old cruster too!
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