Definitely a bleed issue... I've been on the new, with contact point adjustment, brakes for about 6 months now. If you are not degassing the fluid...
Definitely a bleed issue... I've been on the new, with contact point adjustment, brakes for about 6 months now. If you are not degassing the fluid before doing the bleed, you should. I also use fresh fluid on every bleed, I dont re-use old, opened containers (assuming that you are using DOT) The lever is pretty good at trapping bubbles, and they can be a pain to get out. Once you have pushed fluid from the caliper to the lever, close the caliper and pull a good vacuum from the lever syringe. I made a "tool" that lets me pull the vacuum and not have to keep holding it, its a spacer made from an old extra-long socket that I cut a slot on with a die-grinder, been using it for years! Once you have the vacuum pulled you can move the lever body around and tap on it to force any bubbles up into the syringe. Once you get it, its good, but I I did a quick bleed on them when I got them and had a pretty big oh sh*t moment the first ride out when the front brake went to the bar halfway down the mountain... Once you get it they are solid. I will say they are probably one of the more difficult brakes to bleed of any modern disc brake IMO, but once you get them dialed they are one of the best brakes I've ever had the pleasure of riding.
I also have found that its pretty important to bleed with the pads in while the brake is on the bike. It's in the instructions and I glossed over that when I first bled the brakes which could have been my problem. Ive found that there is a single position for my bike that magically helps to migrate bubbles to the lever, hanging front tire up in my bike storage system, so i bleed the brakes with the bike in that position in the stand. Once I learned that and re-bled them in that position I haven't had to touch them, 5+ months and lots of weekends on the lifts.
Also, what did you set the contact point adjustment to when bleeding them?My current issues are:Front brake reservoir membrane can’t handle pulling a vacuum. When I...
Also, what did you set the contact point adjustment to when bleeding them?
My current issues are: Front brake reservoir membrane can’t handle pulling a vacuum. When I have a syringe connected to the lever and push positive pressure, it doesn’t leak from the vent hole. But if I pull on the syringe to create a vacuum, it sucks air in like crazy.
Rear brake can handle a vacuum but if I depress the lever while pulling the vacuum, it sucks air in just like the front brake.
The rear membrane leaked like crazy when I first bled it but removing and reinstalling the bladder seemed to fix it. I did the same to the front brake but it didn’t fix it.
Neither brake seems to leak from the master cylinder pistons and hose connections are all tight and not leaking.
I’m wondering if I have a bad set…
I truly wonder how components of this pricepoint can have these issues from new especially when they are hand built and tested.
Something doesn't sound right; I would reach out to Taylor. I can pull a vacuum strong enough to collapse the syringe line and not start sucking bubbles. Just out of curiosity what bleed kit are you using? I tried using an older Jagwire kit when I first got the brakes and ran into issues with the tapered port not sealing and sucking air from that interface, I ended up getting the Park pro kit, which works much better and made it possible to get a good bleed. I found that if I set the bite point two turns out from closing off the transfer port I get a good bleed and have plenty of adjustment to dial the bite to where I want.
Something doesn't sound right; I would reach out to Taylor. I can pull a vacuum strong enough to collapse the syringe line and not start sucking...
Something doesn't sound right; I would reach out to Taylor. I can pull a vacuum strong enough to collapse the syringe line and not start sucking bubbles. Just out of curiosity what bleed kit are you using? I tried using an older Jagwire kit when I first got the brakes and ran into issues with the tapered port not sealing and sucking air from that interface, I ended up getting the Park pro kit, which works much better and made it possible to get a good bleed. I found that if I set the bite point two turns out from closing off the transfer port I get a good bleed and have plenty of adjustment to dial the bite to where I want.
Hope you get them sorted out!
I’ve sent Taylor multiple emails to explain the issues. I’m using a Jagwire elite bleed kit, the same he sells on the website so I thought it would be best.
I’m positive the leakage is not from the bleed kit since I can pull a strong vacuum with the same syringe on the rear but not on the front lever.
I’ve sent Taylor multiple emails to explain the issues. I’m using a Jagwire elite bleed kit, the same he sells on the website so I thought...
I’ve sent Taylor multiple emails to explain the issues. I’m using a Jagwire elite bleed kit, the same he sells on the website so I thought it would be best.
I’m positive the leakage is not from the bleed kit since I can pull a strong vacuum with the same syringe on the rear but not on the front lever.
I have no experience with the Radic brakes, but just wanted to chime in to say that, for all brake manufacturers, it would be a boon for both the consumer and the seller if they could: A: Deliver or suggest a bleed kit that will seal reliably under vacuum, and B: Design their brake so that the reservoir bladder/membrane (and MC seal!) can handle the negative pressure range generated by pulling on a syringe. I know many brakes can be bled "sufficiently" without negative pressure, but if you have ever watched a sticky bubble in a translucent line grow and shrink in response to +/- pressure, you will have seen how valuable it can be to vary the system pressure when bleeding the brake.
On a related note, what percentage of current brakes have a vent hole in the bladder/membrane? I can see why it is tempting to include one, to prevent over pressurization in odd circumstances, but it seems like it introduces as many problems as it solves. If I was designing a brake, I might be tempted to add one, but would only add it if it could be designed so it had a sort of exterior flap that would seal against the face of the membrane in neutral and negative pressure scenarios, but open in positive pressure scenarios.
Absolutely an informative thread. It took me two days to read it all.
I'm running Shimano Saint brakes with Shimano XT SM RT-86 203mm discs. My recipe for success has been that I change a new set of Shimano H03C metal disc brake pads every spring at the start of the season. My observation is that changing the pads is quite a cheap way to zeroize the free lever movement to near zero and get a good grip also during the season if some issues occur. I also keep the master cylinders pressurized during storage with velcro straps. A couple of random bleeds here and there also seem to keep the green liquid green and braking power in good shape.
My other bike (ebike) has Hayes Dominion A4 for trail riding. Their only problem has been that pads are so done that free lever movement is getting ridiculous. I think new pads would fix them also. In theory, it shouldn't be like this but my impression from bicycle brake is that anything can happen.
Question: I would like to the rotors from 203mm - > 220mm. The idea that I'm chasing is that with bigger rotors I would get the same braking power with less lever pull. It's more a curious test than a real critical need. Are there any specific rotors that would be valuable to look after?
Galfer 223mm sounds to be good. Braking Epta two-piece 2,2mm / 220mm would be nice looking but doesn't fit.
Absolutely an informative thread. It took me two days to read it all.I'm running Shimano Saint brakes with Shimano XT SM RT-86 203mm discs. My recipe...
Absolutely an informative thread. It took me two days to read it all.
I'm running Shimano Saint brakes with Shimano XT SM RT-86 203mm discs. My recipe for success has been that I change a new set of Shimano H03C metal disc brake pads every spring at the start of the season. My observation is that changing the pads is quite a cheap way to zeroize the free lever movement to near zero and get a good grip also during the season if some issues occur. I also keep the master cylinders pressurized during storage with velcro straps. A couple of random bleeds here and there also seem to keep the green liquid green and braking power in good shape.
My other bike (ebike) has Hayes Dominion A4 for trail riding. Their only problem has been that pads are so done that free lever movement is getting ridiculous. I think new pads would fix them also. In theory, it shouldn't be like this but my impression from bicycle brake is that anything can happen.
Question: I would like to the rotors from 203mm - > 220mm. The idea that I'm chasing is that with bigger rotors I would get the same braking power with less lever pull. It's more a curious test than a real critical need. Are there any specific rotors that would be valuable to look after?
Galfer 223mm sounds to be good. Braking Epta two-piece 2,2mm / 220mm would be nice looking but doesn't fit.
Running a bigger rotor achieves less finger force needed at the lever. But keep in mind that if you never get a 220mm rotor up to temperature, a 200mm rotor can have more power as it heats up faster.
I’ve ran:
Intend massive 223
Galfer Wave 223
Sram centerline 220
Sram HS2 220
Hope floating 220
TRP R1 223
Magura MDR-P 220
Out of all these I currently run the hopes. They’re thin at 1.8mm but due to the riveted design they’re the quietest rotors I’ve ever had. By quietest I meant it in the sense that they don’t ”ring” like 1-piece rotors.
I would run MDR-P’s but they don’t make the 220mm version in centerlock. (I hate that Chris King decided to make centerlock hubs only for 2022-2023 and then switched back to also making 6-bolt hubs).
The ringing is a really minor thing to most but when you otherwise have a completely quiet bike, I cant stand the ringing sound that happens when I’m off the brakes or when I drop my bike on the ground.
If you get a 1-piece rotor, make sure it’s as thick as it can be so it’ll be as rigid as possible. This is to reduce the likelyhood of warping. With a 2-piece/riveted rotor, the brake track thickness isn’t as crucial IMO as the carrier will provide the needed stiffness.
Running a bigger rotor achieves less finger force needed at the lever. But keep in mind that if you never get a 220mm rotor up to...
Running a bigger rotor achieves less finger force needed at the lever. But keep in mind that if you never get a 220mm rotor up to temperature, a 200mm rotor can have more power as it heats up faster.
I’ve ran:
Intend massive 223
Galfer Wave 223
Sram centerline 220
Sram HS2 220
Hope floating 220
TRP R1 223
Magura MDR-P 220
Out of all these I currently run the hopes. They’re thin at 1.8mm but due to the riveted design they’re the quietest rotors I’ve ever had. By quietest I meant it in the sense that they don’t ”ring” like 1-piece rotors.
I would run MDR-P’s but they don’t make the 220mm version in centerlock. (I hate that Chris King decided to make centerlock hubs only for 2022-2023 and then switched back to also making 6-bolt hubs).
The ringing is a really minor thing to most but when you otherwise have a completely quiet bike, I cant stand the ringing sound that happens when I’m off the brakes or when I drop my bike on the ground.
If you get a 1-piece rotor, make sure it’s as thick as it can be so it’ll be as rigid as possible. This is to reduce the likelyhood of warping. With a 2-piece/riveted rotor, the brake track thickness isn’t as crucial IMO as the carrier will provide the needed stiffness.
Have you considered centre lock adaptors and if so, what's your reason to avoid them?
Have you considered centre lock adaptors and if so, what's your reason to avoid them?
Yes I’ve used adapters. Nothing wrong with them but it makes installing slightly more faffy.
I haven’t used centerlock adapters with magura 220mm rotors. I won’t consider rotors from unknown manufacturers like sumart or other shit like that. Aside from hope vented rotors (which are too thick to work and also don’t fit the adapters), the mdr-p’s are one of the thickest rotors I know but they don’t make the 220mm in centerlock.
BCA makes a 2.4mm 6-bolt rotor which I could use with an adapter but I haven’t tried them (yet).
Kiitos AnttiH for your replies.Has anyone tested the effects of fully cleaning the Shimano phenolic pistons? Is using compressed air the safest method to remove the...
Kiitos AnttiH for your replies.
Has anyone tested the effects of fully cleaning the Shimano phenolic pistons? Is using compressed air the safest method to remove the pistons?
Cleaning pistons is good general maintenance and makes a difference in the seal longevity and helps clear up the bores of any material that might lead to corrosion build up, but I'd just go ahead and order one of the aftermarket rebuild kits on Amazon/Ali and swap the pistons and seals out. Then you'll be well able to clean the piston pockets, ensuring less likelihood of corrosion build up. Those kits work well enough and are cost effective, so if you're going to disassemble a caliper you may as well rebuild it with fresh seals and pistons. Air compressor works a peach to pop the pistons. Blow in from the hose port or caliper bleeder port and make sure to wrap the caliper in a rag prior to doing so.
What do you mean with the vent hole in the membrane?
There are vent holes in the membrane cover. The membrane can't have any holes in it.
Yeah man, I don't know what I was thinking! I have seen brakes that have little signs of fluid weeping from the vent hole in the membrane cover, and I had thought some manufacturers might have been incorporating a sort of pressure relief hole into the rubber membrane. On further consideration, I guess they all probably just had membrane failures, or weren't' tightened evenly such that fluid could work its way around to the air vent hole in the cover.
They are quite a bit cheaper then Magura or Galfer pads. And as stated earlier in this thread, that when pads get contaminated they are impossible the get back to top performance, a cheaper but decent pad alternative would be good.
Long story short, he said that it’s normal that the brakes don’t hold a vacuum due to the design of the piston seals.
This is the first time I’ve had this with any brake but I got a relatively good bleed by cycling fluid back and forth and then bleeding the lever with a cup. I kept the lever depressed for 30mins and then pumped it to get any residual air out (there wasn’t any). But that seemed to lessen the pump up.
No, I've never seen those before, and while we're talking about new MTB brake brands, I forget if we've already discussed these new HEL brakes earlier...
They claim some sort of special caliper fluid channel and piston design, but I'm unsure if that is just regular brake design that their marketing department is jazzing up as if it's unique.
My dumb ass did that thing where I drink tequila and go online shopping… anyhow I bought a pair of these before thoroughly reading (and being thoroughly unimpressed with) the specs. I guess I’ll decide if they finally arrive whether they’re worth running or not. Currently on Hayes Dominions and they’ve been my favorite brakes as of late, Magura MT7s were ok but had some issues I wasn’t super happy with but I was able to finally get a good bleed on them after much trial and error.
Have anyone tested pads from Sixpack racing?They are quite a bit cheaper then Magura or Galfer pads. And as stated earlier in this thread, that when...
Have anyone tested pads from Sixpack racing?
They are quite a bit cheaper then Magura or Galfer pads. And as stated earlier in this thread, that when pads get contaminated they are impossible the get back to top performance, a cheaper but decent pad alternative would be good.
My dumb ass did that thing where I drink tequila and go online shopping… anyhow I bought a pair of these before thoroughly reading (and being...
My dumb ass did that thing where I drink tequila and go online shopping… anyhow I bought a pair of these before thoroughly reading (and being thoroughly unimpressed with) the specs. I guess I’ll decide if they finally arrive whether they’re worth running or not. Currently on Hayes Dominions and they’ve been my favorite brakes as of late, Magura MT7s were ok but had some issues I wasn’t super happy with but I was able to finally get a good bleed on them after much trial and error.
Yeah on paper they look very “meh” at best performance wise 🧐 but curious to know how they are when you get them
Any (real) idea why one side of the Saint master piston looks like it has been scratching itself to the point that the surface looks matte? The other side looks more glossy and normal.
FYI: Trickstuff finally released a high quality English bleeding videos https://www.youtube.com/@trickstuffgmbh It is good to see the extra caliper bleed step in video format.
Any (real) idea why one side of the Saint master piston looks like it has been scratching itself to the point that the surface looks matte...
Any (real) idea why one side of the Saint master piston looks like it has been scratching itself to the point that the surface looks matte? The other side looks more glossy and normal.
As Primoz just said, clearly its being sideloaded. In addition to that, it might have to do with the surface finish on the inside of the master cylinder body. In the huge volume of discussion of the Shimano wandering bite point phenomenon, I saw it pointed out that Shimano master cylinder bodies are bare aluminum, while the claim was made that other more boutique brakes like Hopes are hard anodized after the master cylinder is bored, so they have a smoother internal surface. I could imagine that after a lot of cycles, especially if there is any oxidation that has formed, the Shimano may offer a significantly more abrasive surface.
It's being pushed to one side by the lever mechanism. The lever is not acting perfectly axialy but at a bit of an angle. I suppose.
Exactly. Watch how the push rod articulates through the stroke. There's a sudden direction change. If the ball joint interface between the pushrod and piston bind up, that piston is getting loaded incorrectly and won't travel parallel through the bore.
Has anyone thought (in theory atleast) about modifying a motorcycle brake master cylinder, like a Brembo or equivalent, for use on a downhill bike? What issues, aside from handlebar radius and the large brake fluid reservoir, might arise?
Something doesn't sound right; I would reach out to Taylor. I can pull a vacuum strong enough to collapse the syringe line and not start sucking bubbles. Just out of curiosity what bleed kit are you using? I tried using an older Jagwire kit when I first got the brakes and ran into issues with the tapered port not sealing and sucking air from that interface, I ended up getting the Park pro kit, which works much better and made it possible to get a good bleed. I found that if I set the bite point two turns out from closing off the transfer port I get a good bleed and have plenty of adjustment to dial the bite to where I want.
Hope you get them sorted out!
I’ve sent Taylor multiple emails to explain the issues. I’m using a Jagwire elite bleed kit, the same he sells on the website so I thought it would be best.
I’m positive the leakage is not from the bleed kit since I can pull a strong vacuum with the same syringe on the rear but not on the front lever.
Sounds like they're still as fussy as ever 🙄 I fixed mine by selling them 🤣
I have no experience with the Radic brakes, but just wanted to chime in to say that, for all brake manufacturers, it would be a boon for both the consumer and the seller if they could: A: Deliver or suggest a bleed kit that will seal reliably under vacuum, and B: Design their brake so that the reservoir bladder/membrane (and MC seal!) can handle the negative pressure range generated by pulling on a syringe. I know many brakes can be bled "sufficiently" without negative pressure, but if you have ever watched a sticky bubble in a translucent line grow and shrink in response to +/- pressure, you will have seen how valuable it can be to vary the system pressure when bleeding the brake.
On a related note, what percentage of current brakes have a vent hole in the bladder/membrane? I can see why it is tempting to include one, to prevent over pressurization in odd circumstances, but it seems like it introduces as many problems as it solves. If I was designing a brake, I might be tempted to add one, but would only add it if it could be designed so it had a sort of exterior flap that would seal against the face of the membrane in neutral and negative pressure scenarios, but open in positive pressure scenarios.
What do you mean with the vent hole in the membrane?
There are vent holes in the membrane cover. The membrane can't have any holes in it.
Absolutely an informative thread. It took me two days to read it all.
I'm running Shimano Saint brakes with Shimano XT SM RT-86 203mm discs. My recipe for success has been that I change a new set of Shimano H03C metal disc brake pads every spring at the start of the season. My observation is that changing the pads is quite a cheap way to zeroize the free lever movement to near zero and get a good grip also during the season if some issues occur. I also keep the master cylinders pressurized during storage with velcro straps. A couple of random bleeds here and there also seem to keep the green liquid green and braking power in good shape.
My other bike (ebike) has Hayes Dominion A4 for trail riding. Their only problem has been that pads are so done that free lever movement is getting ridiculous. I think new pads would fix them also. In theory, it shouldn't be like this but my impression from bicycle brake is that anything can happen.
Question: I would like to the rotors from 203mm - > 220mm. The idea that I'm chasing is that with bigger rotors I would get the same braking power with less lever pull. It's more a curious test than a real critical need. Are there any specific rotors that would be valuable to look after?
Galfer 223mm sounds to be good. Braking Epta two-piece 2,2mm / 220mm would be nice looking but doesn't fit.
Running a bigger rotor achieves less finger force needed at the lever. But keep in mind that if you never get a 220mm rotor up to temperature, a 200mm rotor can have more power as it heats up faster.
I’ve ran:
Intend massive 223
Galfer Wave 223
Sram centerline 220
Sram HS2 220
Hope floating 220
TRP R1 223
Magura MDR-P 220
Out of all these I currently run the hopes. They’re thin at 1.8mm but due to the riveted design they’re the quietest rotors I’ve ever had. By quietest I meant it in the sense that they don’t ”ring” like 1-piece rotors.
I would run MDR-P’s but they don’t make the 220mm version in centerlock. (I hate that Chris King decided to make centerlock hubs only for 2022-2023 and then switched back to also making 6-bolt hubs).
The ringing is a really minor thing to most but when you otherwise have a completely quiet bike, I cant stand the ringing sound that happens when I’m off the brakes or when I drop my bike on the ground.
If you get a 1-piece rotor, make sure it’s as thick as it can be so it’ll be as rigid as possible. This is to reduce the likelyhood of warping. With a 2-piece/riveted rotor, the brake track thickness isn’t as crucial IMO as the carrier will provide the needed stiffness.
Anyone know the master cylinder diameter for mavens? Sorry if I missed this deeper in the thread
I think it's 9.5mm from memory
Have you considered centre lock adaptors and if so, what's your reason to avoid them?
Yes I’ve used adapters. Nothing wrong with them but it makes installing slightly more faffy.
I haven’t used centerlock adapters with magura 220mm rotors. I won’t consider rotors from unknown manufacturers like sumart or other shit like that. Aside from hope vented rotors (which are too thick to work and also don’t fit the adapters), the mdr-p’s are one of the thickest rotors I know but they don’t make the 220mm in centerlock.
BCA makes a 2.4mm 6-bolt rotor which I could use with an adapter but I haven’t tried them (yet).
Kiitos AnttiH for your replies.
Has anyone tested the effects of fully cleaning the Shimano phenolic pistons? Is using compressed air the safest method to remove the pistons?
Cleaning pistons is good general maintenance and makes a difference in the seal longevity and helps clear up the bores of any material that might lead to corrosion build up, but I'd just go ahead and order one of the aftermarket rebuild kits on Amazon/Ali and swap the pistons and seals out. Then you'll be well able to clean the piston pockets, ensuring less likelihood of corrosion build up. Those kits work well enough and are cost effective, so if you're going to disassemble a caliper you may as well rebuild it with fresh seals and pistons. Air compressor works a peach to pop the pistons. Blow in from the hose port or caliper bleeder port and make sure to wrap the caliper in a rag prior to doing so.
Yeah man, I don't know what I was thinking! I have seen brakes that have little signs of fluid weeping from the vent hole in the membrane cover, and I had thought some manufacturers might have been incorporating a sort of pressure relief hole into the rubber membrane. On further consideration, I guess they all probably just had membrane failures, or weren't' tightened evenly such that fluid could work its way around to the air vent hole in the cover.
It's just water/moisture getting pushed out from above the membrane. It's normal.
Or fluid that might have gotten in there from messy bleeding or that has seeped through the membrane.
Have anyone tested pads from Sixpack racing?
They are quite a bit cheaper then Magura or Galfer pads. And as stated earlier in this thread, that when pads get contaminated they are impossible the get back to top performance, a cheaper but decent pad alternative would be good.
MTB Brake Pads | Semi, sinter, organic | Sixpack Racing
Got a reply from Taylor.
Long story short, he said that it’s normal that the brakes don’t hold a vacuum due to the design of the piston seals.
This is the first time I’ve had this with any brake but I got a relatively good bleed by cycling fluid back and forth and then bleeding the lever with a cup. I kept the lever depressed for 30mins and then pumped it to get any residual air out (there wasn’t any). But that seemed to lessen the pump up.
My dumb ass did that thing where I drink tequila and go online shopping… anyhow I bought a pair of these before thoroughly reading (and being thoroughly unimpressed with) the specs. I guess I’ll decide if they finally arrive whether they’re worth running or not. Currently on Hayes Dominions and they’ve been my favorite brakes as of late, Magura MT7s were ok but had some issues I wasn’t super happy with but I was able to finally get a good bleed on them after much trial and error.
They are probably made by Galfer as apparently they have euro Manufacturing
Yeah on paper they look very “meh” at best performance wise 🧐 but curious to know how they are when you get them
Crosspost from another forum but I find the information interesting:
https://www.emtb-news.de/forum/threads/bremsscheiben-design-vs-funktion.11971/
Tirolbiker63 seems to be on the topic. I'm not sure if he posts here either.
My finding from here was that Intend 220m 2,3mm or Brakestuff discs would be quite okay upgrade to my current Shimano Saint with 203mm icetech rotors.
Anyone have solutions to pad/retainer clip rattle for your Hayes Dominions?
Just expand the pad spring out more before installing? That's all I do and never had rattling.
Any (real) idea why one side of the Saint master piston looks like it has been scratching itself to the point that the surface looks matte? The other side looks more glossy and normal.
It's being pushed to one side by the lever mechanism. The lever is not acting perfectly axialy but at a bit of an angle. I suppose.
FYI: Trickstuff finally released a high quality English bleeding videos https://www.youtube.com/@trickstuffgmbh It is good to see the extra caliper bleed step in video format.
As Primoz just said, clearly its being sideloaded. In addition to that, it might have to do with the surface finish on the inside of the master cylinder body. In the huge volume of discussion of the Shimano wandering bite point phenomenon, I saw it pointed out that Shimano master cylinder bodies are bare aluminum, while the claim was made that other more boutique brakes like Hopes are hard anodized after the master cylinder is bored, so they have a smoother internal surface. I could imagine that after a lot of cycles, especially if there is any oxidation that has formed, the Shimano may offer a significantly more abrasive surface.
Exactly. Watch how the push rod articulates through the stroke. There's a sudden direction change. If the ball joint interface between the pushrod and piston bind up, that piston is getting loaded incorrectly and won't travel parallel through the bore.
Has anyone thought (in theory atleast) about modifying a motorcycle brake master cylinder, like a Brembo or equivalent, for use on a downhill bike? What issues, aside from handlebar radius and the large brake fluid reservoir, might arise?
Post a reply to: Nerding out on Brakes shall we? Not another tech deraliment