MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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TimBud
Posts
530
Joined
2/29/2012
Location
GB
3/24/2024 7:34am
dolface wrote:
I don't think it's xenophobia as much as it is that they appear to be a straight rip-off off of Trickstuff. Will be interesting to see...

I don't think it's xenophobia as much as it is that they appear to be a straight rip-off off of Trickstuff.

Will be interesting to see if DT Swiss feels the same way (and does something about it).

That won’t matter.

BMW once tried to sue a Chinese manufacturer over an X5 clone. The Chinese courts laughed them out, saying that it didn’t look anything like a BMW X5

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Dave113
Posts
42
Joined
3/7/2018
Location
Lafayette, CO US
3/24/2024 7:40am
dolface wrote:
I don't think it's xenophobia as much as it is that they appear to be a straight rip-off off of Trickstuff. Will be interesting to see...

I don't think it's xenophobia as much as it is that they appear to be a straight rip-off off of Trickstuff.

Will be interesting to see if DT Swiss feels the same way (and does something about it).

TimBud wrote:
That won’t matter. BMW once tried to sue a Chinese manufacturer over an X5 clone. The Chinese courts laughed them out, saying that it didn’t look...

That won’t matter.

BMW once tried to sue a Chinese manufacturer over an X5 clone. The Chinese courts laughed them out, saying that it didn’t look anything like a BMW X5

China definitely doesn't care, but we can decide if we want to buy them. 

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3/24/2024 7:53am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2024 7:54am
Primoz wrote:
  Here's a first feeler. 
 

Here's a first feeler. 

It's impressive for sure and everyone I've talked to who has actual hands on experience seems to be thrilled with them. Actually kinda crazy how xenophobic...

It's impressive for sure and everyone I've talked to who has actual hands on experience seems to be thrilled with them. Actually kinda crazy how xenophobic people have been with these brakes the second they hear 'China' Wait till they find out where 90% of bike parts are made. Getting CNC'd brakes with apparently great performance at the current price point is a huge win for the consumer. I'm not paying Trickstuff money and I'm more than happy to try these since they cost less than my DH-R Evos

Dave113 wrote:
First, it's not "xenophobic" to try to avoid buying MIC goods if the issue is philosophical and political. China is our enemy, Xi is an authoritarian...

First, it's not "xenophobic" to try to avoid buying MIC goods if the issue is philosophical and political. China is our enemy, Xi is an authoritarian communist who commits genocide. It was a horrible mistake to partner with China and offshore our manufacturing to them in the first place. 

Second, Taiwan and China are not the same country despite what Xi thinks. There's a MASSIVE difference between the two and if you won't buy Taiwanese goods then that may have an underlying xenophobic reason. 

Last, Lewis is a direct rip off of another company's IP. Not everyone is ok with this. I'm not. If you are, why? So you can benefit from others' work without fair compensation? Cause that's EXACTLY what it comes down to. 

Getting CNC'd brakes with apparently great performance at the current price point is a huge win for the consumer. I'm not paying Trickstuff money and I'm more than happy to try these since they cost less than my DH-R Evos

You think you deserve Trickstuff's brakes without compensating them for their work. I'm not xenophobic, but you have some obvious ethical blind spots. 

Apparently Trickstuff let their patent lapse or there was some issue with their patent while this underwent development, not sure on the details but just a rumor I read online.

I've watched the teardown video and I wouldn't go out and say its a Trickstuff carbon copy.

Also not sure why you think I wouldn't buy parts from Taiwan? I'm just looking for the best product for the best price, I also just purchased the Lollipop driver set directly from 711L in Taiwan after hearing about them from the PB podcast.

While I don't ethically agree with everything China does, I'm also not gonna pretend that buying mountain bike brakes is somehow supporting genocide? America isn't exactly an angel either, so I'm not gonna think about the political impact of my mountain bike purchasing decisions haha. I see a great product at a great price point. Lewis seems to be offering a great product at a great price and you're just going off the rails here about Xi's genocide and how he runs the country? Dude I'm just looking for good brakes. If you don't want to buy them, then don't.

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Shinook
Posts
141
Joined
12/29/2015
Location
Asheville, NC US
3/24/2024 8:12am
Apparently Trickstuff let their patent lapse or there was some issue with their patent while this underwent development, not sure on the details but just a...

Apparently Trickstuff let their patent lapse or there was some issue with their patent while this underwent development, not sure on the details but just a rumor I read online.

I've watched the teardown video and I wouldn't go out and say its a Trickstuff carbon copy.

Also not sure why you think I wouldn't buy parts from Taiwan? I'm just looking for the best product for the best price, I also just purchased the Lollipop driver set directly from 711L in Taiwan after hearing about them from the PB podcast.

While I don't ethically agree with everything China does, I'm also not gonna pretend that buying mountain bike brakes is somehow supporting genocide? America isn't exactly an angel either, so I'm not gonna think about the political impact of my mountain bike purchasing decisions haha. I see a great product at a great price point. Lewis seems to be offering a great product at a great price and you're just going off the rails here about Xi's genocide and how he runs the country? Dude I'm just looking for good brakes. If you don't want to buy them, then don't.

What patent did Lewis violate that was held by Trickstuff? 

I'm in no way disputing they look identical and similar, but that doesn't constitute a patent violation. Some functional aspect of the brake would've needed to be duplicated that was patented by Trickstuff, there are only so many things unique they are doing (maybe the clamp or lever pivot?). If anything the Lewis design is slightly more innovative because it allows you to rotate the cam in the lever to adjust lever progression, something the Trickstuff brakes lack (although I'd find hysterical if they duplicated). 

"Something looks like something" isn't a patent issue by itself. It's clear where they ripped off Trickstuff aesthetics, but if they didn't copy any functional aspects of Trickstuffs design then there is nothing there from a patent perspective anyway. Brakes just aren't that complicated and there are only so many things they could do unique enough to really be functionally different enough for a patent. 

Don't get me wrong. I have no desire to own these brakes, not because of their country of origin, but I do agree the ripoff aesthetics gives me a bad vibe. I've owned Maximas and love what Trickstuff is doing, so supporting Lewis in this isn't something I can do, they should have been creative enough on their own to come up with their own aesthetics. That doesn't mean they violated any Trickstuff patents, though.

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radarr
Posts
9
Joined
4/8/2016
Location
Helena, MT US
3/24/2024 8:15am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2024 8:24am

And if we loop in 50 posts about how much strain our fingers will endure with Lewis' brake levers, we'll have come full circle.

My damper is dampening with excitement.

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3/24/2024 8:21am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2024 8:47am
Apparently Trickstuff let their patent lapse or there was some issue with their patent while this underwent development, not sure on the details but just a...

Apparently Trickstuff let their patent lapse or there was some issue with their patent while this underwent development, not sure on the details but just a rumor I read online.

I've watched the teardown video and I wouldn't go out and say its a Trickstuff carbon copy.

Also not sure why you think I wouldn't buy parts from Taiwan? I'm just looking for the best product for the best price, I also just purchased the Lollipop driver set directly from 711L in Taiwan after hearing about them from the PB podcast.

While I don't ethically agree with everything China does, I'm also not gonna pretend that buying mountain bike brakes is somehow supporting genocide? America isn't exactly an angel either, so I'm not gonna think about the political impact of my mountain bike purchasing decisions haha. I see a great product at a great price point. Lewis seems to be offering a great product at a great price and you're just going off the rails here about Xi's genocide and how he runs the country? Dude I'm just looking for good brakes. If you don't want to buy them, then don't.

Shinook wrote:
What patent did Lewis violate that was held by Trickstuff?  I'm in no way disputing they look identical and similar, but that doesn't constitute a patent...

What patent did Lewis violate that was held by Trickstuff? 

I'm in no way disputing they look identical and similar, but that doesn't constitute a patent violation. Some functional aspect of the brake would've needed to be duplicated that was patented by Trickstuff, there are only so many things unique they are doing (maybe the clamp or lever pivot?). If anything the Lewis design is slightly more innovative because it allows you to rotate the cam in the lever to adjust lever progression, something the Trickstuff brakes lack (although I'd find hysterical if they duplicated). 

"Something looks like something" isn't a patent issue by itself. It's clear where they ripped off Trickstuff aesthetics, but if they didn't copy any functional aspects of Trickstuffs design then there is nothing there from a patent perspective anyway. Brakes just aren't that complicated and there are only so many things they could do unique enough to really be functionally different enough for a patent. 

Don't get me wrong. I have no desire to own these brakes, not because of their country of origin, but I do agree the ripoff aesthetics gives me a bad vibe. I've owned Maximas and love what Trickstuff is doing, so supporting Lewis in this isn't something I can do, they should have been creative enough on their own to come up with their own aesthetics. That doesn't mean they violated any Trickstuff patents, though.

While it's abundantly clear Lewis took copied a lot of the aesthetics from Trickstuff, it does seem like the inner-workings of the brake are Lewis's own. I'd love to try Trickstuff brakes but there is no way I would ever pay $1500+ for brakes in my life so I'm happy to try these. And I'm not trying to say these should be as good as Trickstuff, for the price I'm looking with something with slightly improved feel/power over my TRP's And these can potentially offer that while looking a lot better. As ethically ugly as this looks, we consumers are ultimately the winners in this product arms race.  

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12
Ceecee
Posts
22
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Location
Tucson, AZ US
3/24/2024 9:37am

Maybe they're just covering up a wate bottle cage. That's pretty cutting edge on a DH bike. 

Freeride e-bikepacking--surprise!

3
nskerb
Posts
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3/3/2020
Location
Kelso, WA US
3/24/2024 1:16pm

I’m xenophobic for not wanting shitty knock off brakes made in a sweatshop? Ight cool lol. 

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chriskief
Posts
728
Joined
4/15/2017
Location
New York, NY US
3/24/2024 1:36pm

Some Fox RAD bits on Asa's Frameworks...

untitled-58.jpg?VersionId=qyTkG8C96OJ14 WSKftgbHTO

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chriskief
Posts
728
Joined
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Location
New York, NY US
3/24/2024 1:46pm
chriskief wrote:
Some Fox RAD bits on Asa's Frameworks...

Some Fox RAD bits on Asa's Frameworks...

untitled-58.jpg?VersionId=qyTkG8C96OJ14 WSKftgbHTO

Another angle of the lever.

434030992 1335244057151380 2611921144311636401 n.jpg?VersionId=xTY9MU9Kbv5ZMe63GUpyq5yG.n

Between this and Flight Attendant on the Trek bikes, looks like electronics are about to hit DH.

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3/24/2024 2:09pm
chriskief wrote:
Some Fox RAD bits on Asa's Frameworks...

Some Fox RAD bits on Asa's Frameworks...

untitled-58.jpg?VersionId=qyTkG8C96OJ14 WSKftgbHTO

chriskief wrote:
Another angle of the lever. Between this and Flight Attendant on the Trek bikes, looks like electronics are about to hit DH.

Another angle of the lever.

434030992 1335244057151380 2611921144311636401 n.jpg?VersionId=xTY9MU9Kbv5ZMe63GUpyq5yG.n

Between this and Flight Attendant on the Trek bikes, looks like electronics are about to hit DH.

I wonder if that's some sort of electronic actuator/piston or if it's something used for telemetry 

1
chriskief
Posts
728
Joined
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Location
New York, NY US
3/24/2024 2:16pm
chriskief wrote:
Some Fox RAD bits on Asa's Frameworks...

Some Fox RAD bits on Asa's Frameworks...

untitled-58.jpg?VersionId=qyTkG8C96OJ14 WSKftgbHTO

chriskief wrote:
Another angle of the lever. Between this and Flight Attendant on the Trek bikes, looks like electronics are about to hit DH.

Another angle of the lever.

434030992 1335244057151380 2611921144311636401 n.jpg?VersionId=xTY9MU9Kbv5ZMe63GUpyq5yG.n

Between this and Flight Attendant on the Trek bikes, looks like electronics are about to hit DH.

I wonder if that's some sort of electronic actuator/piston or if it's something used for telemetry 

It's this...

 

 

3/24/2024 2:21pm Edited Date/Time 3/24/2024 2:22pm
chriskief wrote:
Another angle of the lever. Between this and Flight Attendant on the Trek bikes, looks like electronics are about to hit DH.

Another angle of the lever.

434030992 1335244057151380 2611921144311636401 n.jpg?VersionId=xTY9MU9Kbv5ZMe63GUpyq5yG.n

Between this and Flight Attendant on the Trek bikes, looks like electronics are about to hit DH.

I wonder if that's some sort of electronic actuator/piston or if it's something used for telemetry 

chriskief wrote:
It's this...    

It's this...

 

 

I'm talking about the giant black part sticking off of the brake calipers.

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chriskief
Posts
728
Joined
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Location
New York, NY US
3/24/2024 2:27pm

I wonder if that's some sort of electronic actuator/piston or if it's something used for telemetry 

chriskief wrote:
It's this...    

It's this...

 

 

I'm talking about the giant black part sticking off of the brake calipers.

It's a sensor of some sort. It's shown in that video I linked to.

1
3/24/2024 3:29pm
chriskief wrote:
It's this...    

It's this...

 

 

I'm talking about the giant black part sticking off of the brake calipers.

chriskief wrote:
It's a sensor of some sort. It's shown in that video I linked to.

It's a sensor of some sort. It's shown in that video I linked to.

Some exciting tech coming for sure. As if AXS drivetrains weren't expensive now I'll need to worry about Electronic Fox suspension Grinning Excited for it nonetheless

1
3/24/2024 6:27pm

Anther look at the new TRP Levers.

 

648a46f0f0c6c271add4c12bde4ea632d2264e2a6cb48edd68227d9dfd6ffa91

10
2supple
Posts
99
Joined
1/23/2022
Location
Denver, CO US
3/24/2024 8:28pm Edited Date/Time 3/24/2024 8:31pm

I'm talking about the giant black part sticking off of the brake calipers.

chriskief wrote:
It's a sensor of some sort. It's shown in that video I linked to.

It's a sensor of some sort. It's shown in that video I linked to.

Some exciting tech coming for sure. As if AXS drivetrains weren't expensive now I'll need to worry about Electronic Fox suspension  Excited for it nonetheless

Some exciting tech coming for sure. As if AXS drivetrains weren't expensive now I'll need to worry about Electronic Fox suspension Grinning Excited for it nonetheless

Curious to see Fox's implementation. Not trying to bash Rockshox but flight attendant seems like a flop so far. Maybe took it too far with the front fork stuff. Honestly who needs/wants to firm up their Zeb. Too complicated for marginal gains.  

 

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11
1llumA
Posts
213
Joined
3/11/2020
Location
CA
3/24/2024 8:34pm

Interesting pad contact adjustment à la Hope but also a single bolt near the master cylinder split clamp like current shimano lever instead of the older shimano split clamp with the single bolt under the bar.

1
3/24/2024 8:45pm
1llumA wrote:
Interesting pad contact adjustment à la Hope but also a single bolt near the master cylinder split clamp like current shimano lever instead of the older...

Interesting pad contact adjustment à la Hope but also a single bolt near the master cylinder split clamp like current shimano lever instead of the older shimano split clamp with the single bolt under the bar.

Probably because the current range of TRP adapters absolutely suck.

3
newuser123
Posts
1
Joined
3/23/2024
Location
North Van, BC CA
3/24/2024 9:19pm

lol they deleted my pic of the new altitude. hahahah. Just a picture of a bike in a parking lot with tape on it. Of all the spied pics here they delete that one? lol

20
Karabuka
Posts
432
Joined
12/1/2011
Location
SI
3/24/2024 11:40pm

Heard from a friend of a friend that fox distributors have already received technical documentation of the new dampers so the release should not be far off. 

4
Evil96
Posts
802
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE IT
3/24/2024 11:41pm
chriskief wrote:
Some Fox RAD bits on Asa's Frameworks...

Some Fox RAD bits on Asa's Frameworks...

untitled-58.jpg?VersionId=qyTkG8C96OJ14 WSKftgbHTO

chriskief wrote:
Another angle of the lever. Between this and Flight Attendant on the Trek bikes, looks like electronics are about to hit DH.

Another angle of the lever.

434030992 1335244057151380 2611921144311636401 n.jpg?VersionId=xTY9MU9Kbv5ZMe63GUpyq5yG.n

Between this and Flight Attendant on the Trek bikes, looks like electronics are about to hit DH.

and new enves nobody noticed

4
3/25/2024 4:15am
chriskief wrote:
It's a sensor of some sort. It's shown in that video I linked to.

It's a sensor of some sort. It's shown in that video I linked to.

Some exciting tech coming for sure. As if AXS drivetrains weren't expensive now I'll need to worry about Electronic Fox suspension  Excited for it nonetheless

Some exciting tech coming for sure. As if AXS drivetrains weren't expensive now I'll need to worry about Electronic Fox suspension Grinning Excited for it nonetheless

2supple wrote:
Curious to see Fox's implementation. Not trying to bash Rockshox but flight attendant seems like a flop so far. Maybe took it too far with the...

Curious to see Fox's implementation. Not trying to bash Rockshox but flight attendant seems like a flop so far. Maybe took it too far with the front fork stuff. Honestly who needs/wants to firm up their Zeb. Too complicated for marginal gains.  

 

IIRC Fox was using a sensor on the front fork to adjust the rear shock, but not making changes to the fork.

1
1
sevenz
Posts
30
Joined
11/17/2022
Location
White River Junction, VT US
3/25/2024 4:46am
dolface wrote:
The front didn't fall off this one so must be from a different batch than BK's?    

The front didn't fall off this one so must be from a different batch than BK's?

 

 

dknapton wrote:
Must be a different version? I think Dane has had his for a while, and yet Ryan Griffiths just got one recently im pretty sure, but...

Must be a different version? I think Dane has had his for a while, and yet Ryan Griffiths just got one recently im pretty sure, but i thought i saw photos of him riding on the old one at this event


They both seemed to be riding both during practice...and I'm pretty sure Ryan raced his old bike.  

1
3/25/2024 5:58am

Guys, let's the lawyers discuss about IP and stuff, let's just enjoy the parts we are getting.

Zrace, WestBiking, ZTTO, Akantor, Tanke, Onirii, Rong Lun, III Pro are all different from each other. no one looks exact carbon copy of the main brands.

I've got a pair of RongLun brake levers that look similar to magura or older shimanos, but have a banjo at the bottom to redirect the hose under the bar, 4 piston shimano calipers at the front, 4 piston TRP slate at the back, SS hoses, 2.3mm thick ZTTO disks, Kingstop metalic pads and MOTUL 2,5w oil. They are BRILLIANT. Light actuation, zero friction until the pads contact the disks, heaps of power and modulation. Might get some mavens calipers in the future to use with 180mm rotors on a downhill bike.

Another thing about taiwan and china, the US would not give a dead shit about taiwan if there was no silicon being produced there. Just look at how Haiti has succumbed to guerrilas, how hamas has taken power of Palestine, how Iemen is controlled by terrorist group Houthi, and so on.

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24
mickey
Posts
239
Joined
2/19/2010
Location
Roanoke, VA US
3/25/2024 6:15am

Let’s please keep global geopolitics out of the tech rumors thread.

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1
junkbox
Posts
8
Joined
3/19/2024
Location
Mt. Aetna, MD US
3/25/2024 7:00am
junkbox wrote:
I don't get all the fuss about the diapers. Prototypes being tested/validated in public, while heavily camouflaged, is common in all industries. It protects under-development IP...

I don't get all the fuss about the diapers. Prototypes being tested/validated in public, while heavily camouflaged, is common in all industries. It protects under-development IP and also allows less-than-production-level parts to be used without the scrutiny of the public eye. We built an entire bunker to hide our test vehicles when they weren't on the road, and when they were on the road they had zebra camo and fake grilles, etc. It's great for concealing parts that are being rapidly developed, especially when some iterations might only be used for a single test cycle. 

Bunkers for cars? I know this is a mtb thread but you got a wiki link for this car testing bunker? Sounds cool. 

It's slightly less exciting than it sounds. The "bunker" was just for datalogging and tuning start-stop/idle/stationary emissions/etc., basically anything that could be tested without a road speed. It was a effectively a several acre area surrounded by a wall of 2-high stacked shipping containers. Anything that saw road time was heavily camo'd, like these bikes.

1
nskerb
Posts
337
Joined
3/3/2020
Location
Kelso, WA US
3/25/2024 7:08am
NotMeAtAll wrote:
Guys, let's the lawyers discuss about IP and stuff, let's just enjoy the parts we are getting. Zrace, WestBiking, ZTTO, Akantor, Tanke, Onirii, Rong Lun, III...

Guys, let's the lawyers discuss about IP and stuff, let's just enjoy the parts we are getting.

Zrace, WestBiking, ZTTO, Akantor, Tanke, Onirii, Rong Lun, III Pro are all different from each other. no one looks exact carbon copy of the main brands.

I've got a pair of RongLun brake levers that look similar to magura or older shimanos, but have a banjo at the bottom to redirect the hose under the bar, 4 piston shimano calipers at the front, 4 piston TRP slate at the back, SS hoses, 2.3mm thick ZTTO disks, Kingstop metalic pads and MOTUL 2,5w oil. They are BRILLIANT. Light actuation, zero friction until the pads contact the disks, heaps of power and modulation. Might get some mavens calipers in the future to use with 180mm rotors on a downhill bike.

Another thing about taiwan and china, the US would not give a dead shit about taiwan if there was no silicon being produced there. Just look at how Haiti has succumbed to guerrilas, how hamas has taken power of Palestine, how Iemen is controlled by terrorist group Houthi, and so on.

*asks for guys to only let lawyers discuss IP.

 

*Proceeds to discuss geopolitical situations across the globe.

21
amaranth
Posts
176
Joined
10/19/2023
Location
Nutley, NJ US
3/25/2024 7:13am

What really bothers me is that Lewis brakes CHOSE to MIMIC the way Trickstuff brakes look. Hope/Trickstuff/Intend/Sram/Shimano/Hayes/TRP all look pretty distinguishable, even between some of their own models. It's not how brakes are made is a secret anymore. You have a lever that pushes a piston that pushes fluid that pushes another set of pistons. Sure you can add cams here, adjustments there, play with leverage ratio, fancy cnc, parts, it doesn't really change the way brakes work fundamentally. Not discrediting the manufacturing of these brakes in any way. For a set of the more pricy Lewis brakes you can get just about anything that isn't super bougie like Trickstuff/Intend. So yeah, I don't really see a reason why someone should own these, unless you have to have something that resembles a Trickstuff and you don't have the money, or you just really like the way Lewis sounds or the feeling of these brakes just wowed you out of the world (highly unlikely). 

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