Sorry for the delay, I missed your reply. Formula was hinting in the comments on PB ( https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-formulas-air-shock-for-enduro-bikes.html ) about it, and I had someone who used...
Yeah, saw that article back then, totally forgot about it! The dc enduro fork market is a niche only MRP are enjoying till now (and may...
Yeah, saw that article back then, totally forgot about it! The dc enduro fork market is a niche only MRP are enjoying till now (and may be RS as the Boxxer was lightish enough to pass onto some of the porkier enduro builds). But if more brands start making such forks, my guess is the 38mm sc forks would die off!
As stated earlier in this thread, i’d love for the sudden Manitou Mezzer’s 40% discount to be the explanation behind a next gen that has a dc-version, kinda like a modern dc Travis!
Maybe I'm missing something,
The previous gen boxxer was well within weight for those that wanted a DC enduro fork wasnt it, same with a Dorado?
Like you could trip over the Boxxers for sale on PB if thats the route you wanted to go, and it could be dropped to 180mm, with a lower stack height than the ZEB (so in theory you could run more travel without negatively affecting geo). Dont get me wrong, I toyed with the idea for a Boxxer on my Spire, but the trade-offs for my use case didnt really make sense at the time.
We live in a world where long travel SC forks are so good, I cant see them dying off in favour of "in-between" DC forks. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll put 6 beer (4 tall cans) that we dont see that shift in the next couple years.
Did anyone like the DC Travis? We couldnt give those things away. Pretty sure I have 2 of them in a box in storage somewhere
In Northern California theyre everywhere. More than regular bikes. A majority of them are people riding them that could/should be riding a normal bike. We see...
In Northern California theyre everywhere. More than regular bikes. A majority of them are people riding them that could/should be riding a normal bike. We see the often 50+ year which is cool. But it makes me think “JFC” seeing more 20-30 year olds on them. They are most definitely not using at a training tool going stupid fast on climbs and not breaking a sweat.
In Northern California theyre everywhere. More than regular bikes. A majority of them are people riding them that could/should be riding a normal bike. We see...
In Northern California theyre everywhere. More than regular bikes. A majority of them are people riding them that could/should be riding a normal bike. We see the often 50+ year which is cool. But it makes me think “JFC” seeing more 20-30 year olds on them. They are most definitely not using at a training tool going stupid fast on climbs and not breaking a sweat.
Am I the only person who cannot gather up an ounce of excitement for sram maven brakes? WC DH riders were on guides before the new codes came out. The codes are sweet, saints have always been awesome, the new Hayes brakes sound pretty good too. Idk man seems like we are dissecting a product that doesn’t really need to exist.
Have both in the garage right now. I’d say the maven has slightly more breakaway force, but requires significantly less force at the bite point for...
Have both in the garage right now. I’d say the maven has slightly more breakaway force, but requires significantly less force at the bite point for good power up until they lock the wheel quite easily.
That's a very good description of them vs a code 👌
Sorry for the delay, I missed your reply. Formula was hinting in the comments on PB ( https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-formulas-air-shock-for-enduro-bikes.html ) about it, and I had someone who used...
Yeah, saw that article back then, totally forgot about it! The dc enduro fork market is a niche only MRP are enjoying till now (and may...
Yeah, saw that article back then, totally forgot about it! The dc enduro fork market is a niche only MRP are enjoying till now (and may be RS as the Boxxer was lightish enough to pass onto some of the porkier enduro builds). But if more brands start making such forks, my guess is the 38mm sc forks would die off!
As stated earlier in this thread, i’d love for the sudden Manitou Mezzer’s 40% discount to be the explanation behind a next gen that has a dc-version, kinda like a modern dc Travis!
Maybe I'm missing something,
The previous gen boxxer was well within weight for those that wanted a DC enduro fork wasnt it, same with a Dorado...
Maybe I'm missing something,
The previous gen boxxer was well within weight for those that wanted a DC enduro fork wasnt it, same with a Dorado?
Like you could trip over the Boxxers for sale on PB if thats the route you wanted to go, and it could be dropped to 180mm, with a lower stack height than the ZEB (so in theory you could run more travel without negatively affecting geo). Dont get me wrong, I toyed with the idea for a Boxxer on my Spire, but the trade-offs for my use case didnt really make sense at the time.
We live in a world where long travel SC forks are so good, I cant see them dying off in favour of "in-between" DC forks. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll put 6 beer (4 tall cans) that we dont see that shift in the next couple years.
Did anyone like the DC Travis? We couldnt give those things away. Pretty sure I have 2 of them in a box in storage somewhere
Boxxer was 2.6ish kg, sure light enough, but a 2.3kg dc fork would be even better! The previous 36mm Dorado (not the newest 37mm one) is several grams under 3kg - i know, i have one mounted on the front of my bike!). Both are 20mm axles, i like it more than the 15mm standart, but 15mm is the norm in everything except for dh-bikes. If you don’t have a hub like Hope where you could switch just the end caps, then upgrading to such a fork would require a front wheel as well (or at least a hub). As for the dc Travis - this is the fork that hooked me to Manitou like a junkie to cocaine! 🤣 I still remember that friend who lent me his Travis for a weekend more than 15yr ago with the words: “now i’m gonna make you a Manitou fan for life!” (Of course we’re talking about the last one, with the Intrinsic compression - superb performance, trouble-free). That’s why i think Manitou might do a dc-Mezzer - they had a sc Travis and a dc Travis at the same time!
Yeah, saw that article back then, totally forgot about it! The dc enduro fork market is a niche only MRP are enjoying till now (and may...
Yeah, saw that article back then, totally forgot about it! The dc enduro fork market is a niche only MRP are enjoying till now (and may be RS as the Boxxer was lightish enough to pass onto some of the porkier enduro builds). But if more brands start making such forks, my guess is the 38mm sc forks would die off!
As stated earlier in this thread, i’d love for the sudden Manitou Mezzer’s 40% discount to be the explanation behind a next gen that has a dc-version, kinda like a modern dc Travis!
Maybe I'm missing something,
The previous gen boxxer was well within weight for those that wanted a DC enduro fork wasnt it, same with a Dorado...
Maybe I'm missing something,
The previous gen boxxer was well within weight for those that wanted a DC enduro fork wasnt it, same with a Dorado?
Like you could trip over the Boxxers for sale on PB if thats the route you wanted to go, and it could be dropped to 180mm, with a lower stack height than the ZEB (so in theory you could run more travel without negatively affecting geo). Dont get me wrong, I toyed with the idea for a Boxxer on my Spire, but the trade-offs for my use case didnt really make sense at the time.
We live in a world where long travel SC forks are so good, I cant see them dying off in favour of "in-between" DC forks. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll put 6 beer (4 tall cans) that we dont see that shift in the next couple years.
Did anyone like the DC Travis? We couldnt give those things away. Pretty sure I have 2 of them in a box in storage somewhere
Boxxer was 2.6ish kg, sure light enough, but a 2.3kg dc fork would be even better! The previous 36mm Dorado (not the newest 37mm one) is...
Boxxer was 2.6ish kg, sure light enough, but a 2.3kg dc fork would be even better! The previous 36mm Dorado (not the newest 37mm one) is several grams under 3kg - i know, i have one mounted on the front of my bike!). Both are 20mm axles, i like it more than the 15mm standart, but 15mm is the norm in everything except for dh-bikes. If you don’t have a hub like Hope where you could switch just the end caps, then upgrading to such a fork would require a front wheel as well (or at least a hub). As for the dc Travis - this is the fork that hooked me to Manitou like a junkie to cocaine! 🤣 I still remember that friend who lent me his Travis for a weekend more than 15yr ago with the words: “now i’m gonna make you a Manitou fan for life!” (Of course we’re talking about the last one, with the Intrinsic compression - superb performance, trouble-free). That’s why i think Manitou might do a dc-Mezzer - they had a sc Travis and a dc Travis at the same time!
What i don’t understand is how Trickstuff puts so much power in the Maxima in its size and Sram needs even bigger pistons and more material...
What i don’t understand is how Trickstuff puts so much power in the Maxima in its size and Sram needs even bigger pistons and more material (more weight) to try and match them (which is yet to be verified).
As for levers, am i the only one that finds the new Sram master cylinders/levers design bad to the eye? Being so close to the bar and in the same time longish makes the handlebar look much shorter and uglier!
The other part of the equation is master cylinder piston diameter. The smaller it is the more leverage it has over the pistons in the caliper. Think of it like you had interchangeable dropouts on your bike and you added 100mm to the rear end of your bike, that’s going to increase the leverage on the shock. The lower the amount of fluid moved for the same amount of piston movement/lever movement the more hydraulic leverage the master has. Hayes use a 9mm bore in the dominions (as far as I know) which is why they have very high hydraulic leverage with 4 x 17mm pistons. I’ve seen that it’s higher than cura 4 which has 4 x 18mm pistons. It’s actually simple maths once you know the equation. Not that it’s simple to make brakes or anything but the ratios are not complicated, provided you don’t have a variable rate linkage in there. So ipso facto the mavens probably have a largeish master and enormous pistons, so that it has a lot of fluid in the system for heat performance, and the huge pistons are required to increase the ratio. Larger piston means more seal surface area, which means more friction though, hence the wank about seals. It’s all a compromise and the best brakes make the best compromises. Cough* Hayes dominion is the best * cough
@CascadeComponents any thoughts on potentially producing an aftermarket set of cams for the Mavens? I feel like some of the complaints people have had could be tuned out on your end. I've been running your cams in my Codes for a season or so and really enjoy the advanced bite point.
Agreed on the general consensus (I think) that Dale's Maven review was partially flawed as he cut hoses and installed without bleeding originally and didn't follow instructions. I'm not suggesting that he's totally wrong in his findings, but to be taken seriously as a reviewer you can't be cutting hoses and not bleeding brakes/not following manual instructions and planning to not start out using their system rotors. Yes, end customers will do all these incorrect things, but since when have reviewers done the product review doing things wrong because 'that's how the average person will do it'??
@CascadeComponents any thoughts on potentially producing an aftermarket set of cams for the Mavens? I feel like some of the complaints people have had could be...
@CascadeComponents any thoughts on potentially producing an aftermarket set of cams for the Mavens? I feel like some of the complaints people have had could be tuned out on your end. I've been running your cams in my Codes for a season or so and really enjoy the advanced bite point.
Definitely going to take a look at them. Hard to say what all will really be possible until can see what the pad retract numbers are. There are some specific things I want to try that could work out quite well knock on wood.
In Northern California theyre everywhere. More than regular bikes. A majority of them are people riding them that could/should be riding a normal bike. We see...
In Northern California theyre everywhere. More than regular bikes. A majority of them are people riding them that could/should be riding a normal bike. We see the often 50+ year which is cool. But it makes me think “JFC” seeing more 20-30 year olds on them. They are most definitely not using at a training tool going stupid fast on climbs and not breaking a sweat.
Maybe I'm missing something,
The previous gen boxxer was well within weight for those that wanted a DC enduro fork wasnt it, same with a Dorado...
Maybe I'm missing something,
The previous gen boxxer was well within weight for those that wanted a DC enduro fork wasnt it, same with a Dorado?
Like you could trip over the Boxxers for sale on PB if thats the route you wanted to go, and it could be dropped to 180mm, with a lower stack height than the ZEB (so in theory you could run more travel without negatively affecting geo). Dont get me wrong, I toyed with the idea for a Boxxer on my Spire, but the trade-offs for my use case didnt really make sense at the time.
We live in a world where long travel SC forks are so good, I cant see them dying off in favour of "in-between" DC forks. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll put 6 beer (4 tall cans) that we dont see that shift in the next couple years.
Did anyone like the DC Travis? We couldnt give those things away. Pretty sure I have 2 of them in a box in storage somewhere
Boxxer was 2.6ish kg, sure light enough, but a 2.3kg dc fork would be even better! The previous 36mm Dorado (not the newest 37mm one) is...
Boxxer was 2.6ish kg, sure light enough, but a 2.3kg dc fork would be even better! The previous 36mm Dorado (not the newest 37mm one) is several grams under 3kg - i know, i have one mounted on the front of my bike!). Both are 20mm axles, i like it more than the 15mm standart, but 15mm is the norm in everything except for dh-bikes. If you don’t have a hub like Hope where you could switch just the end caps, then upgrading to such a fork would require a front wheel as well (or at least a hub). As for the dc Travis - this is the fork that hooked me to Manitou like a junkie to cocaine! 🤣 I still remember that friend who lent me his Travis for a weekend more than 15yr ago with the words: “now i’m gonna make you a Manitou fan for life!” (Of course we’re talking about the last one, with the Intrinsic compression - superb performance, trouble-free). That’s why i think Manitou might do a dc-Mezzer - they had a sc Travis and a dc Travis at the same time!
Oh, it’s on! 😁 Gotta make a screenshot of it, though! In the beginning of 2026 i’m either drinking your beer and saluting you, or i’m sending you the cans and expecting a drunk happy photo! 😂
What i don’t understand is how Trickstuff puts so much power in the Maxima in its size and Sram needs even bigger pistons and more material...
What i don’t understand is how Trickstuff puts so much power in the Maxima in its size and Sram needs even bigger pistons and more material (more weight) to try and match them (which is yet to be verified).
As for levers, am i the only one that finds the new Sram master cylinders/levers design bad to the eye? Being so close to the bar and in the same time longish makes the handlebar look much shorter and uglier!
The other part of the equation is master cylinder piston diameter. The smaller it is the more leverage it has over the pistons in the caliper...
The other part of the equation is master cylinder piston diameter. The smaller it is the more leverage it has over the pistons in the caliper. Think of it like you had interchangeable dropouts on your bike and you added 100mm to the rear end of your bike, that’s going to increase the leverage on the shock. The lower the amount of fluid moved for the same amount of piston movement/lever movement the more hydraulic leverage the master has. Hayes use a 9mm bore in the dominions (as far as I know) which is why they have very high hydraulic leverage with 4 x 17mm pistons. I’ve seen that it’s higher than cura 4 which has 4 x 18mm pistons. It’s actually simple maths once you know the equation. Not that it’s simple to make brakes or anything but the ratios are not complicated, provided you don’t have a variable rate linkage in there. So ipso facto the mavens probably have a largeish master and enormous pistons, so that it has a lot of fluid in the system for heat performance, and the huge pistons are required to increase the ratio. Larger piston means more seal surface area, which means more friction though, hence the wank about seals. It’s all a compromise and the best brakes make the best compromises. Cough* Hayes dominion is the best * cough
Agreed on the cough-cough sentence! 😁 Got them and started raving about them before everybody else went berserk about them! Given i’m a known brake-dragger, i was thinking for ways to improve them (hoses, pads, brake fluid, big rotors), but then i put them through hell and they performed flawlessly, so no need for tuning.
Am i understanding correctly: if we don’t account for heat performance, durability - would Hayes have had an even higher hydraulic leverage with an 8mm bore theoretically?
Haven't seen it posted but maybe missed it, new YT Tues from Jack Moir's YouTube... well, at least the rear end of it.
Haven't seen it posted but maybe missed it, new YT Tues from Jack Moir's YouTube... well, at least the rear end of it.
It was posted earlier in the thread, after this prototype a newer one appeared with an idler peaking out of the cover suggesting they are experimenting with a high-pivot!
What i don’t understand is how Trickstuff puts so much power in the Maxima in its size and Sram needs even bigger pistons and more material...
What i don’t understand is how Trickstuff puts so much power in the Maxima in its size and Sram needs even bigger pistons and more material (more weight) to try and match them (which is yet to be verified).
As for levers, am i the only one that finds the new Sram master cylinders/levers design bad to the eye? Being so close to the bar and in the same time longish makes the handlebar look much shorter and uglier!
The other part of the equation is master cylinder piston diameter. The smaller it is the more leverage it has over the pistons in the caliper...
The other part of the equation is master cylinder piston diameter. The smaller it is the more leverage it has over the pistons in the caliper. Think of it like you had interchangeable dropouts on your bike and you added 100mm to the rear end of your bike, that’s going to increase the leverage on the shock. The lower the amount of fluid moved for the same amount of piston movement/lever movement the more hydraulic leverage the master has. Hayes use a 9mm bore in the dominions (as far as I know) which is why they have very high hydraulic leverage with 4 x 17mm pistons. I’ve seen that it’s higher than cura 4 which has 4 x 18mm pistons. It’s actually simple maths once you know the equation. Not that it’s simple to make brakes or anything but the ratios are not complicated, provided you don’t have a variable rate linkage in there. So ipso facto the mavens probably have a largeish master and enormous pistons, so that it has a lot of fluid in the system for heat performance, and the huge pistons are required to increase the ratio. Larger piston means more seal surface area, which means more friction though, hence the wank about seals. It’s all a compromise and the best brakes make the best compromises. Cough* Hayes dominion is the best * cough
Agreed on the cough-cough sentence! 😁 Got them and started raving about them before everybody else went berserk about them! Given i’m a known brake-dragger, i...
Agreed on the cough-cough sentence! 😁 Got them and started raving about them before everybody else went berserk about them! Given i’m a known brake-dragger, i was thinking for ways to improve them (hoses, pads, brake fluid, big rotors), but then i put them through hell and they performed flawlessly, so no need for tuning.
Am i understanding correctly: if we don’t account for heat performance, durability - would Hayes have had an even higher hydraulic leverage with an 8mm bore theoretically?
My knowledge is superficial at best, but on an MTB my money would be on excessive lever throw and insufficient rollback to go that much further down that path, successfully. Probably need to go down the sram path of bigger pads with higher surface area and correspondingly higher friction (I assume, ignoring any point load considerations). Based on tidbits I’ve read from Jimmy at cascade, post mount packaging is a major limitation.
In Northern California theyre everywhere. More than regular bikes. A majority of them are people riding them that could/should be riding a normal bike. We see...
In Northern California theyre everywhere. More than regular bikes. A majority of them are people riding them that could/should be riding a normal bike. We see the often 50+ year which is cool. But it makes me think “JFC” seeing more 20-30 year olds on them. They are most definitely not using at a training tool going stupid fast on climbs and not breaking a sweat.
Yeah, technically nothing wrong with it. Just makes me sad.
Could be worse. They could be doing nothing.
I don’t get the whole e-bikes are bad sentiment. Sure I agree, you will get a bigger workout on a regular bike. for an overweight guy like me who is dead by the time he makes it to the top, to the point where on the fun part ( the descend ) I’m just too rooted and things get sketchy , being able to get some assistance up the hill to then actually enjoy the downhill means I’m actually gonna do it more times and still get what would be a bloody good work out for me. enjoyment means I Keep doing it rather than give up because the uphill is just too tiring to enjoy.. . slowly I’ll be getting fitter and healthier.. In time the assistance I need can reduce.
If anything I see e-bikes as opening up more people to do exercise because they take away some of the horrible bits ( for people who don’t love the burn ) and still allows a decent workout. if skinny fit people want to ebike then great do it, have fun , get up the hill quick and enjoy the descends. They probably have other forms of exercise keeping them fit. Why feel sad.
just my opinion and I’ll proudly ride both an ebike and analogue ..
Could be worse. They could be doing nothing. :)
I don’t get the whole e-bikes are bad sentiment. Sure I agree, you will get a bigger...
Could be worse. They could be doing nothing.
I don’t get the whole e-bikes are bad sentiment. Sure I agree, you will get a bigger workout on a regular bike. for an overweight guy like me who is dead by the time he makes it to the top, to the point where on the fun part ( the descend ) I’m just too rooted and things get sketchy , being able to get some assistance up the hill to then actually enjoy the downhill means I’m actually gonna do it more times and still get what would be a bloody good work out for me. enjoyment means I Keep doing it rather than give up because the uphill is just too tiring to enjoy.. . slowly I’ll be getting fitter and healthier.. In time the assistance I need can reduce.
If anything I see e-bikes as opening up more people to do exercise because they take away some of the horrible bits ( for people who don’t love the burn ) and still allows a decent workout. if skinny fit people want to ebike then great do it, have fun , get up the hill quick and enjoy the descends. They probably have other forms of exercise keeping them fit. Why feel sad.
just my opinion and I’ll proudly ride both an ebike and analogue ..
I guess I should explain my sentiment. Im a personal trainer and I live in a small town. I see a lot of the same people a lot. Like I said, there are the occasional 50+ year olds who ride a lot with them which is really cool. Or the occasional bigger set guy who probably would not be out riding otherwise. But what Im seeing a lot of people my age (25 or younger) getting really lazy, buying an ebike, never breaking a sweat, and getting fatter. Yeah theyre fun. So are dirtbikes. Sure I could go faster. But I dont need one. I enjoy a climb. Makes a descent that much better.
Also, it makes me worried because of the environment. Seems like these bikes get their batteries or motors recalled on a weekly basis. But thats a whole another can of worms.
people can have them and have fun. Just makes me think we are 1 step closer to Wall-E though.
Could be worse. They could be doing nothing. :)
I don’t get the whole e-bikes are bad sentiment. Sure I agree, you will get a bigger...
Could be worse. They could be doing nothing.
I don’t get the whole e-bikes are bad sentiment. Sure I agree, you will get a bigger workout on a regular bike. for an overweight guy like me who is dead by the time he makes it to the top, to the point where on the fun part ( the descend ) I’m just too rooted and things get sketchy , being able to get some assistance up the hill to then actually enjoy the downhill means I’m actually gonna do it more times and still get what would be a bloody good work out for me. enjoyment means I Keep doing it rather than give up because the uphill is just too tiring to enjoy.. . slowly I’ll be getting fitter and healthier.. In time the assistance I need can reduce.
If anything I see e-bikes as opening up more people to do exercise because they take away some of the horrible bits ( for people who don’t love the burn ) and still allows a decent workout. if skinny fit people want to ebike then great do it, have fun , get up the hill quick and enjoy the descends. They probably have other forms of exercise keeping them fit. Why feel sad.
just my opinion and I’ll proudly ride both an ebike and analogue ..
I guess I should explain my sentiment. Im a personal trainer and I live in a small town. I see a lot of the same people...
I guess I should explain my sentiment. Im a personal trainer and I live in a small town. I see a lot of the same people a lot. Like I said, there are the occasional 50+ year olds who ride a lot with them which is really cool. Or the occasional bigger set guy who probably would not be out riding otherwise. But what Im seeing a lot of people my age (25 or younger) getting really lazy, buying an ebike, never breaking a sweat, and getting fatter. Yeah theyre fun. So are dirtbikes. Sure I could go faster. But I dont need one. I enjoy a climb. Makes a descent that much better.
Also, it makes me worried because of the environment. Seems like these bikes get their batteries or motors recalled on a weekly basis. But thats a whole another can of worms.
people can have them and have fun. Just makes me think we are 1 step closer to Wall-E though.
So hearing that, I'm curious why you ride mountain bikes instead of trail running or hiking? That same argument has been used to severely limit access for bicycles here in Boulder since the 90s.
So hearing that, I'm curious why you ride mountain bikes instead of trail running or hiking? That same argument has been used to severely limit access...
So hearing that, I'm curious why you ride mountain bikes instead of trail running or hiking? That same argument has been used to severely limit access for bicycles here in Boulder since the 90s.
Could be worse. They could be doing nothing. :)
I don’t get the whole e-bikes are bad sentiment. Sure I agree, you will get a bigger...
Could be worse. They could be doing nothing.
I don’t get the whole e-bikes are bad sentiment. Sure I agree, you will get a bigger workout on a regular bike. for an overweight guy like me who is dead by the time he makes it to the top, to the point where on the fun part ( the descend ) I’m just too rooted and things get sketchy , being able to get some assistance up the hill to then actually enjoy the downhill means I’m actually gonna do it more times and still get what would be a bloody good work out for me. enjoyment means I Keep doing it rather than give up because the uphill is just too tiring to enjoy.. . slowly I’ll be getting fitter and healthier.. In time the assistance I need can reduce.
If anything I see e-bikes as opening up more people to do exercise because they take away some of the horrible bits ( for people who don’t love the burn ) and still allows a decent workout. if skinny fit people want to ebike then great do it, have fun , get up the hill quick and enjoy the descends. They probably have other forms of exercise keeping them fit. Why feel sad.
just my opinion and I’ll proudly ride both an ebike and analogue ..
I guess I should explain my sentiment. Im a personal trainer and I live in a small town. I see a lot of the same people...
I guess I should explain my sentiment. Im a personal trainer and I live in a small town. I see a lot of the same people a lot. Like I said, there are the occasional 50+ year olds who ride a lot with them which is really cool. Or the occasional bigger set guy who probably would not be out riding otherwise. But what Im seeing a lot of people my age (25 or younger) getting really lazy, buying an ebike, never breaking a sweat, and getting fatter. Yeah theyre fun. So are dirtbikes. Sure I could go faster. But I dont need one. I enjoy a climb. Makes a descent that much better.
Also, it makes me worried because of the environment. Seems like these bikes get their batteries or motors recalled on a weekly basis. But thats a whole another can of worms.
people can have them and have fun. Just makes me think we are 1 step closer to Wall-E though.
I don’t know if I buy this argument, I don’t think the evidence would support your characterization.
And just so you know where I’m coming from, I don’t have an e-bike. I do ride my road bike about 15-20 hours per week, mostly all super easy endurance volume that supplements my mountain biking. I do lots of intervals and am generally in such good shape that I won’t ever need to buy an e bike and have no desire to.
My thoughts on the issue you’re raising:
There’s no way people are getting *less healthy* riding e bikes. Even with full pedal assist, you’re still getting significant cardiovascular benefits by raising your heart rate and increasing oxygen demand for your muscles. I doubt people are getting *fatter* because they’re riding e bikes. I would be willing to bet if you actually tracked their body measurements over time, you’d find riding their e-bike would result in 90% of people losing significant amounts of fat and gaining muscle. And the ones who aren’t probably need to adjust the eating patterns, which is not e bike related.
I think the larger issue with e bikes is the following:
Regular mountain biking is hard. Pedaling uphill is tough and it requires a lot of investment in physical fitness that the average American does not have. The people it tends to attract and those who stick with it long term end up developing an appreciation for how precious the opportunity to ride awesome trails in nature is. I personally have been riding since my teens. When I’m out riding, I know how tough it is to build trails because I’ve done it myself; and I am careful to respect my natural and social surroundings.
The problem with e bikes is that they make it very easy to get into mountain biking, so easy that it’s drawing in people who don’t have any similarly strong appreciation of how precious our natural environment is. They’re frequently the ones littering or getting high and bombing trails armored to the gills, caring very little about their impact on their surroundings.
That needs to change. Mountain bike trail infrastructure is not built to handle the huge influx of casual riders that e bikes are developing. I believe the responsibility lies with the e bike manufacturers to adequately fund the development required to manage and support this new type of rider, in terms of trail development, education, etc.
Agreed on the general consensus (I think) that Dale's Maven review was partially flawed as he cut hoses and installed without bleeding originally and didn't follow...
Agreed on the general consensus (I think) that Dale's Maven review was partially flawed as he cut hoses and installed without bleeding originally and didn't follow instructions. I'm not suggesting that he's totally wrong in his findings, but to be taken seriously as a reviewer you can't be cutting hoses and not bleeding brakes/not following manual instructions and planning to not start out using their system rotors. Yes, end customers will do all these incorrect things, but since when have reviewers done the product review doing things wrong because 'that's how the average person will do it'??
To chime in on this, I was aware of the piston massage before I received my set of Mavens for review and had the procedure explained to me prior to setup. I chose to not do it for two reasons.
1) Ive ridden every Avid/SRAM hydraulic brake since the Juicy Seven and have only ever needed to do that procedure when cleaning the pistons, not on a brand new brake setup.
2) The average consumer throws the owners manual away immediately and then starts a forum topic to help fix their problem. I wanted to give that experience a try to see what kind of problems I would run into.
The problems I ran into on my first ride were a wandering bite point and intermittent power which was far from what I expected. I thought the lever felt exactly like a Code for the most part with a pretty firm lever pull. I figured since SRAM pistons are able to rotate slightly within the caliper, its easy for them to drag on the lip of the caliper. The piston massage seems to help eliminate that drag by getting them all centered and moving in the same direction. After the piston massage, the bite point became consistent, and after a few descents, the lever feel lightened up considerably and resulted in my front wheel locking up with pretty minimal effort on steep descents. I think if I had just left them in the stand Id be in agreement that the lever feel didnt change.
That being said, if the brakes that cost twice as much as the Mavens are capable of making more power with less effort I am in no way surprised but also not really interested as I have been perfectly happy with the Mavens and even opted to switch back to Codes on my trail bike for a more usable range of power for the application.
I took Dale's bike for a lap yesterday to try the Mavens. He bled and massaged them and was running 200F/180R rotors. For reference, I run TRP DHR Evos with 200mm rotors on my own bike which I find slightly underpowered although they make up for it with excellent modulation and a light lever feel.
My first thought riding the Mavens was that the power is insane. It felt like someone was throwing a stick in the spokes (not saying this is good or bad, just how it compares to my TRPs). My second thought was WHY IS THE LEVER SO STIFF. They felt the same if not worse than a Code RSC in that regard. That doesn't make them unrideable (I used Code RSCs for 3 seasons), but it's really disappointing that they didn't address the lever feel on this brand new product. It's like when they released the Code Stealth lever last season and only changed the hose routing angle. It was maddening to see them focus solely on an aesthetic change instead of making the brake perform better. Maybe the SRAM engineers prefers a stiffer lever feel or maybe it comes down to technical reasons. But when I see other brands producing brakes with a lighter lever feel, I wonder why doesn't/can't SRAM do the same?
I took Dale's bike for a lap yesterday to try the Mavens. He bled and massaged them and was running 200F/180R rotors. For reference, I run...
I took Dale's bike for a lap yesterday to try the Mavens. He bled and massaged them and was running 200F/180R rotors. For reference, I run TRP DHR Evos with 200mm rotors on my own bike which I find slightly underpowered although they make up for it with excellent modulation and a light lever feel.
My first thought riding the Mavens was that the power is insane. It felt like someone was throwing a stick in the spokes (not saying this is good or bad, just how it compares to my TRPs). My second thought was WHY IS THE LEVER SO STIFF. They felt the same if not worse than a Code RSC in that regard. That doesn't make them unrideable (I used Code RSCs for 3 seasons), but it's really disappointing that they didn't address the lever feel on this brand new product. It's like when they released the Code Stealth lever last season and only changed the hose routing angle. It was maddening to see them focus solely on an aesthetic change instead of making the brake perform better. Maybe the SRAM engineers prefers a stiffer lever feel or maybe it comes down to technical reasons. But when I see other brands producing brakes with a lighter lever feel, I wonder why doesn't/can't SRAM do the same?
On the actual topic of tech rumors and innovations, now that you and Dale are here it's a shame you can't tell us what he was riding
Maybe I'm missing something,
The previous gen boxxer was well within weight for those that wanted a DC enduro fork wasnt it, same with a Dorado?
Like you could trip over the Boxxers for sale on PB if thats the route you wanted to go, and it could be dropped to 180mm, with a lower stack height than the ZEB (so in theory you could run more travel without negatively affecting geo). Dont get me wrong, I toyed with the idea for a Boxxer on my Spire, but the trade-offs for my use case didnt really make sense at the time.
We live in a world where long travel SC forks are so good, I cant see them dying off in favour of "in-between" DC forks. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll put 6 beer (4 tall cans) that we dont see that shift in the next couple years.
Did anyone like the DC Travis? We couldnt give those things away. Pretty sure I have 2 of them in a box in storage somewhere
Other people having fun, that doesnt affect you makes you sad?
Wait until you hear about kids riding dirtbikes.....
Are you a vampire?
Am I the only person who cannot gather up an ounce of excitement for sram maven brakes? WC DH riders were on guides before the new codes came out. The codes are sweet, saints have always been awesome, the new Hayes brakes sound pretty good too. Idk man seems like we are dissecting a product that doesn’t really need to exist.
That's a very good description of them vs a code 👌
Boxxer was 2.6ish kg, sure light enough, but a 2.3kg dc fork would be even better! The previous 36mm Dorado (not the newest 37mm one) is several grams under 3kg - i know, i have one mounted on the front of my bike!). Both are 20mm axles, i like it more than the 15mm standart, but 15mm is the norm in everything except for dh-bikes. If you don’t have a hub like Hope where you could switch just the end caps, then upgrading to such a fork would require a front wheel as well (or at least a hub). As for the dc Travis - this is the fork that hooked me to Manitou like a junkie to cocaine! 🤣 I still remember that friend who lent me his Travis for a weekend more than 15yr ago with the words: “now i’m gonna make you a Manitou fan for life!” (Of course we’re talking about the last one, with the Intrinsic compression - superb performance, trouble-free). That’s why i think Manitou might do a dc-Mezzer - they had a sc Travis and a dc Travis at the same time!
So the bet is on then?
The other part of the equation is master cylinder piston diameter. The smaller it is the more leverage it has over the pistons in the caliper. Think of it like you had interchangeable dropouts on your bike and you added 100mm to the rear end of your bike, that’s going to increase the leverage on the shock. The lower the amount of fluid moved for the same amount of piston movement/lever movement the more hydraulic leverage the master has. Hayes use a 9mm bore in the dominions (as far as I know) which is why they have very high hydraulic leverage with 4 x 17mm pistons. I’ve seen that it’s higher than cura 4 which has 4 x 18mm pistons. It’s actually simple maths once you know the equation. Not that it’s simple to make brakes or anything but the ratios are not complicated, provided you don’t have a variable rate linkage in there. So ipso facto the mavens probably have a largeish master and enormous pistons, so that it has a lot of fluid in the system for heat performance, and the huge pistons are required to increase the ratio. Larger piston means more seal surface area, which means more friction though, hence the wank about seals. It’s all a compromise and the best brakes make the best compromises. Cough* Hayes dominion is the best * cough
@CascadeComponents any thoughts on potentially producing an aftermarket set of cams for the Mavens? I feel like some of the complaints people have had could be tuned out on your end. I've been running your cams in my Codes for a season or so and really enjoy the advanced bite point.
MTB hydraulic brakes are a sensitive and complex system. I don’t think we give them enough credit for what they do, and how well they do it.
But you’re going to lose me when you admit that “probably yes” you shouldn’t have “skipped a step” during install/setup.
Agreed on the general consensus (I think) that Dale's Maven review was partially flawed as he cut hoses and installed without bleeding originally and didn't follow instructions. I'm not suggesting that he's totally wrong in his findings, but to be taken seriously as a reviewer you can't be cutting hoses and not bleeding brakes/not following manual instructions and planning to not start out using their system rotors. Yes, end customers will do all these incorrect things, but since when have reviewers done the product review doing things wrong because 'that's how the average person will do it'??
Definitely going to take a look at them. Hard to say what all will really be possible until can see what the pad retract numbers are. There are some specific things I want to try that could work out quite well knock on wood.
are they having fun riding them, mr sour puss?
Oh, it’s on! 😁 Gotta make a screenshot of it, though! In the beginning of 2026 i’m either drinking your beer and saluting you, or i’m sending you the cans and expecting a drunk happy photo! 😂
Haven't seen it posted but maybe missed it, new YT Tues from Jack Moir's YouTube... well, at least the rear end of it.
Agreed on the cough-cough sentence! 😁 Got them and started raving about them before everybody else went berserk about them! Given i’m a known brake-dragger, i was thinking for ways to improve them (hoses, pads, brake fluid, big rotors), but then i put them through hell and they performed flawlessly, so no need for tuning.
Am i understanding correctly: if we don’t account for heat performance, durability - would Hayes have had an even higher hydraulic leverage with an 8mm bore theoretically?
It was posted earlier in the thread, after this prototype a newer one appeared with an idler peaking out of the cover suggesting they are experimenting with a high-pivot!
My knowledge is superficial at best, but on an MTB my money would be on excessive lever throw and insufficient rollback to go that much further down that path, successfully. Probably need to go down the sram path of bigger pads with higher surface area and correspondingly higher friction (I assume, ignoring any point load considerations). Based on tidbits I’ve read from Jimmy at cascade, post mount packaging is a major limitation.
Could be worse. They could be doing nothing.
I don’t get the whole e-bikes are bad sentiment. Sure I agree, you will get a bigger workout on a regular bike. for an overweight guy like me who is dead by the time he makes it to the top, to the point where on the fun part ( the descend ) I’m just too rooted and things get sketchy , being able to get some assistance up the hill to then actually enjoy the downhill means I’m actually gonna do it more times and still get what would be a bloody good work out for me. enjoyment means I Keep doing it rather than give up because the uphill is just too tiring to enjoy.. . slowly I’ll be getting fitter and healthier.. In time the assistance I need can reduce.
If anything I see e-bikes as opening up more people to do exercise because they take away some of the horrible bits ( for people who don’t love the burn ) and still allows a decent workout. if skinny fit people want to ebike then great do it, have fun , get up the hill quick and enjoy the descends. They probably have other forms of exercise keeping them fit. Why feel sad.
just my opinion and I’ll proudly ride both an ebike and analogue ..
I guess I should explain my sentiment. Im a personal trainer and I live in a small town. I see a lot of the same people a lot. Like I said, there are the occasional 50+ year olds who ride a lot with them which is really cool. Or the occasional bigger set guy who probably would not be out riding otherwise. But what Im seeing a lot of people my age (25 or younger) getting really lazy, buying an ebike, never breaking a sweat, and getting fatter. Yeah theyre fun. So are dirtbikes. Sure I could go faster. But I dont need one. I enjoy a climb. Makes a descent that much better.
Also, it makes me worried because of the environment. Seems like these bikes get their batteries or motors recalled on a weekly basis. But thats a whole another can of worms.
people can have them and have fun. Just makes me think we are 1 step closer to Wall-E though.
So hearing that, I'm curious why you ride mountain bikes instead of trail running or hiking? That same argument has been used to severely limit access for bicycles here in Boulder since the 90s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddWC_aAK7hk
I don’t know if I buy this argument, I don’t think the evidence would support your characterization.
And just so you know where I’m coming from, I don’t have an e-bike. I do ride my road bike about 15-20 hours per week, mostly all super easy endurance volume that supplements my mountain biking. I do lots of intervals and am generally in such good shape that I won’t ever need to buy an e bike and have no desire to.
My thoughts on the issue you’re raising:
There’s no way people are getting *less healthy* riding e bikes. Even with full pedal assist, you’re still getting significant cardiovascular benefits by raising your heart rate and increasing oxygen demand for your muscles. I doubt people are getting *fatter* because they’re riding e bikes. I would be willing to bet if you actually tracked their body measurements over time, you’d find riding their e-bike would result in 90% of people losing significant amounts of fat and gaining muscle. And the ones who aren’t probably need to adjust the eating patterns, which is not e bike related.
I think the larger issue with e bikes is the following:
Regular mountain biking is hard. Pedaling uphill is tough and it requires a lot of investment in physical fitness that the average American does not have. The people it tends to attract and those who stick with it long term end up developing an appreciation for how precious the opportunity to ride awesome trails in nature is. I personally have been riding since my teens. When I’m out riding, I know how tough it is to build trails because I’ve done it myself; and I am careful to respect my natural and social surroundings.
The problem with e bikes is that they make it very easy to get into mountain biking, so easy that it’s drawing in people who don’t have any similarly strong appreciation of how precious our natural environment is. They’re frequently the ones littering or getting high and bombing trails armored to the gills, caring very little about their impact on their surroundings.
That needs to change. Mountain bike trail infrastructure is not built to handle the huge influx of casual riders that e bikes are developing. I believe the responsibility lies with the e bike manufacturers to adequately fund the development required to manage and support this new type of rider, in terms of trail development, education, etc.
Sorry to detail the rumors thread. Back to rumors:
hope that new altitude comes out today
Moimoi’s bike does not have an idler and Vali’s does (or did).
To chime in on this, I was aware of the piston massage before I received my set of Mavens for review and had the procedure explained to me prior to setup. I chose to not do it for two reasons.
1) Ive ridden every Avid/SRAM hydraulic brake since the Juicy Seven and have only ever needed to do that procedure when cleaning the pistons, not on a brand new brake setup.
2) The average consumer throws the owners manual away immediately and then starts a forum topic to help fix their problem. I wanted to give that experience a try to see what kind of problems I would run into.
The problems I ran into on my first ride were a wandering bite point and intermittent power which was far from what I expected. I thought the lever felt exactly like a Code for the most part with a pretty firm lever pull. I figured since SRAM pistons are able to rotate slightly within the caliper, its easy for them to drag on the lip of the caliper. The piston massage seems to help eliminate that drag by getting them all centered and moving in the same direction. After the piston massage, the bite point became consistent, and after a few descents, the lever feel lightened up considerably and resulted in my front wheel locking up with pretty minimal effort on steep descents. I think if I had just left them in the stand Id be in agreement that the lever feel didnt change.
That being said, if the brakes that cost twice as much as the Mavens are capable of making more power with less effort I am in no way surprised but also not really interested as I have been perfectly happy with the Mavens and even opted to switch back to Codes on my trail bike for a more usable range of power for the application.
I took Dale's bike for a lap yesterday to try the Mavens. He bled and massaged them and was running 200F/180R rotors. For reference, I run TRP DHR Evos with 200mm rotors on my own bike which I find slightly underpowered although they make up for it with excellent modulation and a light lever feel.
My first thought riding the Mavens was that the power is insane. It felt like someone was throwing a stick in the spokes (not saying this is good or bad, just how it compares to my TRPs). My second thought was WHY IS THE LEVER SO STIFF. They felt the same if not worse than a Code RSC in that regard. That doesn't make them unrideable (I used Code RSCs for 3 seasons), but it's really disappointing that they didn't address the lever feel on this brand new product. It's like when they released the Code Stealth lever last season and only changed the hose routing angle. It was maddening to see them focus solely on an aesthetic change instead of making the brake perform better. Maybe the SRAM engineers prefers a stiffer lever feel or maybe it comes down to technical reasons. But when I see other brands producing brakes with a lighter lever feel, I wonder why doesn't/can't SRAM do the same?
On the actual topic of tech rumors and innovations, now that you and Dale are here it's a shame you can't tell us what he was riding
Thought you had to be banging the boss to get one of these.
Ed?