The Bikeconomics (Mega)Thread

Glory831Guy
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145
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10/21/2023
Location
Santa Cruz, CA US
1/25/2024 2:39pm
Fox wrote:
It will be very interesting to see what happens to SC with all these changes. I believe JG was a big force behind keeping SC in...

It will be very interesting to see what happens to SC with all these changes. I believe JG was a big force behind keeping SC in SC, CA. Running a business in CA is tough. Cost of living is brutal. Taxes are brutal. From a pure bean counter perspective it probably makes more sense to move the company out of Santa Cruz, at which point, is it still Santa Cruz? So many great, iconic bikes over the years... can they keep it going? I hope so, cuz I like the brand.

Their sales/demo rides ratio is probably a lot better in Santa Cruz than it would be if they go full bean counter and move to wherever has the cheapest rent.

2
1/25/2024 5:54pm

You think Graney got outed or decided to step away? 

dolface
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CA US
1/25/2024 6:37pm Edited Date/Time 1/25/2024 6:38pm

You think Graney got outed or decided to step away? 

BGoldstone wrote:

Big grain fo salt w/ that one: "...to spend more time with his family" is often corporate-speak for "fired"...

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1
1/25/2024 7:14pm

You think Graney got outed or decided to step away? 

BGoldstone wrote:
dolface wrote:

Big grain fo salt w/ that one: "...to spend more time with his family" is often corporate-speak for "fired"...

Not to speak for Graney but I can imagine him wanting to walk away and be smart enough to know when. 
 

I left the industry pre-Rona but can’t believe many folks are having fun. Sounds like a good time to ride out to the sunset. 

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1
jonkranked
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Norristown, PA US
1/26/2024 6:13am
dolface wrote:

Big grain fo salt w/ that one: "...to spend more time with his family" is often corporate-speak for "fired"...

not fired..... but "allowed to resign" to avoid the career issues that come with being fired.  

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dolface
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CA US
1/26/2024 6:17am
dolface wrote:

Big grain fo salt w/ that one: "...to spend more time with his family" is often corporate-speak for "fired"...

jonkranked wrote:

not fired..... but "allowed to resign" to avoid the career issues that come with being fired.  

A distinction without a difference? Wink 

2
1
jonkranked
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Location
Norristown, PA US
1/26/2024 6:21am
dolface wrote:
A distinction without a difference?  

A distinction without a difference? Wink 

its much easier to explain a voluntary resignation than an involuntary termination to a new employer. 

2
hogfly
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Fayetteville, AR US
1/26/2024 7:52am Edited Date/Time 1/26/2024 7:55am
Fox wrote:
It will be very interesting to see what happens to SC with all these changes. I believe JG was a big force behind keeping SC in...

It will be very interesting to see what happens to SC with all these changes. I believe JG was a big force behind keeping SC in SC, CA. Running a business in CA is tough. Cost of living is brutal. Taxes are brutal. From a pure bean counter perspective it probably makes more sense to move the company out of Santa Cruz, at which point, is it still Santa Cruz? So many great, iconic bikes over the years... can they keep it going? I hope so, cuz I like the brand.

Possibly.... but GT (owned by PON as well) just moved their headquarters TO California (from shared facilities with Cannondale in Connecticut).

 

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mickey
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Roanoke, VA US
1/26/2024 8:02am Edited Date/Time 1/26/2024 8:03am
hogfly wrote:

Possibly.... but GT (owned by PON as well) just moved their headquarters TO California (from shared facilities with Cannondale in Connecticut).

 

Cannondale was also moved from the Bethel train station to Wilton, literally up the street from the aerospace company that used to manufacture all the Cannondale tubes.   You think the California coast is expensive?   Try the CT coast!  The Dutch would be doing Cannondale employees a favor by firing them all, it’s not exactly possible to make a living in the bike industry living in the same county as most of the hedge fund magnates.

Pon has built a proper assembly factory outside the port of Savannah, GA(the 2nd most trafficked intermodal shipping port these days)… One would assume that eventually almost every domestic job for GT/Cannondale/Cervelo/Santa Cruz will be consolidated there.

2
thresh
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Location
San Jose, CA US
1/26/2024 10:30am Edited Date/Time 1/26/2024 10:32am

I don't really understand what happened (or happens) to Orange.

 

Mr Ashley Ball seems to be an owner of P Bairstow Limited (which I understand is basically a factory that produces stuff): https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/0070… and this company was, indeed, in the administration.

He also was/is a Director for Orange Mountain Bikes limited, which was also in an administration: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/0228… .  Orange Mountain Bikes Limited is/was owned is by O21C Holdings Limited, which is also owned by mr Ashley Ball: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/0973…

So... What changed?

2
1/26/2024 10:43am
thresh wrote:
I don't really understand what happened (or happens) to Orange.   Mr Ashley Ball seems to be an owner of P Bairstow Limited (which I understand...

I don't really understand what happened (or happens) to Orange.

 

Mr Ashley Ball seems to be an owner of P Bairstow Limited (which I understand is basically a factory that produces stuff): https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/0070… and this company was, indeed, in the administration.

He also was/is a Director for Orange Mountain Bikes limited, which was also in an administration: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/0228… .  Orange Mountain Bikes Limited is/was owned is by O21C Holdings Limited, which is also owned by mr Ashley Ball: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/0973…

So... What changed?

Well, from the press release, it sounds like they're moving everything into one building. Aside from changing the names and legal ownership of things, perhaps the reduced rent/overhead or the potential sale value of the other building is enough to make them financially solvent again on paper? IDK.

1
thresh
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San Jose, CA US
1/26/2024 10:52am Edited Date/Time 1/26/2024 10:53am

That sounds like to good to be true that some savings on leasing the offices and shipping components 2 miles can be just a life saver for the company - but maybe so.

The comments on pink bike suggest that the Bairstow business was sold to Orange - and the debts of the factory are written off - and I'm really surprised this thing is even allowed!  Seems creditors or alu suppliers are screwed?  Well good luck ordering that nice metal again from them.

I mean, that's good for the folk that work for Orange (at least in the short term), but I don't really see how this ceremonial changing of the guards (which never really changed) with debts disappearance can work in the long term?

2
1/26/2024 8:47pm

You think Graney got outed or decided to step away? 

BGoldstone wrote:
dolface wrote:

Big grain fo salt w/ that one: "...to spend more time with his family" is often corporate-speak for "fired"...

Fired guys don't stay around in an advisory position.  Sounds like he'll be making a board of directors paycheck for a certain period.  The old get paid to play some golf and answer some emails.  Sounds like Joe has made what he needs to retire and is entering the next chapter of his life.

 

Santa Cruz stopped being the "cool brand" when they lost the 5150 crew to competitors and stopped showing partying in the Syndicate videos.  They are doing just fine.  But they have lost the interest of the "party in the woods" crowd to steal a catchphrase from a "core" brand.  The bikes are really good even if it they've become a bit redundant and that's all they need to maintain a good market share.

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3
1llumA
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CA
1/26/2024 9:44pm
Fired guys don't stay around in an advisory position.  Sounds like he'll be making a board of directors paycheck for a certain period.  The old get...

Fired guys don't stay around in an advisory position.  Sounds like he'll be making a board of directors paycheck for a certain period.  The old get paid to play some golf and answer some emails.  Sounds like Joe has made what he needs to retire and is entering the next chapter of his life.

 

Santa Cruz stopped being the "cool brand" when they lost the 5150 crew to competitors and stopped showing partying in the Syndicate videos.  They are doing just fine.  But they have lost the interest of the "party in the woods" crowd to steal a catchphrase from a "core" brand.  The bikes are really good even if it they've become a bit redundant and that's all they need to maintain a good market share.

Is it really losing the 5150 crew to competition when almost all of them are still running reserve wheels and are still on PON owned brands just not Santa Cruz ?

5
Maxipedia
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Brașov RO
1/26/2024 10:57pm
Fired guys don't stay around in an advisory position.  Sounds like he'll be making a board of directors paycheck for a certain period.  The old get...

Fired guys don't stay around in an advisory position.  Sounds like he'll be making a board of directors paycheck for a certain period.  The old get paid to play some golf and answer some emails.  Sounds like Joe has made what he needs to retire and is entering the next chapter of his life.

 

Santa Cruz stopped being the "cool brand" when they lost the 5150 crew to competitors and stopped showing partying in the Syndicate videos.  They are doing just fine.  But they have lost the interest of the "party in the woods" crowd to steal a catchphrase from a "core" brand.  The bikes are really good even if it they've become a bit redundant and that's all they need to maintain a good market share.

I'm pretty sure you mean the 50to01 crew and correct me if I'm wrong but that crew also engulfs the Cannondale Waves guys around Josh Bryceland. Cannondale and Santa Cruz are both owned by Pon, so those are not exactly ”competitors”. Honestly, I'm not very sure who is in the 50to01 crew and who is not and what bikes they are all riding these days. Did my due diligence, tried to find out quickly on their page and FB/IG, bur couldn't find much and it is not that important to me. I'm sure people over here know better.

Mx

2
hogfly
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Location
Fayetteville, AR US
1/27/2024 5:55am
Fired guys don't stay around in an advisory position.  Sounds like he'll be making a board of directors paycheck for a certain period.  The old get...

Fired guys don't stay around in an advisory position.  Sounds like he'll be making a board of directors paycheck for a certain period.  The old get paid to play some golf and answer some emails.  Sounds like Joe has made what he needs to retire and is entering the next chapter of his life.

 

Santa Cruz stopped being the "cool brand" when they lost the 5150 crew to competitors and stopped showing partying in the Syndicate videos.  They are doing just fine.  But they have lost the interest of the "party in the woods" crowd to steal a catchphrase from a "core" brand.  The bikes are really good even if it they've become a bit redundant and that's all they need to maintain a good market share.

Maxipedia wrote:
I'm pretty sure you mean the 50to01 crew and correct me if I'm wrong but that crew also engulfs the Cannondale Waves guys around Josh Bryceland...

I'm pretty sure you mean the 50to01 crew and correct me if I'm wrong but that crew also engulfs the Cannondale Waves guys around Josh Bryceland. Cannondale and Santa Cruz are both owned by Pon, so those are not exactly ”competitors”. Honestly, I'm not very sure who is in the 50to01 crew and who is not and what bikes they are all riding these days. Did my due diligence, tried to find out quickly on their page and FB/IG, bur couldn't find much and it is not that important to me. I'm sure people over here know better.

Mx

No skin in the game, but:

Josh "Loosedog" Lewis is now on Scor

Dan "Donny Solja" Paley is on Giant.

Craig Evans on Airdrop

Once Bryceland broke off Santa Cruz, it sort of opened the floodgates. There are still quite a few of the crew on PON brands, but they've expanded the collective into its own merch and content "brand" without any real frame company affiliation.

 

2
jeff.brines
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Grand Junction, CO US
1/27/2024 6:49am

Few broad (highly speculative) thoughts as it pertains to Santa Cruz. 

First, I think its a bit of a fool's errand to say a brand is no longer "core" because they've grown or a more affluent buyer all of a sudden has taken interest. Yeah, maybe its a little bit of a sell-out type of thing to see 52 year old dentists driving Sprinter vans owning  your product, but my Brother in Christ, this is capitalism. To a degree this is the point. To add, the entire company is owned by a multinational conglomerate. So any thoughts of "soul" or "core" in this regard sailed a long time ago. That said, what really made SC so cool over the years has less to with the end buyer of the product and a lot more to do with their core values within the company. They always seemed to be engineering first, performance at all costs, do whatever it takes to build the best bikes on the hill type of a company. Who can forget them rolling out the first V10 (my GAWD that was a beast), the Bullit with Super Ts, the first do-it-all Nomad, their revised Nomad, the 29" V10 bla bla bla bla. 

Is this gone? I don't know. That is probably worthy of a thread all its own .

I can say its a little interesting to see them lose Greg like they did (Rob never would have let that happen), then Joe steps down. As to if that was voluntary or forced, I'd bet the latter, but I can't tell. This is a spectrum type of thing. You can be asked to step down as CEO but retain a role in the company (consulting or otherwise). This doesn't mean it was your choice btw, and would result in firing if you weren't willing to do as you were asked. 

My guess, broadly speaking, PON wants to see a gross/net margin improvement within the brand. They have put a lot of time and money into growing and solidifying SC as a premier mountain bike company and now they want to harvest. Joe isn't the guy to be the kind of operator they need, and things like keeping a forty something year old expensive racer on the books no longer makes sense as they pivot to putting free cash flow above all else. I wouldn't be surprised to see budgets slashed everywhere in part due to the state of the industry and in part due to transitioning the brand out of a growth phase and into a profit optimization phase. 

If I'm right, this could impact the core values of the brand that we've all grown to love. It could impact how much budget they put behind things like engineering the best race bikes. Then again, perhaps that ground isn't as fertile as it once was. 

One thing I find so fascinating about anything like this in business, is how wide of a "time lens" someone must have to fully appreciate the levers management pulls on. While these changes may mean nothing in the short term, they could have massive impacts on the longer term. 

Time will tell...

13
pinkrobe
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Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
1/27/2024 8:35am

@jeff.brines "...my Brother in Christ, this is capitalism..."

TESTIFY!

2
1/27/2024 7:55pm
Fired guys don't stay around in an advisory position.  Sounds like he'll be making a board of directors paycheck for a certain period.  The old get...

Fired guys don't stay around in an advisory position.  Sounds like he'll be making a board of directors paycheck for a certain period.  The old get paid to play some golf and answer some emails.  Sounds like Joe has made what he needs to retire and is entering the next chapter of his life.

 

Santa Cruz stopped being the "cool brand" when they lost the 5150 crew to competitors and stopped showing partying in the Syndicate videos.  They are doing just fine.  But they have lost the interest of the "party in the woods" crowd to steal a catchphrase from a "core" brand.  The bikes are really good even if it they've become a bit redundant and that's all they need to maintain a good market share.

Maxipedia wrote:
I'm pretty sure you mean the 50to01 crew and correct me if I'm wrong but that crew also engulfs the Cannondale Waves guys around Josh Bryceland...

I'm pretty sure you mean the 50to01 crew and correct me if I'm wrong but that crew also engulfs the Cannondale Waves guys around Josh Bryceland. Cannondale and Santa Cruz are both owned by Pon, so those are not exactly ”competitors”. Honestly, I'm not very sure who is in the 50to01 crew and who is not and what bikes they are all riding these days. Did my due diligence, tried to find out quickly on their page and FB/IG, bur couldn't find much and it is not that important to me. I'm sure people over here know better.

Mx

I did mean 50-01 but guess I got Van Halen on the brain.

sspomer
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6/26/2009
Location
Boise, ID US
1/30/2024 9:37am

this isn't a perfect fit for this thread, but i'd wager most in here find it interesting. a bike shipping fiasco for racers using a service called tribike transport. if this is old news, apologies, it was randomly fed into my algorithm

 

4
matmattmatthew
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Location
Fresh Prince of Bel Air, MD US
1/30/2024 10:10am

Damn, I knew Triathletes have money but $800 to ship your bike???  I flew with my bike to Sedona last year and the airline counted it as a checked bag, I didn't pay anything.  And when I went to Iceland it was only $75 each way.  

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Big Bird
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Oceano, CA US
1/30/2024 10:11am

I watched this just now before coming here. Great minds think alike.

2
1/30/2024 11:51am

Deviate are trying to raise funds by selling shares... Please don't die.

6
Simcik
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Location
Loma, CO US
1/30/2024 12:06pm
Damn, I knew Triathletes have money but $800 to ship your bike???  I flew with my bike to Sedona last year and the airline counted it...

Damn, I knew Triathletes have money but $800 to ship your bike???  I flew with my bike to Sedona last year and the airline counted it as a checked bag, I didn't pay anything.  And when I went to Iceland it was only $75 each way.  

With proper tools and knowhow, it is easy for most of us to travel with our bike. And it is reasonably inexpensive.

There are a number of triathletes who are less comfortable with building and working on their bikes, I think that is likely why this shipping program appealed to them. 

I worked at a shop in Boulder and there were a few Tri racers would would come in every few weeks to have their bike prepped (wheels and such swapped) from training to racing. Then right after the race they'd come back in and have their training set up installed. This was always like $100 minimum. They paid it without question each time. 

To deal with packaging and shipping a tri bike with deep dish or even a delicate disc wheel, bar extensions or weird bars, seatmast... it gets to be a lot for some people. 

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Big Bird
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Location
Oceano, CA US
1/30/2024 3:33pm

I've met road riders who don't know how to change a flat.

10
Verbl Kint
Posts
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9/13/2013
Location
Quezon City PH
1/30/2024 6:19pm
Big Bird wrote:

I've met road riders who don't know how to change a flat.

HIlarious but true.  I once pulled over on a countryside road to help this guy out with a flat tire.  It turns out he didn't bring a multi-tool with him because he didn't know what to do with it in the first place.

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Kusa
Posts
277
Joined
6/25/2010
Location
CH
1/30/2024 7:09pm
Damn, I knew Triathletes have money but $800 to ship your bike???  I flew with my bike to Sedona last year and the airline counted it...

Damn, I knew Triathletes have money but $800 to ship your bike???  I flew with my bike to Sedona last year and the airline counted it as a checked bag, I didn't pay anything.  And when I went to Iceland it was only $75 each way.  

Bikeflights which uses UPS as a delivery company will charge you 1K for a bike insured for 5K to fly it one way to the EU (door to door).

 

2
pinkrobe
Posts
264
Joined
5/16/2015
Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
1/30/2024 7:23pm
Big Bird wrote:

I've met road riders who don't know how to change a flat.

Verbl Kint wrote:
HIlarious but true.  I once pulled over on a countryside road to help this guy out with a flat tire.  It turns out he didn't bring...

HIlarious but true.  I once pulled over on a countryside road to help this guy out with a flat tire.  It turns out he didn't bring a multi-tool with him because he didn't know what to do with it in the first place.

Let's not pretend mountain bikers are any better. The number of people I've had to assist trailside who had no clue what a barrel adjuster was or how to put a tire back on a rim is kind of nuts. 

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